Traitor INSPIRED loyal chapter

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

It's generally seen as a bad thing to create a loyal chapter that has been created using the genetic stock of the traitor legions, is it more viable to create a successor chapter from loyal primogenetors that are essentially the same thing as the pre-heresy traitor legions? The reason I ask is because there have been quiet a few DIY chapters that I have created and when all was said and done I looked at the chapters as a whole I realised if the traitor legions had stayed loyal and created second founding chapters these could be those.

 

Alot of people have suggested that I should just have their genetic history be a secret or unknown and I don't really like that, so of course these chapters would have differant names from the traitors and differant colors and backgrounds but in the end their combat doctrines, beliefs and such would be the same as the traitors but with loyal gene seed and slightly differant traits (though dulled down to where their practices are acceptable by the Imperium) as many of the traitor legions have counterparts in the loyal legions.

 

And I know some people are going to say well if they are based off of the loyal counterpart to the traitors and come from them then just forget the whole traitor thing entirely. The thing is 1 I dont want to and 2 these chapters have more of the aspects of the legions who turned traitor than those who stayed loyal. Maybe they could be founded with the purpose of hunting down those legions that turned and so they are trained to best match them in combat, have them be legion hunters with the whole "fight fire with fire" thing. So is this more acceptable?

[RagingGriffon]

I'm not sure of your question...

 

Are you asking, for example, is ok to make a White Scars successor that uses rage enhancing brain-implants with the single purpose of killing World Eaters?

 

Or you asking is it ok to create a Chapter that, for example, is Raven Guard lineage but is high psyker and is used to hunt Thousand Sons (which is a cool idea. Dibs)

 

I guess you need to tighten up your question.

[Brother Daeger Helsir]

I'm not sure how well I understand your question, but using the example of the Traitor Legions in their heroic pre-heresy incarnations as a source of fluff to draw upon in creating a new chapter of Space Marines is an excellent idea. The very nature of the Heresy is that we look to these mighty, now-fallen heroes and mourn the loss of their goodness, a goodness that we wish we could rescue or salvage, but know that we can't because without their fall the story is cheapened.

 

If, however, you take the admirable aspects and use them as inspiration to create a new chapter of Space Marines, you and your buds get to have the joy of playing with a force that keeps all of what makes you like the Traitor Legions before their fall, while maintaining the literary integrity of what happened to those chapters.

 

Long story short, sounds promising, and if done well, likely to be extremely awesome.

[Octavulg]

The trick is having a plausible explanation for how the Chapter ended up as it did. Without that, it really doesn't work.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

I'm not sure how well I understand your question, but using the example of the Traitor Legions in their heroic pre-heresy incarnations as a source of fluff to draw upon in creating a new chapter of Space Marines is an excellent idea. The very nature of the Heresy is that we look to these mighty, now-fallen heroes and mourn the loss of their goodness, a goodness that we wish we could rescue or salvage, but know that we can't because without their fall the story is cheapened.

 

If, however, you take the admirable aspects and use them as inspiration to create a new chapter of Space Marines, you and your buds get to have the joy of playing with a force that keeps all of what makes you like the Traitor Legions before their fall, while maintaining the literary integrity of what happened to those chapters.

 

Long story short, sounds promising, and if done well, likely to be extremely awesome.

 

Exactly this is what I ment. Sorry If my OP got confusing :lol: I have 3 DIY chapters that are loyal but they were inspired by the the pre heresy traitor legions (The Dire Guard inspired by the Death Guard, The Knights Aquilla inspired by the Emperors Children and the Ghosts of War inspired by the Night Lords) and originally my plan was to have them be loyal successors who where founded using traitor gene seed still stored in the vaults either on Terra or Mars but I found out that is strongly disliked. So yes to refrase is it more viable to have a loyal successor chapter which mirrors the pre heresy traitor legions.

