BFG competetiveness

[Captain Idaho]

I have always had an interest in the navy, specifically the Royal Navy (God save the Queen!) and love the idea of play BFG, which combines my love for 40K with interest in the navy!

 

I wanted to get into it many moons ago, but only recently have an opponent who I might be able to manipulate to collect it with me!

 

So this leads me to a question or two:

 

How balanced are each of the Fleet lists in comparison to each other?

 

Which races have the greatest advantages over the others?

 

I am a died in the wool Ultramarines player so am asking this question because I wanted a Space Marine fleet, as well as an Imperial Bastion Fleet to represent the Ultramar fleet. Whilst I don't mind a little imbalance, I don't want to be onto an automatic lose every game just because I like Space Marines!

 

I have heard that the cheesey lists to play are the Imperial and Chaos ones that conentrate on attack craft. I have also heard that the Imperial and Chaos fleets stand head and shoulders above the others, which are more like niche lists?

 

However, I thought of a Space Marines 1,500pts list that has 2 Battle Barges and 4 Strike Cruisers (quite fluffy as a Chapter would use this sort of strength to engage in a fleet action, the Battle Barges being very important in providing the firepower a Space Marine fleet needs to fight on even terms). This list has 14 attack craft so that is actually alot!

[Octavulg]

I have always had an interest in the navy, specifically the Royal Navy (God save the Queen!) and love the idea of play BFG, which combines my love for 40K with interest in the navy!

 

Good man! No republicanism here!

 

(If you're wondering, the Queen's in the country right now, so everyone's either very patriotic or complaining about how "we don't need a monarchy, man, and what do they do anyway...")

 

I wanted to get into it many moons ago, but only recently have an opponent who I might be able to manipulate to collect it with me!

 

Collect multiple fleets yourself, you silly fellow!

 

How balanced are each of the Fleet lists in comparison to each other?

 

Decently, I'd say. I've heard people whine about all the fleets being overpowered (except marines, IIRC), which is probably a good sign. Tau can be a little tricky, and Necrons are intentionally overpowered but deal with it through specialized victory conditions.

 

There are things you can do with certain fleets that can really make the game unfun (Nova Cannon spam springs to mind), but otherwise it's pretty good.

 

Which races have the greatest advantages over the others?

 

Well, the Eldar have very different rules to most of the other races, which can make them tricky to adjust to, and are very tough against lances, which are the best guns against most other fleets. Space Marines, however, should do OK against them. Space Marines basically don't have lances.

 

I have heard that the cheesey lists to play are the Imperial and Chaos ones that conentrate on attack craft. I have also heard that the Imperial and Chaos fleets stand head and shoulders above the others, which are more like niche lists?

 

That wouldn't be an unreasonable thing to say. Attack craft heavy lists can be very powerful, though there are a number of rules (such as "no more attack craft on the table than you have launch bays") which help with that. Honestly, though, so long as you have enough attack craft to cover your back, you shouldn't have too many difficulties.

 

Personally, I find the Imperials tougher than Chaos, but that can easily be attributed to me just not being good with Chaos.

 

I'd say the Imperials, Chaos and possibly Eldar are the most powerful/capable, while the others tend to be a little less so. None are flat-out useless, though. And the Imperial fleet list seems rather more fragmented than it used to be.

 

However, I thought of a Space Marines 1,500pts list that has 2 Battle Barges and 4 Strike Cruisers (quite fluffy as a Chapter would use this sort of strength to engage in a fleet action, the Battle Barges being very important in providing the firepower a Space Marine fleet needs to fight on even terms). This list has 14 attack craft so that is actually alot!

 

And Thunderhawks are very good attack craft indeed.

[Captain Idaho]

Thanks for the prompt reply!

 

Excellent! As I won't be playing any GT style games it won't matter if a list is slightly better than another!

 

More questions then :) :

 

What is the average points value to play? I'm thinking it is 1,500pts, but I would love to play 2,000pts if possible as you can take some really fun fleets this way (as in large numbers of Escorts and still have Capital ships). Is 2,000pts really a long game to play like it's 40K cousin?

 

What sort of ratio of escorts to Captial ships should a list pick?

 

I'm guessing some lists can do ok with low numbers of vessels whilst others, like perhaps Space Marines, can do with the additional firepower they grant (5 Gladius Frigates costs 225pts and has 20 firepower!).

