IC + retinue vs Another squad

[Mr. Sandbot]

Hey!

So the situation is that my friend's Castellan attached himself to a squad of Initiates and proceeded to charge a squad of raptors. What ended up happening was that his Castellan had killed everything in B2B contact with him. The rest of the raptors were just in B2B with his squad of Initiates when I4 rolled around.

 

Now my question is, are the raptors allowed to attack the Castellan?

 

(side note: I used the search engine and the closest I found was a topic in june about the reverse situation where the poster was wondering if his IC could attack the squad despite no longer being in B2B)

 

Thanks ahead of time guys.

[Sparhawk]

I think the answer is no since he can only be singled out by models in B2B with him and they were all dead by the time their initiative rolled around. Sorta like you don't get to swing with a Pfist if he dies before his turn.

[dswanick]

First, any model within 2" of a model in B2B is engaged and can attack, and any model within 2" of a model in B2B with the IC can attack him directly.

Second, see the Rulebook, pg39, the insert picture. You should have taken casualties from models not in B2B contact or at least not engaged with the IC so that they could attack him directly.

[Valerian]

First, any model within 2" of a model in B2B is engaged and can attack, and any model within 2" of a model in B2B with the IC can attack him directly.

 

True

 

Second, see the Rulebook, pg39, the insert picture. You should have taken casualties from models not in B2B contact or at least not engaged with the IC so that they could attack him directly.

 

Anyone that could have attacked him at the beginning of the close combat, can still attack if they are still alive when it becomes their Initiative step. So although everyone in B2B with the Castellan were gone (why did you remove them, you can remove from anywhere in your Raptor unit), anyone that started the combat within 2" of those models that used to be in B2B can still chose to attack the Castellan. Hopefully that explanation made sense.

 

V

[Frosty the Pyro]

if its a retinue you can never target the IC directly anyway, due to retinue rules.

[dswanick]

A squad of Initiates is not a retinue for the Castellan, per the "Retinue" rules in the codex, unless I'm mistaken on this. So all above advice holds. If it is truely a retinue choice for the Castellan then no he's not an IC until all other models are killed and couldn't be individually targeted.

[Reglor]

A squad of Initiates is not a retinue for the Castellan, per the "Retinue" rules in the codex, unless I'm mistaken on this. So all above advice holds. If it is truely a retinue choice for the Castellan then no he's not an IC until all other models are killed and couldn't be individually targeted.

 

Just a note. Due to the fact that C:BT is an older book and some of its rule clarificaiton, even with an retiune a BT IC fights seperatly from his unit.

[Mr. Sandbot]

Alrighty that makes more sense.

 

Anyone that could have attacked him at the beginning of the close combat, can still attack if they are still alive when it becomes their Initiative step. So although everyone in B2B with the Castellan were gone (why did you remove them, you can remove from anywhere in your Raptor unit), anyone that started the combat within 2" of those models that used to be in B2B can still chose to attack the Castellan. Hopefully that explanation made sense.

 

V

 

I removed them because we were running a simulation assault phase (it wasn't really a game) based on something he read on Warseer about how if a Castellan killed everyone in B2B with him then the squad he was fighting cannot strike back at him. We tried to reason it out and realized it made no sense. as a result I came here to ask.

[dswanick]

I searched through my copy of C:BT and could find nothing special which would require this. I also couldn't find anything on Warseer by using castellan as a keyword. Could you link the discussion that you're referring too? Without knowing more I'd have to say Castellans are ICs and the normal BRB rules apply.

[Reglor]

I searched through my copy of C:BT and could find nothing special which would require this. I also couldn't find anything on Warseer by using castellan as a keyword. Could you link the discussion that you're referring too? Without knowing more I'd have to say Castellans are ICs and the normal BRB rules apply.

 

Assuming your talking about my comment It is Because of the general Black Templars Characters rules on C:BT pg 22. It says that a charaters that is attached to a squad still functions as a IC in close combat.

 

This is one of the discusions about it

[dswanick]

Alrighty that makes more sense.

 

Anyone that could have attacked him at the beginning of the close combat, can still attack if they are still alive when it becomes their Initiative step. So although everyone in B2B with the Castellan were gone (why did you remove them, you can remove from anywhere in your Raptor unit), anyone that started the combat within 2" of those models that used to be in B2B can still chose to attack the Castellan. Hopefully that explanation made sense.

 

V

 

I removed them because we were running a simulation assault phase (it wasn't really a game) based on something he read on Warseer about how if a Castellan killed everyone in B2B with him then the squad he was fighting cannot strike back at him. We tried to reason it out and realized it made no sense. as a result I came here to ask.

I searched through my copy of C:BT and could find nothing special which would require this. I also couldn't find anything on Warseer by using castellan as a keyword. Could you link the discussion that you're referring too? Without knowing more I'd have to say Castellans are ICs and the normal BRB rules apply.

 

Assuming your talking about my comment It is Because of the general Black Templars Characters rules on C:BT pg 22. It says that a charaters that is attached to a squad still functions as a IC in close combat.

 

This is one of the discusions about it

 

Actually, I was kind of responding to both. The IC rules are standard for all ICs in 5th edition. Just follow the rules on pg49, pg39, and pg24 of the BRB. The whole squad is "engaged" with the BT IC, so the casualties can be taken from anyone in the squad (pg24 and pg35 of the BRB), leaving those in BtB contact with the BT IC and those within 2" of a model in BtB to attack back. Hope that clarifies things. The only difference for BT over any other is that even when with a retinue, BT ICs are seperate during the CC.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Alrighty that makes more sense.

 

Anyone that could have attacked him at the beginning of the close combat, can still attack if they are still alive when it becomes their Initiative step. So although everyone in B2B with the Castellan were gone (why did you remove them, you can remove from anywhere in your Raptor unit), anyone that started the combat within 2" of those models that used to be in B2B can still chose to attack the Castellan. Hopefully that explanation made sense.

 

V

 

I removed them because we were running a simulation assault phase (it wasn't really a game) based on something he read on Warseer about how if a Castellan killed everyone in B2B with him then the squad he was fighting cannot strike back at him. We tried to reason it out and realized it made no sense. as a result I came here to ask.

I searched through my copy of C:BT and could find nothing special which would require this. I also couldn't find anything on Warseer by using castellan as a keyword. Could you link the discussion that you're referring too? Without knowing more I'd have to say Castellans are ICs and the normal BRB rules apply.

 

Assuming your talking about my comment It is Because of the general Black Templars Characters rules on C:BT pg 22. It says that a charaters that is attached to a squad still functions as a IC in close combat.

 

This is one of the discusions about it

 

Actually, I was kind of responding to both. The IC rules are standard for all ICs in 5th edition. Just follow the rules on pg49, pg39, and pg24 of the BRB. The whole squad is "engaged" with the BT IC, so the casualties can be taken from anyone in the squad (pg24 and pg35 of the BRB), leaving those in BtB contact with the BT IC and those within 2" of a model in BtB to attack back. Hope that clarifies things. The only difference for BT over any other is that even when with a retinue, BT ICs are seperate during the CC.

 

 

One aditional clarification. to use the within 2" quification for being engaged you must not be BtB wtih any enemes. If you are BtB you must target one of the units you are in BtB with with the squad, and not in btb with the IC you may not attack the IC even if you are within 2" of a model (from your own squad) that is in BtB with the IC