Newly back to 40k

[Praesul]

Well, from what I have been reading people generally feel that you need to either go Mech or a big static Gunline, I understand that capturing objectives is a large part of the game and that you want to negate enemy shooting, but is it really necessary to Mech up?

 

Right now I have, well, lost faith in the ol' Tac squad. I also have some Sternguard, just because I think the are probably one of the greatest things introduced in the new dex, finally shooting oriented vets! Other than that, some Vindi's, Typhoons, MM Speeders, Rhino/Razorbacks, Termi's, and a Dev Squad. Just about every character type.

 

Things I am having trouble with, dealing with competitive lists without following one of the cookie cutter lists.

 

I've been trying mixes of units, still not sure what to do. It seems Mech + Assault = Game.

[greatcrusade08]

meched space marines is part of the cookie cutter metagmae generation.. whilst its true tac squads are infinitely better when meched up you dotn need tac squads at all to win games.

 

Im also a big fan of doing things differently, but we cannot forget that 5th edition screams for troops choices, that either means tac squads or scouts... i prefer the latter myself as they have alot of tactical options that gunlne and massed tac armies dont

 

edit: oops wheres my manners... welcome back to the hobby :)

[Hellios]

Well, from what I have been reading people generally feel that you need to either go Mech or a big static Gunline, I understand that capturing objectives is a large part of the game and that you want to negate enemy shooting, but is it really necessary to Mech up?

 

Right now I have, well, lost faith in the ol' Tac squad. I also have some Sternguard, just because I think the are probably one of the greatest things introduced in the new dex, finally shooting oriented vets! Other than that, some Vindi's, Typhoons, MM Speeders, Rhino/Razorbacks, Termi's, and a Dev Squad. Just about every character type.

 

Things I am having trouble with, dealing with competitive lists without following one of the cookie cutter lists.

 

I've been trying mixes of units, still not sure what to do. It seems Mech + Assault = Game.

 

If you like Sternguard and are willing to to use a Kantor count as then you will not need to rely on tacticals or scouts as much because your sternguard will count as scoring.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

welcome back... for sure!! i dont know how or went you started but let me tell you a little story about 40k/games workshop.

I am sure other can site more and example that date further back but the purpose of enlightenment and focus, I'll speak freely and defend my statement at another time.. Back when i was driven home on a cold raining Tuesday evening by my mom, return home from the "toy store" i had in my hands a card board box.. and she asked... "how much was it?" i countered with "it was my allowance... i saved for it.. months.." i grumbled back.. she said " well what did you get for your efforts then? "30 SPACE MARINES mom" she glanced over at me, while waiting at the light... "space... marines..." (little did i know she was worried i was going to join the REAL marines...) "sounds like you got a lot of them..." she continued. "yeah..." i said and that was that i was lost in my head and you know all the rest... we all do... we that play with little plastic army men...

