How do you use speed bumps?

[Warprat]

So, we all face games when we are overpowered by close combat oriented armies. Lately, I have been experimenting with combat squads. The supporting heavy weapon halves shoot thier plasma cannons, while the point squads (flamer/combi-flamers) go forward to slow the enemy down.

 

My point squads have been dying at an unusually fast rate recently... one assault, and then they are gone. Which is OK, if they can hold up something nasty for a turn, to be fired upon.

 

I tend to place my point squads in terrain gaps, while trying to shelter them from whatever long range firepower is out there. My heavies usually knock out the enemy transports. When his squads near my position, I take the double flamer shots and rapid fire. Then the squad gets munched. Or it retreats and the enemy catches it and gains a consolidation move closer to my heavies.

 

Rhinos would be very usefull here, to plug the gaps, and provide some manuever and cover. So, far I have been using all foot...

 

 

I am thinking that perhaps a less direct approach may be better, such as manuvering to the side of the gap, with a flanking move, such that the ememy must now decide to hit my point squad, or risk it plinking at them as they move forward.

 

 

What are some of the ways you use your troops to slow down more powerful enemy units? Do you find vehicles to be invaluable?

 

 

Thanks!

 

Warprat ;)

[Tanhausen]

Interesting issue...I've got the same problem, mainly vs 2 units:

 

1.- Juggernauts (don't know the unit name in English): WS5, T5, 2W and the get +1Ini (to a 5) and +1S (to a 5) when assaulting...and they also have something like 4++! When combined with Tzeentch (big bird) that allows ++ re-rolls... you have to kill the unit some 21351245 times before you actually do something! They are extremely mobile, tough and honestly, don't know how to deal with them :P

 

2.- Canis+15 wolves: if you are IG, easy way out... just kill 4 wolves, use psych to lower LD to 0 and off the table they go! With marines... templates are your best friends, but they can reach you turn 1 into assault...the key is having them check LD!

 

I know its not a "speed-bump" comment, but I believe it's in the line ;)

[Fatuous]

As a new marines player this is something I'm still learning to deal with, as I'm used (IG back ground) to having large, cheap blobs with commissars ready to take the wind out of CC specialists sails, loose some guys, but not go anywhere for a turn or 2.

 

With marines, everything being smaller squad sized and much more expensive, I'm not sure the best options. The problem with using tac squads, especially combat squaded is you pretty much have to put the offensive elements (sarge, and special weapon) in to those point squads, which if you are putting them up against CC specialists, they won't really stand much chance against. So you loose them pretty easily as they are only 5 guys, plus you loose the leadership of the vet sarge, and any upgrades you may have paid for to make them more combat effiecent are also lost.

 

Even worse, they are scoring troop choices that are lost and in KP games, combat squading is rarely a good idea. If you take a lot of tac squads (4 or more) then this loss isn't such a problem, but they still aren't all that disposable either.

 

I've read an interesting tactic using a scout squad (can't remember where I read it now, otherwise I'd provide a link, but will try to describe it as well as possible).

 

Take a full 10 man scout squad, add cloaks if you are feeling generous (perhaps just on the 5 man sniper/HW squad assuming that is allowed). Give 4 sniper rifles and upgrade 1 to a ML or HB to taste (HB if you want anti horde/inf, ML for flexibility). Give 4 combat blades, maybe throw in a couple of shot guns if you like them, then tool up the sarge for CC, either power weapon and bolt pistol, or power fist and either shot gun or combi weapon depending on how much you want to splash out on this unit.

