So why on earth should I use speeders at all?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

 

Why I said that the MM AC Speeder is 'awkward' (well, that is what I meant, even though that is not literally what I said :P ) is because if you have a shooty Speeder, it should be used at arms length.

The Typhoon is beautiful at this. Sadly, our 4th ed. Codices get the lame s5 version. Boo.

But that is my best case example, anyway.

 

A Melta is most a Melta when in half range. >12" is slightly better than a LC, yes, but a LC is not a ferocious weapon. I love LCs, don't get me wrong. But 48" range is part of the appeal. The killiness needs the range to become most mouth-watering.

 

My MM HF Speeders are flying over Rhinos or DSing, so this could be a fundamental difference between us ~ the cause of our differing opinions. I have no want of a wafting (6" skimmer move) gunship. I need MM to rip tanks. Ravenwing don't play as the "go for the jugular" force that BT often play as. So a wafting gunship does suit RW much more ;)

My Speeders are either opening a transport for a Crusader squad, or HF infantry prior to the Crusaders volley and charging them. The are paced by the Rhino rush.

 

This may come over as mean, but hopefully I'll say it gently enough. Just because your foes have "a thing" about the AC doesn't mean it is the Katana to the MM's Wakizashi. It just means they identify it as such.

Does that make sense? Just because they get nervous about the AC, does not mean it is the biggest threat.

It might be, and I am not actually wanting to argue that, I am just saying what is seen is not always the most true thing :)

 

I am a BT player, and so will miss things that are important to RW play :P

[Grand Master Raziel]

@ GM Raziel,

 

Sorry but I have to laugh when someone says oh 100 points is expensive... you should spend 100 points. Not to offend you, but you may have noticed that he is running a pure RW list. If your suggestion is based on the opinion that pure RW sucks and he should therefore run something akin to a White Scar list, then I am afraid that you are greatly mistaken by the power of RW.

 

What, the Master of the Ravenwing can't call on support from the rest of the Chapter? :lol: Besides, you're cherry-picking my comments to suit how you want to respond. My initial suggestion was to replace the Attack Squadron-attached Speeders with another Attack Squadron. How is that anti-Ravenwing?

 

As for Speeders with assault cannons, they're just horrendously overpriced. There's no way an AV10/10/10 platform with HB+AC is worth 100pts when you can get an AV13/11/10 platform with 2xHBs and an autocannon for 95pts. Being a Fast vehicle matters very little in the comparison - sure, you can move the Speeder 6" and fire everything, but with the ranges on the dakka Pred's weaponry, you're scarcely ever going to have to move that platform at all. I'm not saying you have to take Preds to make the list as effective as possible. What I am saying is that you should take something that isn't so horrendously overpriced. Add more Bikes, or add some Speeders to your Support Squadrons. Both the Typhoon and the heavy flamer are better buys than the assault cannon.

 

I'm actually very fond of Speeders. I don't have as many as you, but I could put 7 on the table on short notice - 8 if I include my Tempest. I've been a fan of them since 3rd edition. However, I've found the performance of the HB+AC Tornado to be completely inadequate, even in the 4th edition days when you could move it 12" and fire everything and the AC had the 4th edition Rending rule. The single best use for Speeders is tank hunting with multimeltas. Melta-armed Speeders will give you an alpha strike that should make wrecks of your opponent's most important vehicles. I'm personally a fan of spending a few more points to add the heavy flamer, where applicable, because it gives the Speeder a backup weapon, should it survive longer than all your opponent's vehicles, or if you're playing a smartypants who isn't using any. Granted, you're rarely going to use both weapons in a single turn, but you're not often going to need to. Both weapons are high-impact, the MM capable of slagging any vehicle in the game, the HF a terror to anything without at least a 3+ save, and even against MEQ troops it can do respectable damage, should you be able to catch them bunched up. The upside to expecting to use either one or the other weapon as opposed to both is that you can always move the Speeder up to 12", which affords it some protection against being assaulted. I can't speak as knowledgably on the subject of the RW Typhoon, but at least it's cheaper than the AC-toter, and it has a better standoff range, as Breng77 pointed out.

