predator lascannons

[khurdur]

I as thinking, seeing as a pred annihilator 3 lascannons don\t have he same LOS they can't all shoot the same target, and as the rules state all a vehicles guns must target the same unit, a predator can't fire all 3 lascannons in one turn. Or can the sponsons hit seperate targets?

[Reglor]

If you are shooting at a large and/or spread out squad, a vehicle squadron, or a single vehicle that is far enough away all your weapons can hit that same target. And no, unless your vehicle has special rules (PotMS, super heavy, ...) you can not split fire.

[Grey Mage]

Yep, after about 12" its just not a problem to your front arc, so use that free movement pivot and take aim.

[fallynnknivez]

i actually took string and lined up the distance from my chaos predator going from the sponson mounting and following the barrel, then measured from the front of the hull to where the two strings interjected and its somewhere around nine and a half inches from the front of the hull that the two side sponsons could hit.

[Ashe Darke]

Now this came up the other day, does the fact that the front of the tank block LoS also potentially allow for a cover save? Say only 1/4 of the tank is in view of the arc for example. I'd say yes and our store has always done this but someone said no the other day so now I curious. Thoughts?

[Seahawk]

No, the firing unit does not provide a cover save to its target. Just think if you had plasma guns lined up behind bolters and fired (all from the same unit). Do you provide a cover save then? Of course not.

[rat of vengence]

Block the possiblilty of a sponson firing? Yes.

 

Give a cover save? No.

 

It is not intervening terrain or obstruction, it is the firing unit itself. :P

 

RoV

[Acebaur]

Your own vehicle doesn't give cover saves, as was said. I actually had an Eldar player once try to tell me that because his Wraithguard were standing right in front of my LRC(they had assaulted the front of it) that he'd get cover from my AC. I laughed and said the gun would just pivot down and shoot them in the face! ;)

[SeattleDV8]

Sorry , but the vehicle can block itself.

A single vehicle does not have the fire though members of it's own units rule, Squadrons of vehicles do have this rule .

BRB FAQ:

".....like in the case of a Rhino’s cupola,

then it should be treated as having a 360º arc of

fire. However, if you mount the same storm

bolter on a Razorback, even though it still can

rotate 360º, it won’t obviously be able to fire

through the Razorback’s main turret, and so it

will have a ‘blind spot’."

 

If the squadron rule applies to single vehicles BRB pg. 64 "Vehicles in squadrons can see and shoot though members of their own unit,..."

It would be impossible to have a 'blind spot'.

[Acebaur]

I didn't say they didn't have a blind spot, just that said blind spot won't provide a cover save.

[SeattleDV8]

If "any part of the target models body is obscured from the POV of the firer, the target model is in cover."

If the gun can't see it , which it can't if its in the 'blind spot', then it gets cover.

[JamesI]

If "any part of the target models body is obscured from the POV of the firer, the target model is in cover."

If the gun can't see it , which it can't if its in the 'blind spot', then it gets cover.

No. If the gun can't see it, it can't shoot. So cover is irrelevant.

[SeattleDV8]

And if the gun can only see 2 models out of a unit of 10?

It can see the unit but over 50% are obscured and so would grant cover.

[Sparhawk]

I believe this argument is in the gray area section and I highly doubt we will resolve it here.

 

As for the OP:

1. If the unit is far enough away all 3 weapons should be able to shoot at it.

2. The predator can only fire at 1 unit a turn.

 

As for cover from the vehicle body you should probably discuss it with your opponent before the game and/or dice-off.

[dswanick]

And if the gun can only see 2 models out of a unit of 10?

It can see the unit but over 50% are obscured and so would grant cover.

Each weapon only needs to be able to draw line of sight to one model in the target unit. If all three weapons can draw a valid line of sight all three weapons can shoot and cause wounds. A model does not count against itself for purposes of providing a cover save. You either have LOS or you don't.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

BBB pg 58.

 

"If the target happens to be in cover from only some of the weapons, then work out cover exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a seperate firing model in a normal unit"

 

So that covers regular cover.

 

If the gun can't see the target, that gun cannot fire. => this is shown in the Pred & trukk + boyz diagram, pg 58

 

BBB pg 23.