 

Deploy these guys centre table, or somewhere mid field, in cover. It is quite possible (even likely against some opponents) that you will only be able to infiltrate 6" out of your DZ but it is still a buffer worth having. Place the sniper CS in some cover, ideally in an elevate position, ruins are great for this. Use the sarge CS as a body guard unit, on the lower floors to take the charge, or to move forward and enage units if they get too close to rob them of their charge bonus. Scouts aren't ideal CC troops, but they can dish out some pain. In some ways it can be even better to let them assualt you instead, as they won't be able to get at the snipers (positioning of your units is key here, not to let any enemies slip through gaps to engage both CSs), who can keep firing, and will have to kill both scout CSs before they can really advance forwards, or risk being pot shotted by ML/hellfire HB rounds.

 

This is a reletively cheap unit, keeping it bare bones, 165 points for 10 guys, 1 heavy weapon and a power weapon. It won't always attract attention. Your opponent may choice to simply ignore them, as what, a BS3 heavy and a few snipers isn't all that scary, and could potentially be ignored, but that isnt such a big problem either, as you will get some hits in a full game, and they can always relocate for objective grabbing, or move out to go and attack instead. You can always add in a cheap LSS and hold it in reserve, ready to move on to your table edge and pick up a scout CS later game. You can even try a similar tactic with a tac squad, but of course, they have to deploy in your DZ.

 

In KP games you can keep them as 1 larger unit, firing the snipers and heavy till people get close enough and then charge them (snipers still have BPs) or again, let them charge you instead of throwing your unit at them, which should hold them up a little longer, as they wont hit you in your turn.(*)

 

Of course, this doesn't counter act the KP and troop loss issues, but as long as you have other troops (IE take this squad for a buffer as well as your regular troop choices) then it won't whittle your troops down too much. It can work with out combat squading too, but looses the flexibility that makes the ML effective. As usual, multiples work better than a single unit and still don't cost all that much (330 points for 20 guys isn't too bad an investment, and can cover more of the table, possibly getitng you another turn or 2 to keep firing as they advance).

 

Other options, not including troop options.

 

A dreadnaught in a droppod (MM with HF would work well) to pod in turn 1 and cause disruption, taking on a unit of troops with HF, or taking out a tank or transport with MM. These do drop to power fists, so some care is required in target selection, but anything less than s6 can't even touch it in CC, if in doubt, take an ironclad, more attacks, and even better armour, and you can add hunter killers to pop some transports if you want to.

 

Stern guard. Either in a pod or with out. Give the sarge a lightening claw and sprinkle in some combi flamers and meltas for versatility. With a big unit (ok, this is costing more points now) you can combat squad on to either side of the pod, and should be able to get enough distance between the 2 to avoid multi combats that drag them both in. Sternguard get quite a few attacks too, and if CS'd, 1 can fire with combi meltas, and the other with combi flamers.

 

CC terminators, advance forwards and take the charge. They'll need a powerful CC unit to take them down, or to engage them with multiple units (of course, if not agaisnt CC armies, these may just get plasma'd off the table, but a mix of 2 lightening claws and 3 TH/SS work quite well I think).

 

Regular terminators. Advance them upfield shooting, and engage in CC, be even more wary of plasma and melta guns aswith out storm shields their inv save won't protect them all that much. I like cyclone ML but heavy flamers are nice and cheap. As yet, I find assualt cannon a bit...... well, under whelming.

 

Or take the fight to them! Add in lysander to a reg termie squad, he can take the lascannon, plasma and melta shots in his stride (just so long as the squad isn't hit with too many in 1 go), and adds some serious CC punch, and bolter drill. Of course, you loose combat tactics. A cheaper alternative is to add a chaplain. nice and cheap, and grants rerolls on the charge, while bringing some CC power of his own to the party.

 

Taking larger squads as point squads, maybe a 10 man tac unit gives you a bit more options as you're less likely to get wiped out in 1 turn. Be prepared to fall back, use, combat tactics to drop out of loosing CCs if you have any guys left, so you can re engage next turn. Not forgetting ATSKNF to auto rally (just be careful of enemies within 6").

 

And most importantly, use shooting to take out as many guys as possible before they get too close. Sure you can't do this to all of those units, so choose the ones you are to hold up with point units so that only under strength (if they aren't dead) units reach your lines.

