Death Company

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I think where this argument got queered up was when you tried to compare DC to Berzerkers.

 

I don't think DC are over-priced - but doing a straight out of context comparison across different codex is totally illogical.

[JamesI]

Its hard to compare between codexes, and Berserkers and DC have different purposes (though both are pretty good at combat, one is also scoring).

 

A berserker heavy list does not need other troops, while a DC heavy list still needs other troops (or needs to wipe out the opponent).

 

Fairer comparisions are DC versus Sanguinary Guard, Honor Guard, Sternguard or Vanguard. In every case (in my opinion) the other squad has areas it is better than DC and DC have areas where they are better. So it comes down to player choice/the rest of the list to determine which squad they want

[WarpWalker]

Not to step on anyone's toes here. But I can see both points of view. A simple statement was made surely with the intention to help improve everyone's view of the cost effectiveness of a DC. In truth they are not expensive with or without JPs, if you make good use of them that is. Just to throw them to the wolves without a plan would be a waste of points.

 

Also, comparing units across the codex gap is like comparing apples to oranges. It doesn't work. The focus I have is my codex and how can I best make use of what I've been given. Comparing types of apples is worth discussing. DC-Granny Smith, Sang. Guard-Red Delicious, and Vanguard-Gala apples. :P

 

Not to change the subject but I have to ask. How many of you are using Bolter DC as opposed to chainsword/pistol models?

[Sanguinarian]

If someone would be so kind to give specific instances of being "kited" I'd love to battle plan with them to prevent it. I would do this down to a man, until that term dies in ours and our enemies throats and minds.

 

I'm thinking it stems from castling your entire army in one corner of the board and hanging your DC out in the open with no support.

 

I have 6 vehicles that are spread across the entire 6 or 8' table edge. My DC Dread/Drop Pod doesn't count since it Deep Strikes in the enemy's zone on Turn 1; and my DC's LRC will DS from Reserves within 6" of that. My DC has almost always at least killed their points back. They have never been my MVPs, but they do cause great concern in the enemy's backfield like they are supposed to.

 

They are not overpriced with or without JPs, IMHO.

 

My favorite configuration is 5 w/JPs joined by Astorath & Lemartes and 5 w/o JPs in my LRC that was joined by Psycho, which won't happen again since the GW FAQ officially nerfed his IC. Each DC squad has 4 BGs & a PS w/Bp to get the +1A. Jump squad has a PF; footsloggers have a TH.

[JamesI]

Sanguinarian, I already gave a specific example.

 

my army moving towards my opponent. Empty drop pod deepstrikes behind my army in LOS of the DC. Now the DC has to turn around and deal with an empty drop pod.

 

Or units outflanking coming in closer causing the DC to tun and chase them down.

 

Sure, thse can be ignored while in a trasnport, but according to you, DC with jump packs are viable.

 

One thing I feel I must point out:

 

To those who love DC, just because some of us dislike them is not a sign that we think you are wrong. This is not a situation where eventually we will all agree DC are awesome or all agree that DC suck. We can have differing opinions, at least partly based on play style we enjoy and the local meta-game.

[Zeller]

The choice of bolter vs bp/ccw was a tough one. Let's say you have two scenarios. Your DC is embarked in their transport vehicle and it gets within 12" of the enemy lines. Here we assume and act of God has taken attention away from this vehicle for a turn or it is otherwise very lucky. Next turn you disembark (assuming it wasn't a LR), move 6, and then one of two things...

 

A. Bolters

 

Let's say you have 10 DC with 8 bolters, a power weapon/bolter, and a bolter/powerfist. You disembark, move 6, and rapid fire with 18 shots plus one bolt pistol for a total of 19 S4, BS4 shots. So you need 3+ to hit and for all intents and purposes assuming a MEQ, a 4+ to wound. The odds aren't as good there. You then charge into combat. Your DC with bolters now have 3 attacks on the charge hitting on 3+ and wounding on a 3+. The odds of hitting for either bolter or CCW are the same but the S5 thanks to furious charge means you're wounding on 3+.

