Blood Angels Codex for Night Lords

[Mattsama]

So I played NLs back in the days when they had furies and more fast choices than you could shake a stick at!! But then came the evil codex that killed the Legions!!

 

Anyway, I was thinking of running my Night Lords using the Blood Angels codex.

 

Furies = Troop Assault Squads

Raptors = Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Assault Squads (designated by paint jobs).

 

I wouldn't run BA or C:SM specific items like Baals or Razorbacks or crazy Land Raider configurations. Anyone else doing this? Or is it just too taboo??

[Hellios]

So I played NLs back in the days when they had furies and more fast choices than you could shake a stick at!! But then came the evil codex that killed the Legions!!

 

Anyway, I was thinking of running my Night Lords using the Blood Angels codex.

 

Furies = Troop Assault Squads

Raptors = Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Assault Squads (designated by paint jobs).

 

I wouldn't run BA or C:SM specific items like Baals or Razorbacks or crazy Land Raider configurations. Anyone else doing this? Or is it just too taboo??

A number of people either run chaos lists with C:SM or one of the loyalist SM codices and expect to get fragged by a number of people such as legatus... personally in this case I don't think Assault troops represent furies well and that they would be better used to represent assault marines or raptors...

 

However I don't have any problem with people using alternative dexes...

[Whitefireinferno]

You got through saying you wouldnt be using BA specific things right after saying to use Sang Guard... :confused: But yeah most the Time people using Alt dex's are not doing so to be more fluffy But to get a advantage.

[the jeske]

only sang guard is actualy a crapy unit and it still represents possessed or chosen with wings/jump packs better then what we have in the 4th ed codex .

[Legatus]

Furies = Troop Assault Squads

And that would be better generic daemons than "Lesser Daemons" from the Codex Chaos Space Marines? :)

 

 

Raptors = Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Assault Squads (designated by paint jobs).

And that would be better Raptors than "Raptors" from the Codex Chaos Space Marines? ^_^

 

 

Edit: One of the special rules of the Night Lords in their Index Astartes army list or the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines was that they were not limited to 0-1 unit of Raptors, similar to how Iron Warriors were not limited to 0-1 unit of Obliterators and were able to use Vindicators from the loyalist Codex. In the current Codex, while some of the special rules got dropped, others were incorporated into the basic army list to basically allow players to construct armies for the various Legions. The 0-1 restrictions for Obliterators is gone, and Vindicators are available, so players could use these choices to build themed Iron Warriors armies. Likewise, the 0-1 restriction for Raptors is gone, so taking two of these usually very rare units will already give your army more of a Night Lords theme. Other than that the Night Lords are undivided Chaos Marines, and the current Codex does allow you to field an army of undivided Chaos Marines.

(Btw, a lot of the long time Night Lords players are opposed to the idea that the Night Lords specialise in fast attack units.)

[JamesI]

There have been posters using BA codex for Night Lords for years (even going back to the PDF codex everyone but me hated).

 

In my opinion its not a big deal and have fun with it.

[Mattsama]

You got through saying you wouldnt be using BA specific things right after saying to use Sang Guard... :) But yeah most the Time people using Alt dex's are not doing so to be more fluffy But to get a advantage.

 

This is true, but I would probably not use a Sang guard unit anyway, since I don't use them in my BA army anyway...

 

And as far as using RAS vs Lesser Deamons, that would be those really cool but highly useless wings on their backs in the current codex.

[Lady_Canoness]

Your sig makes you look like you are already a Blood Angels player (what with the BA successor and all) so why would you start a second Blood Angels army as a "counts as".

 

There's a C in front of the SM for a reason, not to mention that you'll be rubbing shoulders with a bunch of World Eaters who suddenly have confused Khorne with the Emperor and got a thing for jump packs...

[the jeske]

And that would be better Raptors than "Raptors" from the Codex Chaos Space Marines?

and

One of the special rules of the Night Lords in their Index Astartes army list or the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines was that they were not limited to 0-1 unit of Raptors, similar to how Iron Warriors were not limited to 0-1 unit of Obliterators and were able to use Vindicators from the loyalist Codex. In the current Codex, while some of the special rules got dropped, others were incorporated into the basic army list to basically allow players to construct armies for the various Legions. The 0-1 restrictions for Obliterators is gone, and Vindicators are available, so players could use these choices to build themed Iron Warriors armies. Likewise, the 0-1 restriction for Raptors is gone, so taking two of these usually very rare units will already give your army more of a Night Lords theme. Other than that the Night Lords are undivided Chaos Marines, and the current Codex does allow you to field an army of undivided Chaos Marines.

(Btw, a lot of the long time Night Lords players are opposed to the idea that the Night Lords specialise in fast attack units.)

only in 4th ed when you took 4 raptor unit or 4 biker units they were all scoring , the army was not good, but at least it worked. in 5th if you take an army with 3 raptors units they do not score , while not being better[and offten worse] then normal csm , while being non scoring. 2/3 of games are about scoring units , so any army based around raptors out of the csm dex . does not work . In the BA dex the jump troops aviable there are scoring , the jump pack hvy list is still not good , but it at least work [unlike a raptor build]. Does that anwser while the BA dex is better for a raptor hvy NL list a BA dex is better.

 

(Btw, a lot of the long time Night Lords players are opposed to the idea that the Night Lords specialise in fast attack units.)

and unless we get special rules for terror tactics, stealth attacks and Ld modifictation a raptor cult hvy army is the closest thing you can get to playing a NL army.

[Legatus]

only in 4th ed when you took 4 raptor unit or 4 biker units they were all scoring , the army was not good, but at least it worked. in 5th if you take an army with 3 raptors units they do not score , while not being better[and offten worse] then normal csm , while being non scoring. 2/3 of games are about scoring units , so any army based around raptors out of the csm dex . does not work . In the BA dex the jump troops aviable there are scoring , the jump pack hvy list is still not good , but it at least work [unlike a raptor build]. Does that anwser while the BA dex is better for a raptor hvy NL list a BA dex is better.

It answers the question on whether the Blood Angels Assault units are better than the Chaos assault units. Since when were the Night Lords supposed to have the bestest of all the assault units available to any Astartes army? The Night Lords are Chaos Marines, and they use more than average Raptor units (which, as I was trying to point out by refering to the 3.5 Codex, is "two units", not "as much as possible"). The current Codex Chaos Space Marines has Chaos Marines, and it has Raptors. The Blood Angels Codex is not more Chaos, and the Blood Angels assault squads are not more like Raptors.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

A number of people either run chaos lists with C:SM or one of the loyalist SM codices and expect to get fragged by a number of people such as Legatus... personally in this case I don't think Assault troops represent furies well and that they would be better used to represent assault marines or raptors...

 

However I don't have any problem with people using alternative dexes...

 

 

Since when were the Night Lords supposed to have the bestest of all the assault units available to any Astartes army?

 

Who says divination is not real just because scientists can't dissect it? :D

[the jeske]

Since when were the Night Lords supposed to have the bestest of all the assault units available to any Astartes army?

what do you mean by best in the fluff or in the rules ?? csm have the same number of attacks . sw GH have same number of attacks as GH too and counter charge +MotW.

A NL army list done with the BA dex[or to be a more precise A Raptor cult NL list] works the same list build with codex the chaos dex does not work .

 

It is the same with lets say AL . I can take pedro cantor , sternguard as chosen , tacs as csm , inq storm troops or scouts as AL field operatives. List aint top tier , but it is fluffy [infiltration , many different units attacking from different sides with ouflank/infiltration and drop pods] . A try at a AL list with the chaos dex is not only boring , but it is also doesnt work .

 

The Night Lords are Chaos Marines, and they use more than average Raptor units

yeah and BL army can take 3 units of raptors and WB army can take 3 units of raptors and a AL army can take 3 units of raptors and all those builds will look the same , suck the same with the difference being how they are painted . Well unless someone is totaly in to the non gaming part of the w40k then maybe it can work for him[if he doesnt play many games aka doesnt get his ass handed to him a lot] , for someone who likes to play a NL army which important part is raptors cults the BA codex is better.

 

 

The Blood Angels Codex is not more Chaos, and the Blood Angels assault squads are not more like Raptors.

the chaos codex is not very much chaos anyway , so who cares ? it is possible to make a fluffy counts as army with the BA dex that also works in games , you cant make a NL army that works in games with the chaos dex.

[Legatus]

I really cannot get behind this "unit X in my Codex is not as powerful as unit Z in that other Codex, so I am playing my army according to that Codex now, even though my army has an official Codex" attitude.

 

 

A NL army list done with the BA dex[or to be a more precise A Raptor cult NL list] works the same list build with codex the chaos dex does not work .

There never was an official "Raptor Cult" army list. Probably because they are supposed to be so damn rare. You had to resort to "counts as" in the 3.5 Codex to get more than your 4 units of Raptors. If you had been playing a fringe army that has never been supported but was somehow technically possible in a previous army list, sucks, but I don't exactly find the complaint justified.

 

 

It is the same with lets say AL . I can take pedro cantor , sternguard as chosen , tacs as csm , inq storm troops or scouts as AL field operatives. List aint top tier , but it is fluffy [infiltration , many different units attacking from different sides with ouflank/infiltration and drop pods] . A try at a AL list with the chaos dex is not only boring , but it is also doesnt work .

That is baloney.

 

 

yeah and BL army can take 3 units of raptors and WB army can take 3 units of raptors and a AL army can take 3 units of raptors and all those builds will look the same

Then that will be a very Night Lordish Black Legion, Word Bearers or Alpha Legio force, without much effort on behalf of the player to construct a fluffy army list.

 

 

you cant make a NL army that works in games with the chaos dex.

Seriously... I mean, seriously... :lol:

[The_Crippster]

I really cannot get behind this "unit X in my Codex is not as powerful as unit Z in that other Codex, so I am playing my army according to that Codex now, even though my army has an official Codex" attitude.

 

I can agree with this 100% when the thought process is as posted, but not when the alternate codex results in a more fluffy army.

 

 

That is baloney.

Make me a fluffy/mildly effective AL list with the CSM list and compare to the counts as version. Also, back up your argument with points.

 

Then that will be a very Night Lordish Black Legion, Word Bearers or Alpha Legio force, without much effort on behalf of the player to construct a fluffy army list.

I think you missed the point. While playing codex black legion everything is black legion.

 

Seriously... I mean, seriously... :P

 

Again, I ask you to post a list (just a quick one, don't calculate points or anything), but this time of an obviously NL list and tell us how it works well in game.

 

 

Look at me, agreeing with Jeske D=

[Legatus]

Make me a fluffy/mildly effective AL list with the CSM list and compare to the counts as version. Also, back up your argument with points.

As I am not the one making definitive statements about the playability of an army, I in turn would be quite interested in why Chosen, Chaos Terminators, Chaos Space Marine Squads, Raptors, Havocs, Chaos Space Marines Bikes and Chaos tanks can apparently not accomplish anything. Honestly, that is about what I use with my Ultramarines, with the exception that he loyalist type squads are exchanged for the Chaos equivalents. When you remove ATSKNF (being replced with IoCG and ultra grip) the army suddenly becomes unplayable?

 

 

I think you missed the point. While playing codex black legion everything is black legion.

Then you are mistaken about the nature of the current Codex Chaos Space Marines. It is not a Black Legion army list which you have to use to make armies for all the other Legions. Just as the current Codex Space Marines is not an Ultramarines army list that is used to make armies for the other loyalist Chapters. With the new generation of Codices a lot of the formerly special choices of the divergent armies have been included in the basic list. You can use multiple Raptor units instead of just a limited 0-1. That is not "Black Legion", that is a traditional trait of the Night Lords. You can use multiple Obliterator choices in your army. That is not "Black Legion", that is a traditional trait of the Iron Warriors. You seem to have forgotten that the Index astartes and 3.5 Codex background ever existed. It still does. Iron Warriors employ a lot of Obliterators. Black Legion not so much. A Chaos Space Marine army with multiple units of Raptors has a "Night Lords" theme. If you painted your army as Black Legion, then you are now playing your Black Legion Marines as Night Lords. Not the other way around.

 

This Codex allows you to create armies for Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, etc. You could create the same army list someone might use for Iron Warriors and use them for your Alpha Legion painted Marines, but then you would not have themed your army after the Alpha Legion, which is your own deliberate choice. If you are not interrested in theming your army list according to the Legion you are interrested in, you don't have to. But the Codex Chaos Space Marines allows you to.

 

 

Again, I ask you to post a list (just a quick one, don't calculate points or anything), but this time of an obviously NL list and tell us how it works well in game.

I quite like to use Sorcerers to lead my Night Lords, as they have some neat tricks up their sleves. Either with a jump pack accompanying a Raptor squad, or with one of the CSM squads in a Rhino. I usually field a unit of Havocs, as I like the volume of heavy weapon fire but am not in favour of Tanks that much. I don't like units that get destroyed with one lucky hit. 2 Squads of CSM, 1 squad of Raptors and one squad of Havocs would make a very solid 1000 points. If one squad of Raptors at 1000 points is not "Night Lords" enough for you, you can allways forgo the Havoc squad for a second squad of Raptors. Personally, since I have been playing them since 2nd Edition I do not feel obligated to include any Raptors at all, but I have over the past few years. For up to 1500 points I would include a third CSM squad and 1-2 special choices. A second Raptor squad at this point range would be possible, though I usually field a unit of 10 daemons first. They may not be able to fly anymore, but a swarm of vampire bats (instead of the stock fury model I use two large vampire bats per base as my generic daemons) that deep strikes and assaults an unsuspecting enemy unit with 30 attacks are allways entertaining.

If that get up is not unlike a "generic Black Legion" army for you then perhaps you may have unrealistic expectations about how drastically different the various Chaos Space Marine forces should be from each other. The Legions usually have one or two traits or signature units, which can be emphasized to the extreme, but do not have to be. AL prefer to use infiltrators and a bit of everything. NL use more than average Raptor units. BL does not mind to include cult units of different deities in the same force. WB employ more daemons than the other Legions. The Iron Warriors usually favour heavy support choices. All of that can be done with the Codex Chaos Space Marines, and none of these have to be emphasized to the extreme to make the army unplayable or different in every aspect from a force of a different Legion in order to have a themed army.

[Hellios]

AL prefer to use infiltrators and a bit of everything. NL use more than average Raptor units. BL does not mind to include cult units of different deities in the same force. WB employ more daemons than the other Legions. The Iron Warriors usually favour heavy support choices. All of that can be done with the Codex Chaos Space Marines, and none of these have to be emphasized to the extreme to make the army unplayable or different in every aspect from a force of a different Legion in order to have a themed army.

 

Well as you have said usually... but why would you want to play the usual force... if I wanted to do that I would play Ultramarines! It is the exciting and extreme side of chaos that makes it interesting ( I have a a 1kson army... yay for rubrics!)... and since the chaos legions are not all that different it is worth pointing out there isn't a huge difference between loyalist and chaos space marines... so on that logic why not use loyalist dexes...

 

I can kind of see where you are coming from but until a worthy successor arises for the title of supreme evil codex of darkness... many chaos fans are going to find this current dex... a little weak in terms of flavour... and that the flavour they like can easily be substitued using a loyalist dex!

[the jeske]

I in turn would be quite interested in why Chosen, Chaos Terminators, Chaos Space Marine Squads, Raptors, Havocs, Chaos Space Marines Bikes and Chaos tanks can apparently not accomplish anything.

use search . this was done like one thousand times. why they do not work [bikes, chosen , chaos tanks, havocks] or are used in a rather unfluffy way[termis] or are a sub par version of cult units[csm].

 

That is not "Black Legion", that is a traditional trait of the Iron Warriors.

0_o what? every BL khorn list was using 3 oblits in their armies . they would have used 9 if they could[and now they can] .so how is it traditional for IW to use oblits ? right now the "BL" list looks like oblits dps , zerkers/pms and an IW warrior fluff list is DPs oblits csm/zerkers ...thats if they are hardcore fluff players and dont use counts as pms. yeah the differnce between IW and BL lists in the new dex , is like so huge . yeah part of those many options they gave us . yep.

 

 

 

A Chaos Space Marine army with multiple units of Raptors has a "Night Lords" theme.

yes and it is also border line unplayable [not that it couldnt be made worse with some spawn and dreads] . I mean are we talking about the same game here ? 2/3 of all missions is about scoring . One dex has scoring jump troops , the other doesnt . stats are identical and there is a difference between taking 6-9 oblits and calling a BL list an IW one and taking 3 units of raptors and having a list that sucks.

 

 

This Codex allows you to create armies for Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, etc

yeah and technicly you make a sm army build around venguard . only the army would suck . Basing an army around bikes or chosen or raptors or possessed or lesser demons [aka NL /AL/WB fluff lists] ends up with armies that do not work at all. The only armies that do work are either BL or clones of it . So if those are the only lists that work , then it means it is impossible to build something else out of the dex.

If that get up is not unlike a "generic Black Legion" army for you then perhaps you may have unrealistic expectations about how drastically different the various Chaos Space Marine forces should be from each other.

So you do not play a 2DP 3 csm 6 oblit army . you play a 1 sorc 3 csm 2 raptor 1 LSD build . :confused: weak against mech and break other meq lists that like BA/SW , will have problems in mirror matches against another chaos build [no anti tank to pop transports fast enough] against IG you have two units of raptors that should technicly move faster and tie up the IG army . only IG doesnt play static gunline , they realy dont have problems with killing 20 meq [because that is what raptors are] etc etc .

But using the BA dex to represent a NL army I could take mefo[the DP] grim[aka the Lt we dont have anymore] and as many "raptor" units I could fit in to the list. hey I may even go crazy and old school NL fluff and add some khorn NL possessed [aka the DC] .

The list still would not be top tier , not an optimal BA build. But it would be more fluff [in game play] the a BL list that uses sub par choices .

 

Probably because they are supposed to be so damn rare

not in the NL legion . full raptors whole grand company full of them . even considering the heresy and legion war loses there should be enough to make warbands with them .hell it is possible to make WE warbands and they are practicly died out.

 

Then that will be a very Night Lordish Black Legion, Word Bearers or Alpha Legio force, without much effort on behalf of the player to construct a fluffy army list.

dude . then what makes an army fluffy ? the way it is painted ? most chaos armies are dark anyway , no one sees if it is dark purple or dark blue from the other side of table . This was one of the main concernt with the new dex. before you played AL or WB or IW and saying "I play chaos" said absolutly nothing about your army. Right now someone says chaos and he may as well say BL .

That is baloney.

why ? AL has veterans , uses more imperial tech then any other chaos legion , has field operatives and has scouts , they use cultists [and who says IG guys cant be cultists whole regiments went chaos with full gear] , they are less mutated then the other legions etc I could even added and Inq with mystics and say its an counts as Arch heretic with chaos seers.

 

I really cannot get behind this "unit X in my Codex is not as powerful as unit Z in that other Codex, so I am playing my army according to that Codex now, even though my army has an official Codex" attitude.