 

If I played a 2,000pts list I would like to have something like the following:

 

Battle Barge

= 425pts

 

Strike Cruiser Squadron - 2x Strike Cruisers

= 290pts

 

Strike Cruiser Squadron - 2x Strike Cruisers

= 290pts

 

Gladius Squadron - 5x Gladius Frigates

= 225pts

 

Gladius Squadron - 5x Gladius Frigates

= 225pts

 

Nova Squadron - 3x Nova Frigates

= 150pts

 

Nova Squadron - 3x Nova Frigates

= 150pts

 

Hunter Squadron - 4x Hunter Destroyers

= 160pts

 

Master of the Fleet - 1 re-roll

= 50pts

 

Total - 1,990pts

 

You see, this list might not be optimised, but it feels like a real Space Marines fleet that I could imagine fights opponents. The Nova Frigates are there as a little fingers up to the Imperial Navy and Inquisition, being as the Frigate is a bone of contention with them! :devil:

[Nachocuban]

BFG overall is fairly balanced, the biggest unbalances are Imperial Nova Cannons, and attack craft spam. An imperial player with a good guessing ability can devastate an entire fleet before any guns are brought to range.

 

I think the Tau and Dark eldar are the weakest of the fleets, but only marginally, I have lost to dark eldar a few times with a nova spam list, so they can't be that broken.

[Octavulg]

What is the average points value to play? I'm thinking it is 1,500pts, but I would love to play 2,000pts if possible as you can take some really fun fleets this way (as in large numbers of Escorts and still have Capital ships). Is 2,000pts really a long game to play like it's 40K cousin?

 

1500-2000. It's been a while since I've played - I'm afraid I don't remember the point values.

 

What sort of ratio of escorts to Captial ships should a list pick?

 

One that makes you happy. It's easier, however, to have too many escorts than too few.

 

I'm guessing some lists can do ok with low numbers of vessels whilst others, like perhaps Space Marines, can do with the additional firepower they grant (5 Gladius Frigates costs 225pts and has 20 firepower!).

 

Bah. Lances kick weapons battery's in the teeth and take their lunch money.

 

You see, this list might not be optimised, but it feels like a real Space Marines fleet that I could imagine fights opponents. The Nova Frigates are there as a little fingers up to the Imperial Navy and Inquisition, being as the Frigate is a bone of contention with them! devil.gif

 

It, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that lances are a lot better than Weapons Batteries, right? :D

[Rider-75]

used to play a lot of BFG.

 

1.5k is a great size for a game.

 

the system is great, the games are a nice balance between fun (especially when after a few beers we could be heard screaming "BRACE FOR IMPACT!!" at the top of our voice!!) and tactical strategies.

 

the fleets have always seemed fairly well balanced - just watch out for ork payers with a plethora of Brute Ramships!!

[Captain Idaho]

Cool. Ha, Orks with Brute Ram ships are very fluffy and would be fun to face; a rush from my firepower to try and take them out before they crash into my ships and disrupt my formations!

 

It, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that lances are a lot better than Weapons Batteries, right?

 

It might have a little something to do with it! :P

 

In fact, I reckon I would adjust the list a little, dropping a couple Gladius Frigates and using the points spare to add 2 more Nova Frigates. Then I have 8 Lances in a Space Marines list that is hard to come by!

 

I think the Tau and Dark eldar are the weakest of the fleets, but only marginally, I have lost to dark eldar a few times with a nova spam list, so they can't be that broken.

 

Yeah, it does look like a cleaner system. I might be getting into a new gaming club, so hopefully I can convince some of them to take me on in BFG.

 

I reckon I can convince people by initiating a Planetary Empires Campaign... ;)

[Seahawk]

The standard-ish tournament size is 1500 points, at least around the U.S. Rounds are 2 hours; surprisingly, you might it through 6 turns...sometimes not...

 

In that, I prefer the following:

 

BB

4x Strike Cruisers (squadroned)

3x Sword Frigates

6x Gladius Frigates

 

Massed bombardment cannons or even weapons batteries tend to make mince out of anything, especially Eldar (when I catch them!).