 

And the whole thing behind legion hunting (psyker Raven Guard hunting TS is good kudos) was just an idea almost like the Astartes Praeses, maybe have them be the Astartes Venases ( from the Latin Venator which means hunter)

[RagingGriffon]

I just want to go on record and say there was nothing really "good" about the Night Lords. THeir tragedy was they gave up their humanity for the Emperor. They were fallen even before Horus turned. They did some pretty brutal things to subdue humanity. I don't think it is possible to make a Loyalist Chapter based on NLs.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

I just want to go on record and say there was nothing really "good" about the Night Lords. THeir tragedy was they gave up their humanity for the Emperor. They were fallen even before Horus turned. They did some pretty brutal things to subdue humanity. I don't think it is possible to make a Loyalist Chapter based on NLs.

 

I can't agree with that. The Night Lords may have been bat ;): crazy (get the pun? :) ) but for awhile they where an effective force for the Imperium they where just very brutal in the way they did things which is no differant than the World Eaters except the World Eaters used brutal meat grinder force where as the Night Lords used terror tactics and stealth. My Ghosts of War chapter are stealth experts who use fear against their enemy, they often deploy small commando like squads who will be tasked with spreading fear amongst the enemy which then makes them easier to kill for strike teams. And don't forget that prior to being found by the Emperor Konrad Curze had turned Nocturne into a peacefull planet with no crime. The Night Lords where just a little to excessive in their practices which started when Curze left his homeworld and the legion started recruiting criminals.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Exactly this is what I ment. Sorry If my OP got confusing ;) I have 3 DIY chapters that are loyal but they were inspired by the the pre heresy traitor legions (The Dire Guard inspired by the Death Guard, The Knights Aquilla inspired by the Emperors Children and the Ghosts of War inspired by the Night Lords) and originally my plan was to have them be loyal successors who where founded using traitor gene seed still stored in the vaults either on Terra or Mars but I found out that is strongly disliked. So yes to refrase is it more viable to have a loyal successor chapter which mirrors the pre heresy traitor legions.

I think the problem people had with your ideas, is that you openly stated the loyalist Chapter used traitor gene-seed, instead of HINTING that this was done.

 

Case in point: The post-Heresy Imperium will not KNOWINGLY use traitor gene-seed, but how do people know where the gene-seed came from? The AdMech is probably the only organization able to perform DNA testing, and if they deny the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons successors, who can argue with that? If you hint that the Ghosts of War may have Night Lords gene-seed, but REFRAIN from openly stating, "The Ghosts of War was founded using Night Lords gene-seed," people will probably be okay with that.

 

Example: "The Ghosts of War, terror is the greatest weapon in their arsenal. Such tactics have drawn unfavorable comparisons to the Night Lords, and the Inquisition has even voiced suspicion the Chapter uses Night Lords gene-seed, but without access the Adeptus Mechanicus' records, it is impossible to test whether the Ghosts of War share the Traitor Legion's genetic markers."

[RagingGriffon]

Konrad Curze had turned Nocturne into a peacefull planet with no crime.

 

Curze captured criminals and strung their desecrated bodies to where gang bosses would find them. He was doing brutal things before the Emperor showed up. There was no crime because people were afraid. Like when you were a a little kid afraid of the boogey-man. Sheer terror. When he left, the criminals went right back to business as usual.

 

The only way you could instill the same type of fear that the NLs used is to maim your enemies. That would not fly in the current Imperium. Now, you could be sneaky sneaky, and take out leadership, and have ambushes where no-one is left alive, but you would be instilling more of a "no-hope" type feeling. To truly cause fear you need to way past what is acceptable by Loyalists.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

Konrad Curze had turned Nocturne into a peacefull planet with no crime.

 

Curze captured criminals and strung their desecrated bodies to where gang bosses would find them. He was doing brutal things before the Emperor showed up. There was no crime because people were afraid. Like when you were a a little kid afraid of the boogey-man. Sheer terror. When he left, the criminals went right back to business as usual.

 

The only way you could instill the same type of fear that the NLs used is to maim your enemies. That would not fly in the current Imperium. Now, you could be sneaky sneaky, and take out leadership, and have ambushes where no-one is left alive, but you would be instilling more of a "no-hope" type feeling. To truly cause fear you need to way past what is acceptable by Loyalists.

 

Maiming enemies is not the only type of terror tactics and even if it was your saying that the Imperium woulden't be ok with the main Ork camp of a Waaagh settling down for the night (if its even possible for Orks to settle down) and to wake up in the morning to find their warbosses head impaled on his own boss pole and his own squig eating his body? Or for an Ethereal to be pinned to his bed by his own honor blade? I can't see the Imperium having ANY problems with that.

 

You just reiterated what i said that it was after Curze left that the gangs took up their old ways, and even though he kept the peace through fear isn't that apart of what the Imperium is? don't the Inquisitors keep order through fear? and also these aren't loyal Imperial citizens they are chaos traitors and xenos.

 

The problem with the Night Lords is that they used their tactics against imperial citizens in order to keep them in line. And the whole point of this is to emmulate the good traits of the pre heresy traitor legions in these successor chapters without the extremes (in this case going awol against citizens) and not perfectly copy them. As I said maiming bodies is not the only form of terror tactics and so again it is possible to make a good successor chapter based off of the Night Lords.

[RagingGriffon]

I thought it was understood we talking about humans. Xenos don't matter.

 

Also, you never said the gangs took up their own ways after Curze left.

 

In any event, sure you can have Chapter that impales Tau, and Orks, and rebellious governors, but it is a slippery slope once you start doing it to "rebellious" humans.

 

There are two "Traitor" Legions you cannot really emmulate. World Eaters? Not really. Night Lords? Nope. You might as well pick Raven Guard.

 

The thing is most of the Traitors were done in extremes, and there is a more moderate version of them in the Loyalist Chapters (except Word Bearers). I think the only ones they could have swapped were Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors. I think they were both so close going either way.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is: if you want to look at a Traitor Legion as inspiration, sure you can. However, there is probably a Chapter similar to them on the loyalist side you can see how it was done "right."

[Arnil]

We are space marines! All actions we take are in HIS name! We torture and maim TRATORS and ALIENS and MUTANTS! Here is what you say.

 

Ghosts of War have found that the most effective way to subjugate a population is the kill it's spirit. They use fear and terror tactics to slay a million hearts with the blood of a few. In controlling rebellious worlds they kill a small fraction of the population in horrible and brutal public ways until the rebellion stops. They have been praised for their ability to control a world with small collateral damage! When fighting aliens they are masters of surprise attacks so that even orks are more cautious when walking through a Ghosts of War sighted area. As a White Scars successor they know that the power of one man can control an empire. Their use of fear against the enemies of the imperium have been speculated to be reminiscent of the Excomuncate Tratorus legion The Night Lords by certain Puritan inquisition forces. But there is little evidence to support an investigation and they have simply been put under watch just in case. However, many consider the Ghosts of War blessed by the emperor and their success rate does speak for itself...

 

Something like this hahaha would work fine! It gives them an alibi and relates them to the Night Lords! I don't think you wanted a trator successor just a chapter similar in form and function!

[RagingGriffon]

We are space marines! All actions we take are in HIS name! We torture and maim TRATORS and ALIENS and MUTANTS! Here is what you say.

 

Ghosts of War have found that the most effective way to subjugate a population is the kill it's spirit. They use fear and terror tactics to slay a million hearts with the blood of a few. In controlling rebellious worlds they kill a small fraction of the population in horrible and brutal public ways until the rebellion stops. They have been praised for their ability to control a world with small collateral damage! When fighting aliens they are masters of surprise attacks so that even orks are more cautious when walking through a Ghosts of War sighted area. As a White Scars successor they know that the power of one man can control an empire. Their use of fear against the enemies of the imperium have been speculated to be reminiscent of the Excomuncate Tratorus legion The Night Lords by certain Puritan inquisition forces. But there is little evidence to support an investigation and they have simply been put under watch just in case. However, many consider the Ghosts of War blessed by the emperor and their success rate does speak for itself...

 

Something like this hahaha would work fine! It gives them an alibi and relates them to the Night Lords! I don't think you wanted a trator successor just a chapter similar in form and function!

 

Well played, Arnil. Well played, indeed. That is solid fluff writing. Man, you should do an IA.

 

I just think if you are looking for traits in a Traitor Legion, then there is also a Loyalist Legion you can use. Once a Traitor Legion's name is thrown around, things are going to get nasty quick. I doubt those Horus Heresy Legion names are used much unless it is absolutely necessary.

[Brother Daeger Helsir]

Heh, that's great fluff. Their ultimate threat after subjugating a planet; "If you misbehave, we'll come back."

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

I thought it was understood we talking about humans. Xenos don't matter.

 

Also, you never said the gangs took up their own ways after Curze left.

 

In any event, sure you can have Chapter that impales Tau, and Orks, and rebellious governors, but it is a slippery slope once you start doing it to "rebellious" humans.

 

There are two "Traitor" Legions you cannot really emmulate. World Eaters? Not really. Night Lords? Nope. You might as well pick Raven Guard.

 

The thing is most of the Traitors were done in extremes, and there is a more moderate version of them in the Loyalist Chapters (except Word Bearers). I think the only ones they could have swapped were Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors. I think they were both so close going either way.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is: if you want to look at a Traitor Legion as inspiration, sure you can. However, there is probably a Chapter similar to them on the loyalist side you can see how it was done "right."

 

I never said we were talking about humans?

 

As for not emmulating the World Eaters and NIGHT lords EVERY traitor legion has a counter part to in the loyal legions. For the World Eaters it's the Blood Angels who the World Eaters had a rivalry with the BA post heresy. I'm sorry but I just don't agree with you that they can't be emmulated. And of course the could be interchanged. World Eaters and Blood Angels, Raven Guard and Night Lords, Luna Wolves and Ultramarines. Sure there are some who are harder to interchange but that isn't the main point of this. Also while some legions may not be interchangable exactly successor chapters do diverge from their parent chapters original teachings.

 

We are space marines! All actions we take are in HIS name! We torture and maim TRATORS and ALIENS and MUTANTS! Here is what you say.

 

Ghosts of War have found that the most effective way to subjugate a population is the kill it's spirit. They use fear and terror tactics to slay a million hearts with the blood of a few. In controlling rebellious worlds they kill a small fraction of the population in horrible and brutal public ways until the rebellion stops. They have been praised for their ability to control a world with small collateral damage! When fighting aliens they are masters of surprise attacks so that even orks are more cautious when walking through a Ghosts of War sighted area. As a White Scars successor they know that the power of one man can control an empire. Their use of fear against the enemies of the imperium have been speculated to be reminiscent of the Excomuncate Tratorus legion The Night Lords by certain Puritan inquisition forces. But there is little evidence to support an investigation and they have simply been put under watch just in case. However, many consider the Ghosts of War blessed by the emperor and their success rate does speak for itself...

 

Something like this hahaha would work fine! It gives them an alibi and relates them to the Night Lords! I don't think you wanted a trator successor just a chapter similar in form and function!

 

I actually really like that. Mind if I snatch it? with a few changes however (my chapter comes from Raven Guard not White Scars)

 

We are space marines! All actions we take are in HIS name! We torture and maim TRATORS and ALIENS and MUTANTS! Here is what you say.

 

Ghosts of War have found that the most effective way to subjugate a population is the kill it's spirit. They use fear and terror tactics to slay a million hearts with the blood of a few. In controlling rebellious worlds they kill a small fraction of the population in horrible and brutal public ways until the rebellion stops. They have been praised for their ability to control a world with small collateral damage! When fighting aliens they are masters of surprise attacks so that even orks are more cautious when walking through a Ghosts of War sighted area. As a White Scars successor they know that the power of one man can control an empire. Their use of fear against the enemies of the imperium have been speculated to be reminiscent of the Excomuncate Tratorus legion The Night Lords by certain Puritan inquisition forces. But there is little evidence to support an investigation and they have simply been put under watch just in case. However, many consider the Ghosts of War blessed by the emperor and their success rate does speak for itself...

 

Something like this hahaha would work fine! It gives them an alibi and relates them to the Night Lords! I don't think you wanted a trator successor just a chapter similar in form and function!

 

Well played, Arnil. Well played, indeed. That is solid fluff writing. Man, you should do an IA.

 

I just think if you are looking for traits in a Traitor Legion, then there is also a Loyalist Legion you can use. Once a Traitor Legion's name is thrown around, things are going to get nasty quick. I doubt those Horus Heresy Legion names are used much unless it is absolutely necessary.

 

Again this isn't about having them come from a traitor legion it's about them coming from a loyal legion but emmulating the good traits of the traitor legions.

[Arnil]

@Jarl: Feel free to! And yeah change it up lol I just like plugging my favorite chapter into the things I write hahaha!

 

@The Griffon of Rage: thank you! I spent my first few months of Bolter and Chainsword In the IA forums so I would say I'm a product of this fine community!

 

And I agree with the idea that to speak a trator name without reason is tantamount to heresy itself! Only radical or Puritan inquisitors would dare to do it...or the admech...or astartes....or the high lords...or the soroitas...a few others..?

[Shinzaren]

. And don't forget that prior to being found by the Emperor Konrad Curze had turned Nocturne i

 

Nocturne was Vulkan, Curze was on Nostramo. Small point, but comparing Nocturne to Nostramo won't make your chapter too many Salamander friends...

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Again this isn't about having them come from a traitor legion it's about them coming from a loyal legion but emmulating the good traits of the traitor legions.

A loyalist Chapter will NEVER admit a Traitor Legion has good traits, even if it's emulating... say, the World Eaters' martial honor. Inviting comparison to the Great Enemy is like inviting an ass-whooping, from the angry Marines you just insulted, or from the INQUISITION.

[RagingGriffon]

Again this isn't about having them come from a traitor legion it's about them coming from a loyal legion but emmulating the good traits of the traitor legions.

A loyalist Chapter will NEVER admit a Traitor Legion has good traits, even if it's emulating... say, the World Eaters' martial honor. Inviting comparison to the Great Enemy is like inviting an ass-whooping, from the angry Marines you just insulted, or from the INQUISITION.

 

Concur. Jarl, you said yourself your Chapter is based off of the Raven Guard. So, why do you need to base your Chapter off of Night Lords when they do pretty much the same thing but in an honorable way? It seems you are stuck on the Traitor Legions and you are just trying to justify introducing them into your fluff.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

Again this isn't about having them come from a traitor legion it's about them coming from a loyal legion but emmulating the good traits of the traitor legions.

A loyalist Chapter will NEVER admit a Traitor Legion has good traits, even if it's emulating... say, the World Eaters' martial honor. Inviting comparison to the Great Enemy is like inviting an ass-whooping, from the angry Marines you just insulted, or from the INQUISITION.

 

With all due respect who said anything about a loyalist chapter comparing themselves to the traitors? I know I didn't, I didn't say that my chapter master would be like "Oh yes we are just as good in massacres as the World Eaters" :D. It's gamer knowledge that the legions had good traits prior to their turning and you said that a loyalist chapter would never admit that a traitor legion had good traits which is true but that dosen't take away the fact that the traitor legions where skilled in their various forms of warfare and where a valuable asset to the Imperium and it dosent mean that a chapter coulden't develop those same traits without falling to chaos. The chapters in no way idolise or compare themselves to the traitors, they simply have developed along the same lines.

 

Again this isn't about having them come from a traitor legion it's about them coming from a loyal legion but emmulating the good traits of the traitor legions.

A loyalist Chapter will NEVER admit a Traitor Legion has good traits, even if it's emulating... say, the World Eaters' martial honor. Inviting comparison to the Great Enemy is like inviting an ass-whooping, from the angry Marines you just insulted, or from the INQUISITION.

 

Concur. Jarl, you said yourself your Chapter is based off of the Raven Guard. So, why do you need to base your Chapter off of Night Lords when they do pretty much the same thing but in an honorable way? It seems you are stuck on the Traitor Legions and you are just trying to justify introducing them into your fluff.

 

@ RagingGriffon: Go back and re-read what I said. The chapter is a successor of the Raven Guard not based off of them. Why would I start an entire topic concerning having my DIY chapters be based off of the traitor legions to turn around and say that they are based off of a loyal legion? I woulden't because they aren't. And not to be rude but I think you finally got the point of this whole discussion which is about having loyal successor chapters from loyalist legions that embody the good traits of the traitor legions pre-heresy which from a martial standpoint ALL of them had.

 

Now you dissagree that some of the legions had good traits which could be emmulated in a loyal chapter minus the extremes and thats fine it's your opinion but that does not change the fact that a chapter could develop along the same lines as one of the traitor legions using the same tactics and having the same beliefs without turning to chaos. It's the same principle as having a pre-heresy traitor legion army except I want to do it post heresy and since it is frowned upon to have a loyal chapter of traitor gene seed your right that this is how I am doing it. So I for one am glad you finally get it

[RagingGriffon]

This is the last thing I am going to post. There is no need to even mention a Traitor Legion unless you are saying your Chapter has fought them or you are doing a Traitor Legion warband.

 

I don't see the point of having a Raven Guard successor who emulates Night Legion's tactics. Why? Because you can have a Raven Guard successor that emulates the Raven Guard because they pretty much do the same thing, tactically.

 

There is a BIG difference between TRAITS and TACTICS, and I think you have them confused. A trait is a personality description. If your DIY Chapter emulated the traits of a Traitor Legion then they would eventually fall to Chaos. For example: A Night Lord's trait could be that the ends justifies the means. The tactics they used was they would do brutal things to instill fear so people would be compliant.

 

Now, if you are going to emulate the tactics of a Traitor Legion, I suppose you could that but there is probably a Loyalist Chapter that used the "good" form of tactics. If you are so hung up on fear tactics, and hit and run, and all that you have mentioned before... the "good" version of this would be Raven Guard, the "bad" version of this would be Night Lords.

 

So, in summary: You pretty much cannot emulate the traits of a Traitor Legion without falling to Chaos. You can emulate the "good" tactics of a Traitor Legion, but there is probably a Loyalist Legion that already does this.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

To the Salamanders players who have read this I apologise for the planetary mix up posted earlier

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

Also this quote covers my idea and the purpose of this post so well I would like to post it again so that those who have just started reading this can understand what this topic is about as my OP is a little confusing

 

I'm not sure how well I understand your question, but using the example of the Traitor Legions in their heroic pre-heresy incarnations as a source of fluff to draw upon in creating a new chapter of Space Marines is an excellent idea. The very nature of the Heresy is that we look to these mighty, now-fallen heroes and mourn the loss of their goodness, a goodness that we wish we could rescue or salvage, but know that we can't because without their fall the story is cheapened.

 

If, however, you take the admirable aspects and use them as inspiration to create a new chapter of Space Marines, you and your buds get to have the joy of playing with a force that keeps all of what makes you like the Traitor Legions before their fall, while maintaining the literary integrity of what happened to those chapters.

 

Long story short, sounds promising, and if done well, likely to be extremely awesome.

[Arikel]

I'm not so sure about this thing people seem to have about marines not using excessive force in the emperor's name, it actually seems like it is relatively common place, the Marines Malevolent tend to kill any imperial citizens that get in their line of fire, the Iron Hands killed 1 out of every 3 citizens in their purge of Contqual as punishment for letting their leaders fall to Chaos, keep in mind this included the cities/worlds that surrendered to them without a fight, and The Flesh Tearers are rumored to eat the flesh not only of their enemies but also the bodies of the fallen Imperial Guard soldiers that fight with them, including the rumor that sometimes it's the berserk marines themselves attacking their allies in a blood rage.

 

Marines are all excellent warriors, and utterly devoted to the Emperor, but do keep in mind that they are for the main part fanatics, and there is very little fanatics won't do in the name of their cause, even if it seems that what they're doing is directly contrary to the ideals and virtues that their cause promotes.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

Also I think that those humans that the astartes would fight would be either heretics who turned to chaos or those who have seperated themselves from the Imperium entirely (gue'vesa) and I think every faction of the Imperium would be brutal to those groups.

 

I also am starting to like the idea of the Astartes Venases, chapters who have been created and trained specificly to hunt down the fallen legions. Kind of like the opposite of the Astartes Praeses. What do you guys think about this idea?