FAST FORWARD...3rd ed. is released... and players are going nuts... how do i fill a Force Chat?? how do you get my (insert chapter name here) up to play a proper point scale game... white dwarf had articels... hell Games Workshop used to have the OUTrider program... used to be a program to teach and demo games... long defucted and left for the bone polishers...and from that point.. and with the advent of the plastic base squad (example SM tact box, Eldar guardian box, ork boyz box,) Games work shop as lowered point vaules and raised MSRP on nearly all and every unit/model in the entire range... remember when 10 man tactical were $22.99? and what are they now? 37.00?? wow.. i mean the only thing in life i've found that cost the same, is playing music in a full band set up. Example: guitar $200-350, amp that can play with and over non mic drums...200-500... Cost of feilding that ork models counting as IG, with IG tanks and transports that mirrored the list that was in the IG codex release WD... it was the vet list that barely beat the 'nids... 485 dollars... i know gee... i mite think about starting a drug habit, might be cheaper... POINT is every turn of the season, the powers that be... crunch the number of who buys what and where and when, and then, they give a list of models that need rule changes... those models then get either re released and maybe a price increase if we're lucky or other units have their rules Nerfed because we all have purchased too many dreads with assault cannons and we as a whole have stop buying them... di you all spot the rule change the damage scale when the AOBR came out and the same time release of the Ageis gun line defence kit. Couple that with the re write of the left arm weapon+ the nerfing of the assualt cannon.. and how pior to that NO one was running dreads but maybe one Ven w/ AsC or a TLLC+ML another example is the newly re leased leman russ battle tank box.. i mean come on.. oooo more plastic guns... so i have to buy more hulls... or maybe next year GW will start selling us Magnets..i do not know as for what works and what doesnt.. MY advice would and will always be... choose the Fluff. that speaks to you... it's your cash.. they are your toys to play with, and do with what you will. if your into gaming at a local setting or store...and winning is of more importance then i would study, and pick a style of game play.. (Bannus rocks with his "tell me about..." posts.... and then find the rule set that matches which of the 4 style there are (remember that you can blend all 4 elements...) and once you find your rules... your will have a base for the models and then pick a theme if you so desire to chain your self(your pride) to a color.

 

Personally, i like black ultra marines with red trim... i know... but I am old and beardy i dont care Rant over..thanks for reading hope ya got a chuck or a grunt or something for your 2 1/2 mins

edited for use of internet short hand/Chatese

my bad

 

sorry total off topic.. point was FIGHT THE SYSTEM AND FOLLOW YOUR HEART, if its not they way they say you should win. learn to win with what you have.

[mowglie]

remember when 10 man tactical were $22.99? and what are they now? 37.00??

 

Sorry to be flippant, but how do the price rises look once you factor in like 15 years of inflation? I mean sure, I remember buying two rhinos for £5. That was what? Like 1992 or something...

 

I remember when a 10p mix cost 10p. :lol:

[Nougat]

Sorry to be flippant, but how do the price rises look once you factor in like 15 years of inflation? I mean sure, I remember buying two rhinos for £5. That was what? Like 1992 or something...

Inflation isn't THAT bad, especially considering the $22 to 37$ tactical squads isn't even one of the worst examples of price hikes. Models have approximately doubled in cost for me and I've only been playing since late Third Ed. I believe inflation in the past 10 years has been like 20-30% total? Not 100%.

[mowglie]

Inflation isn't THAT bad, especially considering the $22 to 37$ tactical squads isn't even one of the worst examples of price hikes. Models have approximately doubled in cost for me and I've only been playing since late Third Ed. I believe inflation in the past 10 years has been like 20-30% total? Not 100%.

 

I'd make it in the region of 50% over the last 15 years, but then I imagine GW have been hit particularly bad by rising labour and materials costs.

 

Depends which figures you're buying of course (like £9 for a single metal devastator?...), and where you take your data points from, but I'm really unconvinced that the rises are on the order of 100%.

 

To my knowledge, none of the people participating in the many "GW put prices up again!" discussions around the internet have really gone down into detail. You'd really need to get a 1995 price list and compare it to today. (or a 2000 one, I wouldn't try with the 2005 one because of the LotR bubble skewing your numbers).

 

I'm fairly certain the average rise is above inflation, but 1) not by that much, and 2) the kits we're getting now are vastly superior to the ones we got in the mid 90s.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

not to continue the hi jacking but...

Dreads.