 

Unfortunately, we as DA (and successor) players are saddled with some peculiarities when it comes to our squadrons. We can't take squadrons comprised solely of Typhoons or Tornados unless we take single-speeder squadrons. In general, I think Codex: Dark Angels is a pretty elegant dex within the context of its design paradigm, but JJ's attempt to make the RW Support Squadron resemble a Tactical Squad is a little clumsy, and forces some annoying list selection decisions on us that vanilla players don't have to face. Also, having to spend 100pts to take the Speeder in the RW Attack Squadrons is forcing a heavily overpriced upgrade on a unit that's already frightfully expensive. I'd be much happier if we could take the base 65pt speeder (so long as it could be given a multimelta), and then given the option of upgrading to either a Typhoon or a Tornado, or even just an AC Tornado, as long as the AC upgrade were optional and not forced down our throats. Then, I'd happily advocate taking the Speeder in the Attack Squadron. As things currently stand, I can't consider that points well spent, and will only advocate taking Speeders in the Support Squadrons, to avoid the overpriced AC-Tornado.

[krewl]

MM/HF speeders are (In my pure RW lists) more a MM delivery platform, working in tandem with my MMattack bikes. the HF is there for the oppertunity shots which you get 1 or maybe 2 times a game.

 

In general, my attack bikes and MM speeders go together, placement is very important in this so that you can use all those separate shots to really get the most dead/stunned tanks out of them. (So shoot the ones with minimal options first, and always have backup targets for the others further away, maximising the special/heavy weapon firepower RW can bring.)

 

So the MM\/HF speeder works in a totally different way then the speeder swarm, and neither should be discussed as bad as suchs.

The MM/HF I have are the only 2 speeders in my list configured that way, and they add value to my army. Building a speeder heavy army is a totally different animal, especially as you move them in a group (Or "murder" which has a nice ring to it.)

 

The way I like to build a pure RW list is a maxed squad with banner & apothecary, 2 plasma guns here joined by a chaplain on bike.

Then Sammy on the jetbike for the plasma template and supporting CC duties. (He can hardly take uit a squad of firewarriors on his own, use him wisely.) and strangly enough, he also acts as a fire magnet because he cannot join squads, but in doing this he tends to soak up a lot because he has to get 3 wounds before he dies (Mantle, t5, 4+ inv and sometimes turboboost save makes him quite survivable.)

So I am ok loosing him now and then.

I fill in the rest with troop slots with 3 man bike squads, to get as many attack bikes with MM as I can ( 5 in this case) and add 2 MM/HF speeders and that's 1700 points.

 

I also take a fist in the banner squad, and powerweapons/meltabombs on the sarges in the mini squads.

Sometimes I take 1 mini squad with 2 flamers, they play to threaten flaming a unit and hide more then they actually close in and use them, as suchs they tend stay alive for objectives quite often.

 

Also remember that fearless in this is not an issue. If in CC that you didn't choose and you lose by any number your mini squad is dead already anyways 99% of the time. On the + side, that I feel weighs in a lot more, one leftover fearless biker somewhere has often claimed an objective of saved a killpoint by a quick turboboost. Do not underestimate the power of troops always doing what you want them to untill they are dead.

[Azoriel]

Unfortunately, we as DA (and successor) players are saddled with some peculiarities when it comes to our squadrons. We can't take squadrons comprised solely of Typhoons or Tornados unless we take single-speeder squadrons.

 

This may seem like cheating, but, according to IA2Update28Aug, you can get away with using C:SM style landspeeders in a pure C:DA list. You'll still be stuck with using the Typhoon missile launcher from C:DA, but you can at least group up squads of Tornadoes (at a slightly better cost).