Death Company

[Zeller]

Hey folks,

 

I've noticed that virtually every single mention of DC since the release of our new codex also states that they're overpriced. I must ask you to consider the following.

 

A comparison. X = base point cost of a death company marine.

 

Death Company Marine

WS: 5

A: 2

Fearless

Furious Charge

 

Plus - Rage, Feel no Pain, Relentless.

Cost: X

 

Khorne Berzerker

WS: 5

A: 2

Fearless

Furious Charge

 

Cost: X +1

 

Now to be fair lets look at a 5-man squad of each. Five DC is 5X. Five berserkers is 5X +5. For 5 points less we gain feel no pain on every marine as well as relentless. This coupled with the immense flexibility of armament for each individual death company marine puts them a cut above your average berzerker.

 

So strictly from a points persepective the DC are not overpriced. Yes, rage certainly hinders the control of the DC when compared to the berzerker but given that either unit is likely to be in a transport until ideally they reach their target this can be overlooked.

 

Only when one considers giving their DC jump packs do we see the DC's special rules and their cost come to the fore, specificallly within the BA codex. Our base assault marine squad is 5X. A base DC squad with packs is 5X +75. This is a horrific cost and this is where I agree with others on their cost - strictly from a jump pack DC persepctive.

 

Yes, it's nothing ground breaking or magical and I know many players prefer jump pack DC but it's food for thought.

 

Peace.

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

I will be playing an all Khorn army today(monday) its half 1 in the morning here with my all DC list. his army basically is 40 khorne berzerkers, 3 rhinos 1 raider Khârn and 4 obliterators. I shall tell you how it goes. And I love my Jump packing DC with lemmy but i almost always give them a raven.

[Isryion]

I don't think you can compare current cost of DC to that of an older codex. However, if you compare it to any of our other veteran units (especially since you need to add in a SP to get furious and fnp) they are more cost effective unless you add JP.

[Firedrake28]

Rage is really crippling though. The second you bail out of your transport (or are forced out of it) you essentially lose control of the unit and have to hope that they go the right way.

[Priest33]

you do know that they can embark again into said transport at the end of their movement right? Basicaly you move the transport up to that when they end their rage their within 2 of teh transport and tada embark time! Yeah its a PITA but its do-able.

[Zeller]

I don't think you can compare current cost of DC to that of an older codex. However, if you compare it to any of our other veteran units (especially since you need to add in a SP to get furious and fnp) they are more cost effective unless you add JP.

 

I was worried about someone mentioning this but C:CSM is a 5th ed. codex just as C:BA. Granted it is the 2nd 5th ed. codex they released it is still a 5th ed.

 

You could also drive your transport along with your DC to make sure it's there to pick them up.

[Sanguinarian]

Rage is really crippling though. The second you bail out of your transport (or are forced out of it) you essentially lose control of the unit and have to hope that they go the right way.

 

When is this excuse going to die? I have never seen this done, maybe I'm doing something right, because my opponents don't seem to be able to divert any resources to kiting my DC and DC Dread around when the rest of my army is knee deep in their backsides. Or if they did it's nothing 2 LRs, 2 Baals, 2 Razorbacks and a Vindy can't take care of, especially PotMS x2.

 

It's ALL about tactics and gameplanning. I have an all-comers list, so each unit has specific tasks: primary and secondary.

 

My LRC deep strikes in next to Moriarty's Drop Pod, which is across the board on an enemy objective, usually with a babysitting unit nearby; the LRC shoots one weapon or pops smoke; next turn DC disembark, double tap, and assault Mori's leftovers; the LRC moves 6-12" and unloads on 1 or 2 units. Next turn they look for their next victim with Mori raging along with them.

 

I let them do what they do - wreak havoc in the enemy's backfield like 12 Reggie Whites (if you count Psycho & Lemartes) - while the rest of my army takes care of the mission.

 

Never once have I been disappointed since I stopped Drop Podding them. They have to be allowed to annihilate something and put fear in the enemy's heart and force mistakes. Trying to kite them is a mistake. I'd eat that for lunch easily.

[Black Memories]

I agree with Sang's assessment. I've never been in a situation where the dc being led around by their nose was an issue. I've thrown them into overwhelming forces or something like that and had them killed, but never had them led around. Usually they soak so much firepower it's worth taking just to get the rest of your army to function cleanly.

 

That said, which you get away from the fact that they are "uncontrollable" what you should break them down as is a troop-slotted elite choice. Basically instead of your honor guard or sanguinary guard or VV or what have you, you take the death company. The death company is really an elite unit that frees up elite spots for something else (chaplain or sps or furiosos or whatever). I guess my question is if the VV, sang guard (un-dante'd) and the honor guard cant score, who cares if these guys can't score? Like any elite unit, their job is just to kill stuff, they are not normal troops.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I don't think you can compare current cost of DC to that of an older codex. However, if you compare it to any of our other veteran units (especially since you need to add in a SP to get furious and fnp) they are more cost effective unless you add JP.

 

I was worried about someone mentioning this but C:CSM is a 5th ed. codex just as C:BA. Granted it is the 2nd 5th ed. codex they released it is still a 5th ed.