 

Sry, bit of a long winded post, but hope it gives you some ideas. I think my main take home message was supposed to be that perhaps tac squads aren't the best suited for this.

 

I have avoided mentioning assault squads, as I don't use them so won't be able to give the best advice on them.

 

and 1 last points. Drop pods. Drop pods are cheap, and can put guys exactly where you want them on turn 1. Alternatively, you can take mutiple droppods and not even bother putting your guys in them. Just pod them in and make the enemy have to go around them, which buys you some more time, add the units in too, and this can really be a pain to work around, but of course, all costs points and starts to become a pod army.

 

(*) A note on whether to assualt, or let your opponent. This is a big topic of it's own and really comes with experience, and is very unit dependent (both yours and the enemies). Usually, you always want to get the charge on, for charge bonuses, but this isn't always such a great idea. You may charge in, get wiped out, and give them d6 consolidation, even closer to your lines, and 1 dead unit for you..... IN YOUR TURN!!!!!! Against orks, this can be suicidal, but charging osrks removes alot of their benefits from furious charge as well, so it really can be worth it. If your unit has defensive grenades (I think iron clads have them), then the opponent isn't getting bonus attacks anyway. If they have to assualt you in cover, and don't have nades (few new armies have this problem), let them attack you while you rapid fire them on your turn. most savy players know by now that you want good assualt units, but not too good. They want to take 2 assualt phases to wipe out your unit, so that they do it in your turn, giving them 1 less turn of being shot at, plus the consolidation just before their real movement phase begins. This can be used against them if you initiate the charge in your turn (and don't get wiped out, hence why 5 man squads not always as useful). You charge, with all those benefits, take a battering and fingers crossed, pass your morale check. His turn, they are stuck chopping your guys up, wiping them out end of their turn, leaving them nicely open for your return fire.

[Fatuous]

Quick followup.

 

The scouts tactic from above was 'borrowed' from New heretic over on the 40k online forums, and can be found here.

 

http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=185361.0

 

A few last points.

 

Telion probably does not give his unit stealth, as stated in the post, plus he can add to the cost of the unit quite a bit, but can be useful.

 

Finally, don't be affraid to go to ground if alot of enemy fire is coming your way (shouldnt be a huge problem with CC specialists, but worth mentioning). This works rather well with camo cloaks, but also combat tacics. Go to ground, and if you loose a guy, auto fail your Ld check. Fall back, and auto regroup, no longer gone to ground. Sneaky, but legit as far as I am aware.

[greatcrusade08]

Hmmm if people are going to non B&C forums for scout tactics then im not doing my job properly :)

 

Feeding the enemy a speed bump is useful at times, and scouts being cheaper and more 'killable' is the obvious choice.. how many of us have had a speedbump survive the first hit (either by being caught when you try and flee or just managed all your saves?), if they survive you cant shoot the enemy unit which is the whole point of a speedbump

[minigun762]

Another option is to use a counter assault unit instead. The difference is that the counter assault isn't as weak or small as the speed bump. Assault marines are the.best example. But a full tac squad with a power fist can also work.

[Praesul]

Could you use a unit meant to lose combat and just choose to fall back? Place another squad right near the combat to prevent enemy pursuit since they can't move into or through your other troops, nor assault them. Then shoot a lot on your turn.

[RayJ]

My problem recently (coming from the point of view of Dark Angels) has been that even when I have a speed bump unit, the opponents forces in any 5th edition codex has at least one element that the entirety of my army can shoot at and come out virtually spotless. Then they assault me and destroy my small, elite squads in close combat.

 

I have strategies that allow me to minimize this impact a bit, but I'd like to hear about solutions that work without my whole force choosing to get killed by a single unit or the rest of my opponent's army. I don't have a problem with loosing too many games with my Dark Angels codex, but I get way too many draws to get above middle of the pack in a tournament environment. Discovering new ways to speed bump and still be effective would be great.