 

If the majority of guns can see the majority of the unit, the unit does not get cover as shown by 'column A'

 

If the majority of guns cannot see the majority of the unit without cover, the unit gets cover as shown by 'column B'

 

If the majority of guns sort of sees the majority of the unit without cover, the unit gets weak cover as shown by 'column C'

 

+++

 

I think I have cleared that up, and so no need for a dice off. You just need to be proactive in looking over your gun barrels ~ but don't poke your eye on stuff! :pirate:

 

Please tell me if I have missed anything....

[SeattleDV8]

A model does not count against itself for purposes of providing a cover save. You either have LOS or you don't.

Which is not true for a single vehicle,

For infantry units, yes pg. 16,

For Vehicle Squadrons, yes pg. 64

For a single vehicle , nope no such rule for it, as proven by the FAQ and 'blind spots"

[dswanick]

A model does not count against itself for purposes of providing a cover save. You either have LOS or you don't.

Which is not true for a single vehicle,

For infantry units, yes pg. 16,

For Vehicle Squadrons, yes pg. 64

For a single vehicle , nope no such rule for it, as proven by the FAQ and 'blind spots" <-- too what does this refer? I have the FAQ fated 25 FEeb 2010, I see nothing in there about this

[rat of vengence]

For a single vehicle , nope no such rule for it, as proven by the FAQ and 'blind spots"

 

Really? No.

 

We all agree that a unit that is in a blind spot can't be fired on, as the rule you quote describes. It does not however grant cover saves, nor does that rule say it does. The whole mechanic of cover is there being interveining terrain etc that gets in the way of shots, or the target being obscured/diving for cover in the rubble/behind the terrain. No rule says the vehicle itself can provide a cover save from its own fire. That is just ridiculous :cry:

 

RoV

[Marshal Wilhelm]

For a single vehicle , nope no such rule for it, as proven by the FAQ and 'blind spots"

 

Really? No.

 

We all agree that a unit that is in a blind spot can't be fired on, as the rule you quote describes. It does not however grant cover saves, nor does that rule say it does. The whole mechanic of cover is there being interveining terrain etc that gets in the way of shots, or the target being obscured/diving for cover in the rubble/behind the terrain. No rule says the vehicle itself can provide a cover save from its own fire. That is just ridiculous :)

 

RoV

 

If the majority of the weapons firing can see the majority of the unit out of cover, they get no save.

If a weapon cannot see, it cannot fire.

 

If a weapon cannot see more than half the squad, the unit would get cover against that gun if that gun is doing the majority of the volley against the unit.

 

It is like BBB pg 23

[SeattleDV8]

For a single vehicle , nope no such rule for it, as proven by the FAQ and 'blind spots"

 

Really? No.

Yes really.

 

We all agree that a unit that is in a blind spot can't be fired on, as the rule you quote describes. It does not however grant cover saves, nor does that rule say it does.

BRB pg.21 "When any part of the target models body is obscured from the POV of the firer, the target model is in cover."

 

The whole mechanic of cover is there being interveining terrain etc that gets in the way of shots, or the target being obscured/diving for cover in the rubble/behind the terrain. No rule says the vehicle itself can provide a cover save from its own fire. That is just ridiculous :(

 

Thats not entirely true, Other units (friend or foe ) can give cover, even to units that are completely visible.

Units in the open can Go to Ground. (granted this is a special rule)

You do not need terrain to gain cover, all that is needed is something to block LOS.

And you have it backwards, the 'Own Unit' rules are exceptions to the normal shooting and cover rules.

Without the exception a vehicle can block it's own LOS and can't shoot though itself.

Both of which would be allowed if it did have the exception, which it clearly doesn't.

 

It is as simple as Marshal Wilhelm has pointed out.

[Grey Mage]

For a single vehicle , nope no such rule for it, as proven by the FAQ and 'blind spots"

 

Really? No.

 

We all agree that a unit that is in a blind spot can't be fired on, as the rule you quote describes. It does not however grant cover saves, nor does that rule say it does. The whole mechanic of cover is there being interveining terrain etc that gets in the way of shots, or the target being obscured/diving for cover in the rubble/behind the terrain. No rule says the vehicle itself can provide a cover save from its own fire. That is just ridiculous :D

 

RoV

 

If the majority of the weapons firing can see the majority of the unit out of cover, they get no save.

If a weapon cannot see, it cannot fire.

 

If a weapon cannot see more than half the squad, the unit would get cover against that gun if that gun is doing the majority of the volley against the unit.