 

So in summary, 20 attacks that hit on 3+ and wound of 4+. Next you have 30 CC attacks hitting on 3+, 24 of which wound on 3+, 3 of which wound on 3+ and ignore armor, and 3 which wound on a 2+ and ignore armor. Needless to say the CC phase is in all likelihood more effective and killing the enemy troops.

 

B. BP/CCW

 

Now let's take those same 10 DC and give them 10 bolt pistols, 8 chainswords, a powerweapon, and a fist. Ten shots at range hitting on 3+ and wounding on 4+. Half as many shots as the bolter marines. In CC there will be +9 attacks made by the marines with bp/CCW that previously had bolters only. This puts our difference in shots had by the bolters and shots unavailable to the bp/cw DC 9. However, those shooting attacks that the bp/cw DC did not have are now translated into even stronger CC attacks that have the same chance of hitting but now a 3+ to wound.

 

So in summary, 10 bp shots before the charge hitting 3+ and wounding on 4+. Thirty-nine attacks on the charge that hit on 3+. Three wound on 2+ ignoring armour, 4 wound on 3+ and ignore armor, and 32 wound on 3+ with saves as normal.

 

The total difference in potential attacks from both shooting and CC is 1 though with more CC attacks you are more likely to inflict damage in assault than with those extra bolter shots because of furious charge. Granted luck is a huge factor.

***

 

To be fair this comparison does not take into consideration a DC that either has jump packs or has to walk it's way up the field for whatever reason. Either of these scenarios would probably mean more bolter shots at range hitting a target before the DC get into CC range which could, depending on your luck and the number of enemies exposed, increase the overall effectiveness of the Bolter/CCW DC.

[Niiai]

Rage is really crippling though. The second you bail out of your transport (or are forced out of it) you essentially lose control of the unit and have to hope that they go the right way.

 

People who say this usualy have not played them.

 

There are supricingly many ocasions when you -want- to move towards the closest target. ;-)

 

Also, just make shure the rest of your list can "baby sitt them" and you should be fine. :)

[Sanguinarian]

@Zeller - also take into consideration when and how our DC is best suited to engage the enemy. I give mine BGs to protect themselves out in the open after routing a unit in CC, as well as when/if they get kited around (has never happened to me!)

 

@ JamesI - Sorry, you did say that already. I don't presume to be an expert, but through trial and error I do know that whenever I ran my DC Rhino right up the gut with my other units, that big red X got blasted off the board first. That was 3rd Edition "Rhino Rush".

 

I skipped 4th Ed. when GW saw fit to allow DIY SM armies to take any traits they wanted ala Blood Sallywolves!?!

 

Now with 5th, I've crash-tested DC in every mode of transport and have found that Drop Podding in my DC Dread on Turn 1 & then Deep Striking a LR behind the enemy hopefully Turn 2 (with help from Corbulo's Eye) makes them turn around and deal with me!

 

As far as getting flanked, it takes one to know one. Or in my case - 2. As in 2 Baals in their flanks.

 

So, it's not that DC is as ineffective and untrustworthy as you many believe, which may erroneously equate to being overpriced and ineffective, as much as it is how and where they get delivered to the Enemy's throats and with or without support.

 

To make them 3x as effective from now on, I'll be using 2 small squads + Psycho: 5 JPs with Astorath & Lemartes; 5 onboard my LRR; and Psycho steals a Rhino and speeds flat-out toward my Dread.

 

Hope this sheds a little light as to how they work for me.

[Sanguinarian]

Rage is really crippling though. The second you bail out of your transport (or are forced out of it) you essentially lose control of the unit and have to hope that they go the right way.

 

People who say this usualy have not played them.

 

There are supricingly many ocasions when you -want- to move towards the closest target. ;-)

 

Also, just make shure the rest of your list can "baby sitt them" and you should be fine. :)

And by babysitting you most likely mean support, as in what I do with my DC Dread, Moriarty the Blooded Babysitter. :D

[Niiai]

Rage is really crippling though. The second you bail out of your transport (or are forced out of it) you essentially lose control of the unit and have to hope that they go the right way.

 

People who say this usualy have not played them.

 

There are supricingly many ocasions when you -want- to move towards the closest target. ;-)

 

Also, just make shure the rest of your list can "baby sitt them" and you should be fine.

And by babysitting you most likely mean support, as in what I do with my DC Dread, Moriarty the Blooded Babysitter.

 

Well: Eather block line of sight, box them into a rhino again, kill the closest unit so you can run towards something else or you know, box them in with the death company (that is the best idea!)

[njm3]

The choice of bolter vs bp/ccw was a tough one. Let's say you have two scenarios. Your DC is embarked in their transport vehicle and it gets within 12" of the enemy lines. Here we assume and act of God has taken attention away from this vehicle for a turn or it is otherwise very lucky. Next turn you disembark (assuming it wasn't a LR), move 6, and then one of two things...

 

Another advantage of BP vs. Bolter... if your opponent only has one or two models within your charge range and you light them up with bolter/BP fire, your opponent will remove those closest models and your charge will fail. With BPs rather than Bolters, you can forgo the shooting and still use the BP for the +1 attack in HTH where the DC are monsters (unlike Bolters where you won't get the +1A)

[Firedrake28]

Urgh, I want to apologize about the scrub comment. I actually wasn't entirely sure what it meant when I "said" it, but after seeing the reaction I went and looked it up and was horrified. Again, I apologize - I seem to have a talent for rubbing people the wrong way. :yes:

 

Here's an article that touches on Death Company on a site that some people may know/respect. I feel like it touches on basically all the reasons to not like Death Company and echos my own views on them.

[All-Things-Power-Armoured]

Rage is really crippling though. The second you bail out of your transport (or are forced out of it) you essentially lose control of the unit and have to hope that they go the right way.

 

People who say this usualy have not played them.

 

There are supricingly many ocasions when you -want- to move towards the closest target. ;-)

 

Also, just make shure the rest of your list can "baby sitt them" and you should be fine. :yes:

 

I second this.

 

Its quite easy to decide which way the Death Company go, ie use a cheap razorback or rhino to move in front of them, ie blocking line of sight, therefore herding them towards an enemy you want to attack.

[Isryion]

I've said this before in other places, but when I take them in a rhino/razorback, the best way to keep them from getting led around is to place them in reserve. Come in on your board edge where you want and move fast and pop smoke.

[Isryion]

Urgh, I want to apologize about the scrub comment. I actually wasn't entirely sure what it meant when I "said" it, but after seeing the reaction I went and looked it up and was horrified. Again, I apologize - I seem to have a talent for rubbing people the wrong way. :lol:

 

Here's an article that touches on Death Company on a site that some people may know/respect. I feel like it touches on basically all the reasons to not like Death Company and echos my own views on them.

 

No worries on the first part.

 

I understand the discussion points and think they have some validity, but I don't think that's the only way to play, competitively or not. He mentions that DC will scare your opponent but then they'll have a big target on their back and you'll weep as they die. I find they are far more resilient and far more of a distraction than an equally pointed Assault Squad. So, if my opponent is determined to kill them, he will, but by shooting at them, I hopefully have everything else in position and will make him pay dearly for it. This is another argument for their cost effectiveness.

[Firedrake28]

I understand the discussion points and think they have some validity, but I don't think that's the only way to play, competitively or not. He mentions that DC will scare your opponent but then they'll have a big target on their back and you'll weep as they die. I find they are far more resilient and far more of a distraction than an equally pointed Assault Squad. So, if my opponent is determined to kill them, he will, but by shooting at them, I hopefully have everything else in position and will make him pay dearly for it. This is another argument for their cost effectiveness.

 

 

Okay, but there are probably more cost effective fire magnets in the Codex. In fact, let's take a look at just that.

 

Here's the Death Company unit I've used. It's what I see as the minimum required as far as number of models and weapon upgrades are concerned to make the unit scary enough that the enemy wants to make them dead as quickly as possible.

 

Death Company (6#, 210 pts)

3 Death Company

1 Death Company (Power Weapon)

1 Death Company (Bolter; Thunder Hammer)

1 Rhino (Extra Armor)

 

So we have a unit that's going to cost 200+ points whose job is basically to attract firepower since nobody in their right mind is going to want to let them get close enough to assault. These guys have no realistic shooting ability.

 

Or we could do the following:

 

Assault Squad (7#, 213 pts)

1 Assault Marine with Meltagun

1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)

1 Razorback (Extra Armor; Twin Linked Assault Cannon)

 

Here we have a scoring unit equipped with a power weapon and a meltagun (one of the better guns in the game in this edition) inside a deadly transport with an excellent gun. This unit costs only three points more than the Death Company. These guys don't have Feel No Pain or Furious Charge but since the vast majority of good Blood Angel lists are going to be taking Priests anyway this is hardly a problem.

[Isryion]

I understand the discussion points and think they have some validity, but I don't think that's the only way to play, competitively or not. He mentions that DC will scare your opponent but then they'll have a big target on their back and you'll weep as they die. I find they are far more resilient and far more of a distraction than an equally pointed Assault Squad. So, if my opponent is determined to kill them, he will, but by shooting at them, I hopefully have everything else in position and will make him pay dearly for it. This is another argument for their cost effectiveness.

 

 

Okay, but there are probably more cost effective fire magnets in the Codex. In fact, let's take a look at just that.

 

Here's the Death Company unit I've used. It's what I see as the minimum required as far as number of models and weapon upgrades are concerned to make the unit scary enough that the enemy wants to make them dead as quickly as possible.

 

Death Company (6#, 210 pts)

3 Death Company

1 Death Company (Power Weapon)

1 Death Company (Bolter; Thunder Hammer)

1 Rhino (Extra Armor)

 

So we have a unit that's going to cost 200+ points whose job is basically to attract firepower since nobody in their right mind is going to want to let them get close enough to assault. These guys have no realistic shooting ability.

 

Or we could do the following:

 

Assault Squad (7#, 213 pts)

1 Assault Marine with Meltagun

1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)

1 Razorback (Extra Armor; Twin Linked Assault Cannon)

 

Here we have a scoring unit equipped with a power weapon and a meltagun (one of the better guns in the game in this edition) inside a deadly transport with an excellent gun. This unit costs only three points more than the Death Company. These guys don't have Feel No Pain or Furious Charge but since the vast majority of good Blood Angel lists are going to be taking Priests anyway this is hardly a problem.

 

We're getting to minutia here, and I think both of the above are effective units and inclusion of them or exclusion will largely depend on metagame and your army build. Though in terms of cost effectiveness, even just as a shooting magnet, the death company still win over this. However, part of the problem with this discussion is that DC just don't fill the same role as RAS, period.

 

Additionally, IMO you can't ignore the lack of priest since it actually 50 points more (at least) to gain benefits that the DC come standard with. Now, adding 50 points to that unit is more than enough to actually add another DC and upgrade their rhino to the same razorback the RAS have. At that point, the DC is the much better unit because, while they lack a melta, their shooting is improved and their combat potential is far and away better than that RAS unit. That RAS unit will be good in CC against some armies, but is both too small and doesn't have the hitting power the DC have. They trade that for scoring, which again brings us back to the point that overall, this is not a good comparison regardless.

 

As I've said before, in my area, a 10 man RAS squad even with a priest, does not hit hard enough to clean someone off an objective or have enough staying power (especially a small squad like the one above) to be effective. I need an elite unit to actually cause casualties to my opponents in close combat. Therefore as someone mentioned, I then consider SG, VV, DC, and Terminators. In terms of bang for buck, the DC have won out due to their cost effectiveness. But, that's in my area. In your metagame or others, you may not need an elite unit.