NL or AL do not have an official codex anymore . BL and chaos renegades do.

[Legatus]

use search . this was done like one thousand times. why they do not work [bikes, chosen , chaos tanks, havocks]

Bikes seem to be accepted allright, judging from the first few threads that pop up. link, link, link

 

Chosen seem to be used as well. link, link

 

There is not much on tanks, but then they are not really different from the loyalist versions. link

 

I guess these people just have not yet been enlightened by anyone that the units they field do not actually work at all.

 

 

You can use multiple Obliterator choices in your army. That is not "Black Legion", that is a traditional trait of the Iron Warriors.

0_o what? every BL khorn list was using 3 oblits in their armies . they would have used 9 if they could[and now they can] .so how is it traditional for IW to use oblits ?

Because a Black Legion was not able to field more than 1 unit of Obliterators in previous Codices? So any army that uses more than one Obliterator unit will have a classic Iron Warriors feel to it now.

 

 

and an IW warrior fluff list is DPs oblits csm/zerkers

I would not exactly see DPs and berserkers as fluff Iron Warriors choices. They are justifiable for that army (other than Plague Marines...), but not what you would expect in a typical themed force.

 

 

I mean are we talking about the same game here ? 2/3 of all missions is about scoring

1/3 of the missions have 3-5 Objectives. 1/3 of the missions have only 2 Objectives, while 1/3 has none. If you are freaking out if you have fewer than 4-5 scoring units then by all means focus on your Troops choices. But the only important thing is that at the end of the game you have more scoring units than the opponent. It may not be neccessary that you start with more, or as much as he has.

 

 

Probably because they are supposed to be so damn rare

not in the NL legion .

They are not as rare in Night Lord forces, as expressed by the removed 0-1 limitation for Night Lord army lists. They were still not a mainstay unit as some are occasionally demanding them to be. The main fighting unit for Night Lords are still Chaos Space marine squads.

 

 

Then that will be a very Night Lordish Black Legion, Word Bearers or Alpha Legio force, without much effort on behalf of the player to construct a fluffy army list.

dude . then what makes an army fluffy ?

Well, not taking more than one unit of Raptors or obliterators would be a start. They are supposed to be rare. Night Lords have a higher than usual amount of Raptors, while the Iron Warriors have a higher than usual amount of Obliterators. If you throw in some heavy machinery for Iron Warriors and some Chosen for Night Lords you are going in the right direction.

 

It is rather simple, really:

 

Legion X prefers unit Y and Z type of warfare.

 

==> Fluffy army lists of Legion X should include more than average of unit Y and be geared toward Z type of warfare.

 

 

It is the same with lets say AL . I can take pedro cantor , sternguard as chosen , tacs as csm , inq storm troops or scouts as AL field operatives. List aint top tier , but it is fluffy [infiltration , many different units attacking from different sides with ouflank/infiltration and drop pods] . A try at a AL list with the chaos dex is not only boring , but it is also doesnt work .

That is baloney.

why ?

Because I don't see how a Chaos Space Marine army that uncludes Chosen would categorically not work.

 

 

NL or AL do not have an official codex anymore

GW might disagree with you on that.

[Divine Carrot]

LOL im doing the same thing with night lords. but instead of the BA dex im choosing to use either the normal SM dex with the outflank(special charicter) and teliportin libs. or a drop pod SW list. the wolves have cool lightning claws and acute senses. ( its quite night lordy )

[Mykra]

So I played NLs back in the days when they had furies and more fast choices than you could shake a stick at!! But then came the evil codex that killed the Legions!!....I wouldn't run BA or C:SM specific items like Baals or Razorbacks or crazy Land Raider configurations. Anyone else doing this? Or is it just too taboo??

 

I see nothing wrong with this as long as the opponent knows beforehand it's a Blood Angel crafted list and the models are easily recognizable for what they should be so it's not a 'What's this do?' guessing game every turn.

 

Look forward to seeing your Blood Haunters ;P