 

It is like BBB pg 23

This is how I read it, and how it makes most sense to me- after all, the vehicle isnt actually providing cover but it does well represent an "awkward firing angle".

 

It is however something that just doesnt come up much in my experiance.

[pueriexdeus]

I really cant believe this thread has gone this far. Rules Lawyering at its finest. Oh Oh Oh your left sponson only sees two of my squad because your hull blocks LOS, I get a cover save... Pleeeeaaaase. Learn how to play the game and win with tactics, fire and maneuver.

 

Pg 21 of the BRB tells you exactly what cover is. No where does it say the hull of the firing vehicle confers cover. If the weapon cant see the target it doesn't get a shot.

 

Pg 22 of the BRB. Exceptions; Own Unit. Would not the hull of the vehicle firing a weapon be Own Unit? If the weapon cant see the target it doesn't get a shot.

 

Harsh No, Blunt Yes, To the point Absolutely.

 

Where I'm from these people don't get to play with the big kids.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

pueriexdeus;

 

Pg 21 BBB is not the end of cover.

Pg 22 goes on to say "* Own Unit:"

Vehicles cannot see through themselves. Otherwise the example on pg 58 with the Pred and the 2 Ork units would not be needed and the RHS weapon would fire through the Pred at the Trukk.

So the "through own unit" is lost as soon as a multi-weaponed Tank is involved.

 

No TLOS would be blocked if the Pred could see through itself.

If the Pred did not obstruct 'arc of sight', the pictures on pg 59 would not be needed.

 

Cover is not strictly being behind a wall, amongst debris or in woods. It is being not clearly seen by the attacker.

"When any part of the target model's body.... is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover"

 

If you can see less than the majority of the unit with a gun, they count as in cover from that gun.

When you fire a volley of shots, if the majority can see the majority then no cover is given

If the majority of the guns can't see the majority of the unit, the unit gets cover.

[SeattleDV8]

I really cant believe this thread has gone this far. Rules Lawyering at its finest. Oh Oh Oh your left sponson only sees two of my squad because your hull blocks LOS, I get a cover save... Pleeeeaaaase. Learn how to play the game and win with tactics, fire and maneuver.

 

Pg 21 of the BRB tells you exactly what cover is. No where does it say the hull of the firing vehicle confers cover. If the weapon cant see the target it doesn't get a shot.

 

Pg 22 of the BRB. Exceptions; Own Unit. Would not the hull of the vehicle firing a weapon be Own Unit? If the weapon cant see the target it doesn't get a shot.

 

Harsh No, Blunt Yes, To the point Absolutely.

 

Where I'm from these people don't get to play with the big kids.

Excuse me? I have been nothing but polite and have backed up each of my points with the actual rules.

I consider this a debate with adults and am willing and able to have a reasoned give and take.

If I am shown to be wrong I freely admit it, in a arguement where both sides have a good positions I will give the other side the respect it deserves.

Not the little rant you have just laid out.

Did you even bother to read the posts?

Pg 21 (which I have quoted twice) "When any part of the target models body is obscured from the POV of the firer, the target model is in cover."

Yes it does tell us that if part of a model is obscured from the POV of the firer the model gets cover , if 50% of the unit can't be seen it gets cover.

"Gee, I can't see 6 of the ten models in that unit from this sponson, aw thats ok I'll just ignore the cover rules."

Pg 22 " .....they can trace line of sight though members of their own squad, models can always shoot...<snip>..though member of their own unit..."

"So we now can shoot that sponson weapon though the body of the tank? Sure can, we ignore the arc of fire and the FAQs telling us we can't."

Ok sarcasm off, the 'own unit' rule (pg. 16 and 22 ) are for infantry, yes?

Where in the vehicle rules do you find the 'own unit' exception?

You don't until you get to the Squadron rules.. you know where there is more than one model in the unit.

A single vehicle is not granted that exception.

I don't play with kids, big or otherwise,because they tend to throw fits if things don't go they way and are unwilling to discuss things in a reasonable manner.

I play with Adults ( or people willing to act like one) and that statement has nothing to do with age.

Do I argue minor points in the Rules Forum, Damn skippy I do, So I and others understand what the rule actually say, not the standard belief of what people think they say, so I can discuss and house rule where the RAW can be silly pre-game.

So that both I and my opponents can have a fun game.