[Ryjak]

I know this isn't an option for everyone, but when the situation calls for me to speedbump something, I try to kite 'em into the open with whatever is available, then blast 'em with two Demolisher shells. Took out a 20+ Death Company that way, but I had to feed them two different units to pull it off.

 

Hardest thing to do is getting your opponent to take the bait.

[Fatuous]

Hmmm if people are going to non B&C forums for scout tactics then im not doing my job properly :P

 

Feeding the enemy a speed bump is useful at times, and scouts being cheaper and more 'killable' is the obvious choice.. how many of us have had a speedbump survive the first hit (either by being caught when you try and flee or just managed all your saves?), if they survive you cant shoot the enemy unit which is the whole point of a speedbump

 

;) Was the first scout tactica article I found back in the day pre Bolter and Chainsword (I call them the dark years before I found this forum;) as was first link on google I found (yours were the second link, and third and fourth.........).

 

If I'm going to charge a CC unit, the unit charging needs to be able to survive that turn, otherwise, I'm just giving away a unit and letting them consolidate on my turn. Otherwise sit back and force them to kill me in their turn ;)

 

All depends on the unit tho, if it is designed to kill in 2 turns (fewer power weapons, smaller unit), then getting that charge in so they finsh me off on their turn is pretty vital. If the speedbump unit can't survive a turn, they need to forcing the enemy to charge them.

[Hellios]

When feeding speed bump units you need to make sure your speed bump will survive 1 round of combat and ideally you want the combat to end in the opponents turn (not always the next turn)... if you feed a unit that they will wipe out in one turn you are helping them get to you faster and wasting a squad. Space marines can't do the fearless 30 man mob or the 50 man IG blob with a commisar... or 20 man Guardian blob with an Avatar... and half of the nid codex...

 

The only way for a speed bump squad to work is being big so that it can take almost anything for at least a turn (and some abillity to stop it breaking) or you need to weaken the squads you intend to speed bump... if you take rhinos you can combat squad with heavy weapon and plasma as fire support and sgt + melta/flamer in the rhino drive up and flame people sit in rhino... rhino gets assaulted... (if they don't blow it up shooting) and that takes a turn...and as you were close to flame they don't get much benefit from the assault move as they might, then you have your turn (and we hope you are not pinned) double tap/flame them again if this is a big mob unit this should do some damage and even if it is a fairly elite unit (say Khorne Berzerkers) enough flamer and bolter hits should do some damage... then with luck they will charge you and even better if they have to move through terrain to get to you such as the vehicle wreckage... all this time your other squads have been shooting things... and you have slowed that unit down for two of their turns hurrah! Very basic but that is about as good as you can get with speed bumping assault units with a combat squad...

[Tau_Guardian]

I think we have missed quite an important speed bump. This being the attack from the back in order to slow down the enemy. Now this tactic is a bit hard to pull off and it is not always an option but when you can do it you can make an enemy unit loose some distance at least. You have to do it in your turn usually to be effective but it tends to work on large squads pretty well. That something that can outfalnk (ie. scouts) And when they come in they move in from the side of the table. If there is a unit close to one of the table edges you can charge it in the back. That requires the guys in the front and closer to your side move back towards the guys who charged them in the back. Sometimes, depending on the unit that you charged, taking the charge from them can actually keep you alive for a turn and if it doesn't at least you pulled them away from your board edge.