 

1st..lets talk about the shift from metal to plastics...i'm sorry but in no way, is Games work shop putting out the same about of production cost to make metal large models. So how can you say that charging the gamer, the same cost as the metal model for a model made of plastic? but we keep buying

 

and as for infation(sp) i didnt post want i paided for that box did i? you can look it up.. it was $20 usa dollars , 19.95 +state tax... so like 21.50.. for 30... that's 3-0 space marines, 3 ML and 3 FL like 4 PF and yeah..lots and lots of bayonets

so how is 37+ for one ten may unit compare?? it doesnt. if fact to be honest, i refuse to play, "keep up with the jones" with gw product and if it wasnt for the AOBR box set at 50....which by the way is now 90, (that's +40 dollars on a half a yard..) and the "bit" sellers of internet, i would still only be reading BL books and playing my dusty copy of Chaos gate and firewarrior

in fact i spend most of my time twisting on squeezing the most out of my limited forces...

in fact i should write a "how to cheap you way into a 2500 point force:

 

and just in case you can't put all that together... x3 tactical boxes at my local game store at current MSRP<what gw expects the store sell their product at is 111.75$usda plus a 9% state sales tax..which my LGS offers a 10% off all GW products and 15% if ur total is greating that 125... soo.. the state tax washes and we're left with having 3 10 man squads, for 111.75 > comparde to 21.50....lets see 111.75/ by 21.50 while that's roughly a 5 x increase in profit.. or as i like to think... more souls to feed the carrion lord.

[DarkGuard]

Well, from what I have been reading people generally feel that you need to either go Mech or a big static Gunline, I understand that capturing objectives is a large part of the game and that you want to negate enemy shooting, but is it really necessary to Mech up?

 

Right now I have, well, lost faith in the ol' Tac squad. I also have some Sternguard, just because I think the are probably one of the greatest things introduced in the new dex, finally shooting oriented vets! Other than that, some Vindi's, Typhoons, MM Speeders, Rhino/Razorbacks, Termi's, and a Dev Squad. Just about every character type.

 

Things I am having trouble with, dealing with competitive lists without following one of the cookie cutter lists.

 

I've been trying mixes of units, still not sure what to do. It seems Mech + Assault = Game.

 

Back on topic.

 

I have played a mech list, but I have also played what I call a semi-mech list, or what others will call balanced. Both have done well for me, and I prefer the balanced list. Reason is mech seems so restricting on deployment, your zone gets clogged up by vehicles and you can't use all that lovely terrain properly... Furthermore, mech armies tend to have less troops than balanced, and if the enemy is geared for anti-mech then all of a sudden you may find yourself with a frail gunline army which can't perform as well.

 

Cookie cutter lists can be used by everyone, and require no finesse. Therefore I feel they aren't as rewarding. What does feel rewarding is tuning your list to your playstyle, including models that you like and want to use rather than the cookie cutter optimum lists. It may take a while, but you can get a good cohesive army that only you use. For example, everyone of my squads includes the option of armour in my list apart from a small Scout squad. However, I deploy a 10 man Tact Squad in cover while running their Razorback seperately. Not full mech, but still has a lot of mech and is more balanced in offering superior firepower (plasma cannon) and distraction abilities (scouts).

 

You don't have to mech up, but it is advisable to. However, you don't have to mech everything up, and provided your LGS doesn't have a ridiculous amount of anti-infantry firepower then you should be able to get away with the odd unit not being meched up.

 

In the end, go with what feels right, stick to your principles but don't be afraid to tinker here and there and try new things! Good luck. :D

[Mysticaria]

Rhino is a very cheap investment that protects the squad inside, provides greater mobility, and can grant cover to other more expensive models. On top of that, by putting troops inside vehicles it limits the weapons that can be used against the unit (i.e. S3-S4 shooting doesn't hurt things in rhinos). Given that only a handful of points adds so much to an army, of course it is easy to see why so many people take rhinos.

 

It isn't needed, but in my opinion troops that can be shot without first having to take out their vehicle are less effective than troops with a vehicle.

 

-Myst

[mowglie]

or as i like to think... more souls to feed the carrion lord.

 

The evil empire owns your soul!

 

I think a lot of the agro is because they're jacking their prices up and us poor addicts can't just stop buying :)

 

On-topic (and I'm very sorry for the hijack!):-

 

I don't think cookie-cutter is anything new. Sure, the game has got more competitive since 2e, but 2e (and certainly 3e) still pretty much had the same overarching strategic issues. Target denial is extremely effective, but it's not at all appropriate at your FLGS. Trouble is, some armies (i.e. us!) can play extreme target denial while sticking tightly to our fluff. This leads to lots of "Space Marines are OP!" because e.g. Eldar, Tau, Necron players have to really push the boundaries of their fluff to come up with a list with the same level of cheese.

 

A pick-n-mix variety of units has never been an effective way to win at 40k. Sad but true. If GW don't want spamming, they should come up with rules to discourage it.

 

My suggestion:-

 

Nominate one Troops choice in your codex. Every other unit, if you want duplicates you pay 50% more points for your 2nd and 100% more for your 3rd. Good for friendlies.

[Tanhausen]

@Praesul

 

Welcome back to the game.

 

Rather than mech vs gun-line... focus on what kind of games you are going to play.

 

1.- If you go for tournaments, playing the 3 standard missions bear in mind that:

 

a) 1 game is everything about Kill Points... so if you have transports/drop pods, they mean 1 KP each. You don't need to capture any target so its basically "dying less than the opponent"

 

:P bases, this game usually ends up in a draw, since you only need 1 miniature in your base to capture, so everybody camps back and try and dispute the enemy... usually with last minute Land Speeders or transports. If you do not have the mobility to constest your opponent's base, you are going to have a HARD time. Mobility = anything that moves 30+cm That can be assault marines, drop pods, bikes, land speeders...

 

c) 2+1D3 objectives: you actually only need to hold 1 more than your opponent. A common mistake is thinking "ok, 4 objectives, I need 3"... wrong... if you are able to just hold 1 and contest any objective your enemy holds, you win :)

 

2.- If you play non-tournaments, such as combat missions or whatever, then you need to understand what the goal of the game is and prepare for that.

 

Usually, its more of HOW you play than WHAT you play.

 

In my local area, Space Wolves are the kings. 3 Long Fangs with 5 Missiles each simply keep pounding and pounding and pounding until they flat you out... while they throw podded termies or a Land Raider at you.

 

Suprisingly, in the last tournament, 2nd and 3rd were Nids!!! Both are very good local players, both had completely different concept lists (one went for genestealers spam, the other for Nid warriors spam supported by a Tervigon and a Magwloc and a zillion gaunts). And first was Eldar!!

 

I play Deathwing. The dialogue usually goes something like

 

-"hahahah Dark Angels? They are so outdated... what do you list?"

- "Terminators"

- "and?"

- "MORE terminators"

- Starts sweating

- I start smiling :P

 

My list is unconventional, not very competitive due to codex asyncronicities and certainly HARD to play... but I have fun. I don't give a (fill with appropiate word) about winning...I'm all into learning, having a good time and if my opponent does pack a decent list and beats me, good for him!

 

Well, this turned out quite longer than I expected, but hope it helps :)

[MrPants888]

Rhino is a very cheap investment that protects the squad inside, provides greater mobility, and can grant cover to other more expensive models. On top of that, by putting troops inside vehicles it limits the weapons that can be used against the unit (i.e. S3-S4 shooting doesn't hurt things in rhinos). Given that only a handful of points adds so much to an army, of course it is easy to see why so many people take rhinos.

 

It isn't needed, but in my opinion troops that can be shot without first having to take out their vehicle are less effective than troops with a vehicle.

 

-Myst

 

 

He speaks truth. 35 points is a very small price to pay for a force multiplier like the Rhino. You can even shoot heavy/special weapons out of the hatch (if you don't move the heavy, of course) so the squad inside is not useless.

 

Even if you disembark the squad inside, the Rhino is still extremely useful. You can tank shock enemies off of objectives late-game (I think you can contest objectives also, but I'm not sure). You can block fire-lanes, use it to cover other units, block infantry from charging your units, and etc. I am sure other people use them in other ways, too.