 

At Adepticon I played against another marine player with 10 Strike Cruisers and that's it...barely beat him, but such a fleet is VERY nasty in boarding actions. Plus it plops out 20 thunderhawk squadrons.

 

It's all about your style of play. I prefer to use four "units" that can deal with most anything and have varying degrees of hardness. That guy wanted to board you to oblivion. Escort hordes could be a daunting prospect.

[Vaaish]

I'm a little late to the party, but BFG is a pretty awesome game IMO.

 

How balanced are each of the Fleet lists in comparison to each other?

 

IN and Chaos are the best balanced fleets in the game. Overall you shouldn't be in a completely unwinnable situation unless you match up marines vs eldar or to a degree, eldar vs necron. Marines are generally considered one of the weakest fleets in the game.

 

Which races have the greatest advantages over the others?

 

Corsair Eldar, Craftworld Eldar, and Necron have the greatest advantage. Necrons are fairly regularly considered a broken race.

 

Well, the Eldar have very different rules to most of the other races, which can make them tricky to adjust to, and are very tough against lances, which are the best guns against most other fleets. Space Marines, however, should do OK against them. Space Marines basically don't have lances

 

Marines will get toasted by eldar provided the eldar player is remotely familiar with how to play his fleet. Marines rely on either escorts or strike cruisers, neither of which are especially durable and both of which have especially short range. You do get barges which get you some added range and a little more durability but are slow. Eldar survive on their movement system which lets the drop into range to fire and then run away out of range of the marines 30cm guns. Add to that pulsar lances and you end up with a fleet that outnumbers you, outguns you, and ignores your 6+ armor that you have great difficulty even firing back at.

 

I have heard that the cheesey lists to play are the Imperial and Chaos ones that conentrate on attack craft. I have also heard that the Imperial and Chaos fleets stand head and shoulders above the others, which are more like niche lists?

 

Imperial AC lists are not cheesy. the IN pays an arm and leg for AC compared to any other race which makes it fairly wretched to attempt out ordnancing any of the other races. Chaos does better and has a very nice carrier with the devastation for a very reasonable price. (a ship with the same weapons as a lunar and longer range AND 4AC for only 10 points more than the lunar) IN and chaos are the cheapest lists to collect with the plastic cruiser two packs and they are easier to play with the lack of special rules, but they aren't any more niche than eldar or orks.

 

 

What sort of ratio of escorts to Captial ships should a list pick?

 

There are two reasonably effective builds for Marines in BFG at the standard 1500 point level. The first, and the direction I find most capable, is to take two battlebarges and fill out the remainder of your points with escorts this gives you speed to get your weapons in range and some serious durability with the battle barges. The second method is to stock up on strike cruisers and fill the remainder with escorts. I don't really like this method because you have to put the strike cruisers in squadrons to be effective and with only one shield and 6 hits, it's very easy to force them to brace which reduces their already meager firepower. As a slight bonus, the upcoming FAQ will let you fire the WB and Bomabarment cannon at the same time so you don't suffer the annoying blast marker penalty. Hybrid lists are much more difficult to play well, but they are possible and Seahawks is one of the better lists I've seen.

 

 

BFG overall is fairly balanced, the biggest unbalances are Imperial Nova Cannons, and attack craft spam. An imperial player with a good guessing ability can devastate an entire fleet before any guns are brought to range.

 

Nacho, the NC is no longer a guess weapon. It rolls scatter dice now and can be countered with a board decently filled with terrain. SG Tau is one of the strongest fleets having won adepticon several years running. They can alpha strike ordnance like no other race out there to just overwhelm a fleet with the variable speed torpedoes and resilient Mantas.

 

 

 

If you are looking for more info on stuff, you could drop by Port Maw which is dedicated to BFG. It's www.portmaw.com

[Seahawk]

As a slight bonus, the upcoming FAQ will let you fire the WB and Bomabarment cannon at the same time so you don't suffer the annoying blast marker penalty.

Bwaa? Is this mentioned on Port Maw? I'd be happy to see that...

 

Hybrid lists are much more difficult to play well, but they are possible and Seahawks is one of the better lists I've seen.

:P Wow, thanks! I enjoy tremendous success with this list (only lost one game, and that was to the FW Tau list at A-con...and BS scenario rules that screwed me out of AC and not him), beating out Chaos, Eldar, Nova Cannon IN, Orks, and Necrons.