 

You could also drive your transport along with your DC to make sure it's there to pick them up.

 

The issue isn't so much comparing age of codex - it's taking 1 unit totally out of context as a straight comparison. Folks have tried to do this for years, especially with CSM versus SM and it has never worked or made any logical sense. They are different armies, that function differently, and work differently as a whole - despite the similarities of certain units.

 

You are also not considering other factors, such as the DC not being scoring for one; while the Berzerkers can score, and thus win the game, despite your point-to-point/comparison/advantage/etc...

[Brother Landrain]

Rage is really crippling though. The second you bail out of your transport (or are forced out of it) you essentially lose control of the unit and have to hope that they go the right way.

 

Rage is interesting...

 

It says in THE Movement phase, you must move towards nearest enemy...

 

If Running, you must move towards nearest enemy...

 

In the Assault phase, you must CONSOLIDATE towards nearest enemy...

 

 

But

 

It does NOT say you must FIRE at the nearest enemy.

 

It does not say you must CHARGE the nearest enemy.

 

Those two distinctions give you a lot of leeway in your tactical manuevering.

 

 

Combine that with my favorite DC tactic, of LARGE 15+ unit size, and multiple assaults.

 

IMO, Multiple assaults is the way to go. If you can charge 2-3 units..

With a chaplain, you should never loose combat, and usually win by a large margin.

Remember every enemy unit must test moral at the FINAL combat modifier, even if they only suffered one or NO wounds.

 

With a large enough DC force assaulting, you can easilly force LD tests at -7, -8 or worse...

[SamaNagol]

Khorne Berzerkers are scoring Troops. And are not subject to Rage. And are scoring Troops.

 

Did I mention they were scoring Troops?

[Isryion]

Khorne Berzerkers are scoring Troops. And are not subject to Rage. And are scoring Troops.

 

Did I mention they were scoring Troops?

 

Scoring troops with rage aren't really scoring troops. They can't reliably be kept on any objectives.

[Deus_Sanguinius]

As already mentioned: DC is an Elites choice in the Troops section. This saves you an Elites slot. Elites usually do not score. I think DC is far from overpriced (without jumppacks) as they are cheaper than Berzerkers (with equal skills) and have FnP as a bonus. Rage does not really matter and as an 'Elites choice' I do not suppose them to score... They should kill, kill, kill! Why do people always complain about such silly things? You want a scoring unit? Take TT or Assaults.

[GlauG]

I have to say, the Stormraven seems basically designed to avoid your DC Dread getting shot to hell or kited around the board. I've only used mine like that twice, but each time I managed to place my DC and Dread in a game-deciding mass-assault (And multi-assault with a Dread's huge base and a pair of Blood Talons is horrific). The other thing is, I find that Deep Striking with Jump Packs and Dante for Tactical Precision means I can drop my DC right behind a troop transport full of squishy things, pop the transport with two Inferno pistols, weather the hail of return fire between their armour save and FNP, and or catch them if they ran due to the 12" jump infantry move.

 

Actually, that makes me think that Jump Packs, while expensive, are really worth the cost for DC. It makes them that much more likely to actually /catch/ whatever they're chasing after. :lol:

 

Also, for what it's worth, of all the objective-based games I've played with my BA, I've only won one based on objectives, rather than just annihilating the enemy outright. The DC not scoring thing bothers me a lot less tha it does some people.

[Isryion]

I don't think you can compare current cost of DC to that of an older codex. However, if you compare it to any of our other veteran units (especially since you need to add in a SP to get furious and fnp) they are more cost effective unless you add JP.

 

I was worried about someone mentioning this but C:CSM is a 5th ed. codex just as C:BA. Granted it is the 2nd 5th ed. codex they released it is still a 5th ed.

 

 

That's fair, but I've always had a problem with comparisons across codexes because what we should be asking ourselves is what can we get within the army that does the same thing at a cheaper cost in our own army book. The bottom line for me is not much, if anything.

[meniscusmike]

Agreed with most of the above they are simply better and cheaper than any other assult unit when you factor in the cost of the priest and WS 5 with re-rolls to hit and wound is pure awesome sause. I have used the DC in every game I've played and I have never been kited, the worse that usually happen is my opponent sacrificing one unit to the DC instead of another, either way it usually only holds them up for 1 round.

[JamesI]

Maybe if I was willing to dedicate a Land Raider to the DC, I could use them. But with jump packs they are just a more expensive Vanguard and in a rhino/razorback they never did anything for me as the first target every game was that rhino/razorback. Then they had to walk to the fight and if lucky a few of them made it.

 

Perhaps a Stormraven, Drop Pod or Land Raider would work for them, but I don't have any of those.

 

And, just because Rage hasn't been a problem for you yet means you haven't faced someone able to take advantage of rage. Rage sucks. I've had opponents send a drop pod behind the DC just when they were going to be close enough to get into the real fight and now have to turn around to charge an empty drop pod, or outflanking units in so they are closer and the DC have to turn and deal with it.