[greatcrusade08]

it seems like you guys are charging your speedbumps at the enemy and hoping they survive a turn.. this is pointless as most assault orientated units will chomp through a combat squad in one turn..

instead use terrain/vehicles etc to make sure your speedbump is the only unit your enemy can charge.. make them do the work and then rapid fire them in your turn

[Mysticaria]

Yeah, the only time I sacrifice a unit like this is from a direction that will cause the enemy to pile in 6" away from where I want them to be. Also, getting the distance right so that as few models are in combat as possible on the first turn is key. I used to do this with nids a lot (it is one of their primary strategies) but there are a few occasions where it has worked with marines. Basically, make sure your charging model is 5.5" away (as close to 6" as possible) and the second model is 2" away from him, etc. You will base with only one model and then after the enemy defenders react move you may not be fighting the entire enemy mob. I recommend lots of blast and ordnance weapons to make sure the enemy units are spread out... it will help you pull off this trick as they won't be tightly paccked and should not get too many guys in combat. Odds of surviving 1 turn is higher if you are only going against half (or less) of the unit.

 

-Myst

[Fatuous]

Some really good advice coming here, the rear attacks sound a really good tactic, and using rhinos I totally forgot about (as I asm unmeched).

 

The only real flaw with rhinos (and it isn't really a huge hurdle) is the abililty of a squad to take it down in the shooting phase (say with a melta gun)and then assualting the contents, which is legit), but as long as you pile out the furthest you can from the enemy, you should get away with it, or at least be forcing them to move through difficult (and hopefully if wrecked) dangerous terrain. Anything forcing dangerous terrain checks on em being a good thing :)

[Warprat]

Could you use a unit meant to lose combat and just choose to fall back? Place another squad right near the combat to prevent enemy pursuit since they can't move into or through your other troops, nor assault them. Then shoot a lot on your turn.

 

 

Actually, I tried this the last game I played, and it worked fairly well... Two combat squads delayed a Space Wolves CC Termie squad + a Grey Hunter squad for a couple turns in a terrain gap. Unfortunately, they consolidated closer to my base after wiping out the second squad. But I was able to use my plasma cannons on them as they grouped up.

 

Of course, both squads had no chance to use combat tactics, since they went down like school children.

[greatcrusade08]

it would only work if you rolled higher on the Iniative roll, thats relying on luck too much for my liking

[rat of vengence]

Played a Necron army at a 1000 point tournament. He took the nightbringer (it might have been the deciever though, whichever one can leave combat if he feels like). I took objectives while feeding 3 combat squads (one at a time) to keep the mega-necron busy. Worked just fine, only took 1 wound off it, but kept it out of the way.

 

RoV

[greatcrusade08]

thats a pretty good way of dealing with him (deciever btw is the one that moves out of combat).. i definatley think we need to seperate feeding with speed bumping.. the two are entirely different tactics

[pattison]

Okay let's face it: we can't really do anything against CC armies, just attempts to make their advance slower.

C:SM really sucks in close combat. Yes, it sucks. I play a lot against SW and as I see I can only be relatively sure that I win MY assault if I attack at least with double amount of marines, or preferably three times the opponent.

If you get assaulted by a unit of SWs - you're done.

I've been trying to figure out what to use to speedbump in my shooty army, but the JPA is simply too expensive and too fragile to do the job.

They just lack the punch even with the Chaplain.

Assault termies? So far any kind of termies were an epic fail anytime I tried to field them.

And scouts are still too expensive and weak. For 50 points I would take a bunch of them as interventing speedbumps w/ ccw, but for 75...

 

One option could be borrowed Stormtroopers from the Inquisition, sitting in a rhino and rapid firing on the attackers after falling out.

But thanks to the forthcoming new Inquisition codex (which will most probably even more broken than the BA one...) we won't have this chance anymore soon.

 

C:SM is simply outdated when you face those "480 armour saves please" CC armies.

You can try, and I try as well, but have to be happy with a draw against a CC list on the more ambitiously written side.

Yeah, you can say that I say all this because my strategic qualities, but my opponens admit that they do have an advantage CC-wise.

 

Now that we have killer-cc SWs with reasonable long range firepower and BAs with every kind of totally illogical and broken stuff seems like that the followers of Guilliman's guidelines are not the finest but the weakest...

[greatcrusade08]

Now that we have killer-cc SWs with reasonable long range firepower and BAs with every kind of totally illogical and broken stuff seems like that the followers of Guilliman's guidelines are not the finest but the weakest...

 

Thats just what we want you to think :P

Its a challenge, you either rise to it or repaint your army.

 

ive done pretty well against SWs, im a little wary of thier countercharge but they arent unbeatable.. i even had Calgar thump down logan in a recent game... good times :lol:

[pattison]

Now that we have killer-cc SWs with reasonable long range firepower and BAs with every kind of totally illogical and broken stuff seems like that the followers of Guilliman's guidelines are not the finest but the weakest...

 

Thats just what we want you to think ;)

Its a challenge, you either rise to it or repaint your army.

 

ive done pretty well against SWs, im a little wary of thier countercharge but they arent unbeatable.. i even had Calgar thump down logan in a recent game... good times ;)

 

Well we're in the same boat buddy, Imperial Fists is technically just better looking Ultramarines. (lol)

I don't do repaints because of codex creep. I think it's for losers and I see a lot of them.

Of course it's double joy to beat a "quick-red" army.

Most of my matches so far have been draws against BA and SW, some wins, some losses, it's not the main ponit.

The main point is that by playing C:SM you have to accept that you're not sitting in the fastest car on the track.

You can use "speedbumps", you can block their path with rhinos (a thing that I do all the time, in my club they call my army "the convoy marines"...), but at the end it's a struggling and not so glorious attempt trying to avoid being slashed down really bad. It hurts me a bit, as this style should not be the one used commonly by the "heroic" Marines.

For me it's a bit shameful to try to avoid getting one of your foe's assault units near your best assault unit and then see yours' fail big time when they reach them in turn 5 on half strength...

[Warprat]

I have considered going Blood Angels... but have not done so, at least not yet. If I do, it will be more for fluff reasons, and the rules fitting my ideas better than the SM Codex.

 

I haven't played them yet, but I have had some games against Space Wolves, and did realitively well. I really don't think either of the new codexes are over powered. When I think about what I would give up, switching over, and the costs of some of those units... it gives me pause.

 

 

 

 

Back to tactics...

 

The trick to Space Wolves seems to be in disrupting their coordinated attacks, so as to fire on them as they assault piecemeal. To that end, I have been combat squadding my plasma cannons and hitting grouped up figures as the transports are popped, or pods land. I also use combi-flamer, flamer point combat squads. They can also do very well against grouped up minis.

 

The problem is the point squads longevity. It can sometimes be measured in seconds... I have been using them mainy to block as speed bumps. Used in that fashion, however, they don't do so good. It also aids the enemy's movement, in that it affords a consolidation move after the squad is pulped, getting them ever closer to my support squads.

 

I think, perhaps, it would be better to use the point squads as skirmishers, and maybe manuver to the side of the enemy as they appoach, and then try to harrass them from behind. That way, if they are assaulted, they at least pull the enemy aside, delaying movement and disrupting coordination. Ooogh, that's going to be tricky to pull off though...

 

If they shoot at me, I will try to combat tactics them, and fall back as they approach. That should at least gimp thier bolters, pistols, and specials somewhat. I have little hope of using combat tactics after close combat, as the squad will probably be just a greasy smear, but there is also that small possibility as well. Especially if I manage to get a few good hits on them first.

 

 

I will be trying that next time I combat squad. Anybody use this tactic?

 

Warprat ;)

[Bartali]

Twenty three posts and only one mention of Combat Tactics so far ?

 

No need for speed bumps. Choose to fail the Morale test if your loosing cc in your opponents assault phase, and shoot them to bits in your turn.

 

Space Marines are for the most part a shooty army, drop all the CC upgrades and max out the guns to capitalise on Combat Tactics

[Koremu]

Combat Tactics is nice in theory, but in practice, especially against Assault Specialists, it ain't all that reliable.