 

The thing is, I rarely ever brace with my squadron unless all the cruisers are crippled and I really need to save them. I cycle my ships so that each turn the least damaged one will be the one hit first.

[Vaaish]

yeah, not bracing can really help, but what I find kills the strike cruisers numbers of long ranged and short ranged lances available to IN and chaos, the amount of ordnance available to Tau, and basically eldar everything. That really hurts the competitiveness of hybrid fleets because it's easier to ignore the battle barge and also easier to take down the light strike cruisers. I think yours works a little better because you have 4 strike cruisers squadroned. Usually I see two or three which makes it easier to force the BFI.

 

Typically, 900 point goes into two battle barges which leaves enough room for 3 strike cruisers and a handful of escorts. In that situation it's better to go all escorts which gives you two battlebarges and 13 escorts split between hunter and gladius plus two rerolls. The other option, which I think you ran into, is all out strike cruisers. 10 plus an admiral gets you 1500 points which is a huge amount of stuff to kill even if it's not as durable. Probably more prudent to take 8 or 9 and get rerolls as well as some escorts.

 

The bonus isn't mentioned over at port maw, it's on the discussion threads for the 2010 FAQ at the specialist games forums. the actual change is this, still pending the FAQ review:

Multiple Gunnery Weapons: If a ship or squadron has multiple types of gunnery weapons, like Bombardment Cannons, Heavy Gunz or Standard Weapons Batteries, they may be fired simultaneously. Calculate the dice on the gunnery table separately for each type of gunnery weapon. This means you do not suffer gunnery shifts due to blast markers caused by other members of the same squadron in the same shooting phase. The order in which these weapons hit is up to shooting player, so Bombardment Cannons can hit after weapons batteries have taken down shields for instance.

 

anyway, I personally tend towards IN rather than marines and my typical fleet is this:

 

1x Emperor +AB

2x Vengeance

2x Lunar +NC

2x Torpedo Dauntless

Admiral.

 

So far it's one of the hardest IN fleets I've been able to hammer out to be resilient to most AC, have decent AC coverage and long range the alternate uses 2x armageddons.

[Seahawk]

Interesting...so it's simultaneous but not...a lot like sniper teams in Iraq, where both shoot at the same target at the same time, who is typically in a vehicle. The first breaks/fractures the glass of the sloped window enough for the other to pass through and into the target.

 

While I have a sizable IN fleet, I found Chaos to be my preference (after marines, of course :lol:), what with hordes of AC and long range lances, as well as the monstrous Carnage cruisers to clear out Eldar. mmm, FP 32...

[Brother Gaius]

Oh, BFG how I miss thee! I used a fleet with 2 BB, a slew of SC and a fair number of escorts when I got a game in. I was a fan of boarding torpedoes....Gotta love boarding actions as Marines. Failing that, you can't go wrong with a screen of Thunderhawks to keep the enemy ordinance at bay till you could close into BC range. Lances are great and all, but never understimate the humble weapons battery. It's useful against everything, very little counters it and the amount of hits a BB can put pout or a squadron of Gladius has had my opponents wincing before. Learn your strengths, experiment and see what works for you. You are going UM, so look at their special BB....Its a lanceboat on broadsides.

[Vaaish]

That UM BB is unofficial and has been expunged from the records... it is an abomination that goes completely contrary to fluff and game mechanics.

[Seahawk]

It's hard to ignore when it's printed as official rules in WD :pirate:.

[Octavulg]

It's simple, Seahawk. I'll walk you through it.

 

Rip the page out.

 

Set it alight.

 

See?

[Vaaish]

As things currently stand, only the stuff you can download from the GW website or is in the BBB and Armada is official. Even if something was printed in white dwarf, it doesn't make it official and free for use in BFG without an opponents permission. A lot of the stuff from white dwarf didn't make it into armada.

[Captain Idaho]

:lol:

 

Seriously though, is the Seddito Oprimere really that over powered? I know that Lances are amazing and all, but Space Marines don't get any except on Nova Frigates, whilst their Cruisers are all light Cruisers that lack any really firepower unless squadroned, so it is it not an eqaliser to them?

 

Not just that, I thought the Lance boats like the Despoiler were fiendishly more powerful plus also carriers etc? It is over 400pts!

 

Personally fluff wise, I would have preferred the vessel to be built with extra Bombardment Cannons rather than be a long Lance boat. Seems fluffier, and would have been different too. Imagine it had the usual Bombardment cannon prow armament, with port and starboard FP6 Bombardment Cannons.

 

Oh yeah, thanks for the interest in the topic. Shame none of us live close enough to have a campaign or just a series of games. Especially as everyone plays differently!

[Vaaish]

Marines are deliberately minus lances. The Seddito gives them that in quantity and on an difficult to suppress platform. 6x 60cm lances is nuts. If you look at all of the other fleets the IN apocalypse is close and that takes an engine critical to boost the laces to 60cm. Even Chaos, known for long range lances, can't field anything near that quantity on such a heavily defended platform outside of the planetkiller. With lock on you are averaging 4.5 hits per broadside that ignore blast markers and range modifiers at 60cm which is quite impressive. Unbraced that means you will cripple one full strength unbraced cruiser per turn factoring in the rest of your fleet stripping their shields first.

 

Look at the despoiler, it only has s7 lances inside 30cm. Being a carrier it has conflict of interest. Most carriers like to stay back but the lances make the despoiler want to close and up close you have to choose either lock on or reload ordnance.

 

Trust me, this is one ship that it's a good thing is unofficial, even the rules committee in charge wishes the ship had never been printed. It's like IN Jovian or Nemisis. Both provide a cheap way to fill a deliberate hole in the IN fleet list promoting a game style never intended by the designers.

[Captain Idaho]

Ha, quite a persuasive argument!

 

What do you think about a Bombardment variant of the Battle Barge, mentioned earlier? Range is 30cm still, FP6 to either side, FP8 to front/side.

[greatcrusade08]

I used to play alot of BFG a couple of years back.. i had an ultramarines force of battle barge, strike cruiser and several escorts at about 1000 points ish.

 

I found that escorts in general die very quickly, so if i were to collect again id only have a minimal amount and concentrate on the cruisers moreso.

 

For cheese, the nastiest list i saw was a lance heavy chaos fleet with practically no escorts.. every ship was the same type with pretty much lances being the only weapon... just couldnt beat it.

 

But for fun the battle barge is a monstrosity, everyone feared my force simply for those big "feth off" bombardment cannons and thier smaller cousins aboard the strike cruisers.

I guess the only issue i had with SMs is the lack of an intermediary cruiser, the strike cruiser is akin to the dauntiless type ligt cruiser, whilst the battle barge comes under the heavy cruiser type.. they really needed a middle ground that was big enought to trade fire with an imperial cruiser but not as hefty and expensive as the battle barge

[Marshal Wilhelm]

How do you play BFG?

 

Do you just fly at the enemy and keep shooting?

 

I guess I am asking for tactics :D

[Brother Nihm]

Go here and download the free rules & read 'em! :D

[Octavulg]

How do you play BFG?

 

Read the rules Nihm linked to. Acquire the necessary ships, or proxies therefore. Then FIGHT!

 

Do you just fly at the enemy and keep shooting?

 

Well, I do, but I'm not very good.

 

It depends. Some people favor boarding, some people use long range engagement, some people rely on waves of attack craft...

 

And then there's the variations in what you could be shooting...

 

I guess I am asking for tactics

 

For Marines? Close as fast as possible. If you have air superiority (unlikely, but possible), try to do some hit and run attacks or the like. Boarding is your friend. If you can box the enemy in, do it.

 

Closer, closer, closer is the rule. Oh, and avoid enemy lances if at all possible - Thunderhawk them to death, if you can.

[Captain Idaho]

So you reckon I should use my Thunderhawks to attack the enemy Lance boats primarily? Makes sense, seeing as AC are so much faster than ships.

 

Tactically speaking, what sort of targets/roles should the various Space Marine vessels go for? I was thinking of using Strike Cruisers in pairs and ganging up on enemy Cruisers, my Galdius escorts for pounding away ships with shields that my other ships are targetting or enemy escorts where neccessary, the Novas to pound away at enemy Captial ships, Hunters to support the Battle Barge and the Battle Barge should go for the enemy Carriers/best ship?

 

I don't really know though, I have yet to have a game, but am preparing as I intend to have a few games soon ;)