[Firedrake28]

And, just because Rage hasn't been a problem for you yet means you haven't faced someone able to take advantage of rage. Rage sucks. I've had opponents send a drop pod behind the DC just when they were going to be close enough to get into the real fight and now have to turn around to charge an empty drop pod, or outflanking units in so they are closer and the DC have to turn and deal with it.

 

Exactly. It's quite easy for most armies to find a way to mess around with the Death Company and lead them into doing something that you don't want them to do (like turning around and chasing after a unit of Wolf Scouts that just appeared behind enemy lines).

 

Also, lots of people are saying that Death Company are fine because they're basically an Elite choice in the Troops slot, but... you don't need elite Assault units 95% of the time. A normal RAS can easily beat up on just about anything, especially if they're near a Sanguinary Priest. More elite units like Death Company, Vanguard and Sanguinary Guard all win combat by far too many wounds and end up breaking their opponents only to be stuck in the open in the enemy shooting phase.

 

I should probably say that I'm approaching the Death Company from a competitive standpoint - I have no interest in the game from the perspective of a scrub.

[Deus_Sanguinius]

Also, lots of people are saying that Death Company are fine because they're basically an Elite choice in the Troops slot, but... you don't need elite Assault units 95% of the time.

 

But that is not the point. The question was are DC overpriced? And they are definitely not. If you don't want to take them, fine it's up to you. But they are a good unit nonetheless.

 

You or your opponent doesn't need to be a noob or scrub or something else if he doesn't manage to kite your DC around. 'Rage' can be a mess sure, but if you are a smart player you should be able to play the DC to your benefit in most cases.

[JamesI]

Also, lots of people are saying that Death Company are fine because they're basically an Elite choice in the Troops slot, but... you don't need elite Assault units 95% of the time.

 

But that is not the point. The question was are DC overpriced? And they are definitely not. If you don't want to take them, fine it's up to you. But they are a good unit nonetheless.

 

You or your opponent doesn't need to be a noob or scrub or something else if he doesn't manage to kite your DC around. 'Rage' can be a mess sure, but if you are a smart player you should be able to play the DC to your benefit in most cases.

I don't think DC with out jump packs are overpriced, DC with jump packs clearly are overpriced. I think the problem is in the past, there was little reason not to give the DC jump packs. Now, there is little reason not to give them a transport and almost no reason to give them jump packs. There should be balance between the 2, and it has failed in the past and fails with the current codex.

[Deus_Sanguinius]

Yeah, you are right James. I also see very little reason to choose them with jump packs. A little more balance would be nice.

[Isryion]

And, just because Rage hasn't been a problem for you yet means you haven't faced someone able to take advantage of rage. Rage sucks. I've had opponents send a drop pod behind the DC just when they were going to be close enough to get into the real fight and now have to turn around to charge an empty drop pod, or outflanking units in so they are closer and the DC have to turn and deal with it.

 

Exactly. It's quite easy for most armies to find a way to mess around with the Death Company and lead them into doing something that you don't want them to do (like turning around and chasing after a unit of Wolf Scouts that just appeared behind enemy lines).

 

Also, lots of people are saying that Death Company are fine because they're basically an Elite choice in the Troops slot, but... you don't need elite Assault units 95% of the time. A normal RAS can easily beat up on just about anything, especially if they're near a Sanguinary Priest. More elite units like Death Company, Vanguard and Sanguinary Guard all win combat by far too many wounds and end up breaking their opponents only to be stuck in the open in the enemy shooting phase.

 

I should probably say that I'm approaching the Death Company from a competitive standpoint - I have no interest in the game from the perspective of a scrub.

 

So, people that don't play competitively are scrubs? Nice. I think that most of this discussion is from a competitive standpoint. Otherwise, why discuss it in terms of cost effectiveness and comparisons between similar units?

 

I think most of us just disagree that it's as easy as people think, and in the terms of this discussion, some people (in our competitive experience), myself included, don't think that the DC are overpriced when taken without jumppacks.

 

As for you thoughts on not needing an elite unit, perhaps your meta is different than mine, but I play against a lot of MEQ. This means that an assault squad, even with a priest doesn't do the job very well. As a side note, my 8 DC (with a couple of PW) in a transport are only slightly more expensive than my RAS in a transport but far more effective in combat. Not necessarily more effective overall but more effective. I find that when I don't take an elite type unit, I just don't have quite enough punch. My assault squads get whittled down and my opponent lacks and my opponent doesn't have the distraction that a hard hitting unit like the DC have.

[fearlessgod]

I should probably say that I'm approaching the Death Company from a competitive standpoint - I have no interest in the game from the perspective of a scrub.

 

Really? So if I play for fun I'm a scrub? Quite frankly, I have no interest in the narrow minded perspective of a "win at all costs" so called competitive player.

 

~fearlessgod~

[JamesI]

Keep the discussion civil and constructive. The concept of "Win at all costs" and "Scrub" players is not needed in a rational discussion of DC's value.

[fearlessgod]

Keep the discussion civil and constructive. The concept of "Win at all costs" and "Scrub" players is not needed in a rational discussion of DC's value.

 

Understood. :lol: