Is a Landraider really neccessary for assault units

[Giga]

How many points is that versus only 220 points of terminators?

~620 points, or so. This is just fine, though - space marines are an elite generalist army, and all elite generalist armies in pretty much every strategy game rely dividing & conquering their enemy (not necessarily literally, but you get the idea). If you take vanilla marines, and split them in such a way that similarly priced units in your army go against similarly priced units in more specialized and/or less elite armies, chances are the marines are going to lose.

 

An example of this would be a 10 men tac squad with power fist and combiflamer (costs 205 pts) facing off against a 30 boyz mob with powerclaw nob (215 pts, if memory serves). Both are troop infantry choices, both have a similar price, one is a generalist elite, another is a specialized non-elite, both have a powerfist sergeant. If the marines go first, depending on range they will on average kill 10-15 orks. Then they will get charged and slaughtered up close. If orks go first, they charge the marines and kill them with massed attacks. It's a lose-lose situation for the marines, because marines were never designed to work without support, and because they're an elite unit against a disposable swarm unit.

 

It works exactly the same way with th/ss termies, who are a pure assault specialist unit (one of the few specialized AND effective units in the vanilla dex). Throw 200 points of something else at them, and it's unlikely to do much. The trick is in drawing the enemy into a position where you can apply overwhelming firepower on one or two crucial units, and then prevent him from hitting you in return.

True. But the 3++ termies can do absolutely nothing until they get into assault range.

But they can. They are massive target saturation asset. Even after they're out of their LR, 5 terminators moving 6" and then running across the board will draw a ton of firepower, and will also absorb a ton - especially if you have a character to absorb wounds. Shooty termies are simply going to be slaughtered in an assault from a monstrous creature (a warptime daemon prince comes to mind, or a flyrant, or mephiston!), or shot into inefficiency by all the melta that armies are totting nowadays.

 

Also, a 5 men shooty terminator unit with cyclone missile launcher gets 10 stormbolter shots and 2 missile shots per turn. Not BAD, but not really good, either, considering they cost 230 pts and can be killed by just about anything and are inefficient in assault unless they're facing units without power weapons. The point is, if I wanted shooting, I'd just spend those points on 2 typhoon speeders, or add some points and take dual rifleman dreadnoughts, etc.

[Tanhausen]

@Captain Idaho

 

First, bear in mind English is my third language, so sometimes I don't quite fine tune the tone ;)

 

When I say flawed I mean that I wouldn't use the concept "assault unit, LR or not" because not all assault units can be compared.

 

For example, if you tool some assault marines, no JPs, then you can choose between LR, rhino/razor or simply footslogging. But if you talk about terminators, you only get down to 2 options... hopefully I'm getting the idea accross, not very lucid today! ;)

 

Another thing would be saying "assault marines with JPs vs hammenators in LR vs veterans in a razor". With that line of reasoning, its quite easier to compare and bring up pros/cons.

 

That said, I liked the idea someone wrote "people take LRs 'cuz its a safe bet". It's also a no-brainer and WAY easier to go... I tried a double LR with termis + Belial + Sammy + 8 Ls this weekend vs a BA with 2 LR 2 Predators Termis and DC (and some troops) and man, was that a boring game!

[Captain Idaho]

First, bear in mind English is my third language, so sometimes I don't quite fine tune the tone

 

No worries, twas just a little confused as to the direction we were headed. (oh and your English is exceptional mate)

 

Another thing would be saying "assault marines with JPs vs hammenators in LR vs veterans in a razor". With that line of reasoning, its quite easier to compare and bring up pros/cons.

 

Yeah, a summary would be helpful. But not tonight, the misses has just wasted alot of my time making me watch Titannic on the TV, and I have no energy left. ;)

[mowglie]

Ok, got some time now for a proper reply.

 

First let's agree on some facts.

 

The Rhino costs 35 points. The Land Raider costs ~250 points. The Rhino costs about 215 points less than the Land Raider.

 

The Rhino is AV 11/10. The Land Raider is AV 14 all around. The Land Raider is significantly more resilient than the Rhino.

 

The Land Raider is an assault vehicle. The Rhino is not. You cannot assault out of a moving Rhino

 

Now let's set some core assumptions.

 

Whenever I say "Rhino", please assume that I mean "Rhino or Razorback, as appropriate".

 

In-keeping with the spirit of the thread, let's make some assumptions about our army. We're not Blood Angels, so we're not spamming assault units in Razorbacks. At least 500 points of our army comes from the Troops section of C:SM. Probably 2 tactical squads, and so not assault specialists (although no slouches by any means).

 

At 1500-2500 points, the assault unit is probably the only assault specialist in our army. Let's for the sake of argument say that it costs about 200 points either way, and it's worth those 200 points easily assuming it gets into combat.

 

In any given matchup, the assault unit is either more threatening than the rest of your army (in which case your opponent will be prioritising stopping it), or it will be less threatening than the rest of your army (in which case your opponent will be ignoring it). I will not consider cases where your opponent makes the incorrect assessment - I assume that you will make as many mistakes as your opponent - unless you only play against players who are much worse than you, in which case you don't need our help :P

 

Now, given our assumptions, let's address the implications of the facts.

 

Let's start with Rhino vs Assault Vehicle.

 

The Land Raider can move 12", disembark 2", assault 6". An assault unit in a Land Raider has a 20" threat bubble.

 

If the Rhino must remain stationary, disembark 2", move 6", assault 6". An assault unit in a Rhino has a 14" threat bubble.

 

(In practise, the difference between the locations of the access points means a further 2-3" swing in favour of the Land Raider - unless you pivot the Rhino so that its rear is facing your opponent in your previous turn - and in that case your opponent gets a turn shooting at the Rhino at AV10)

 

The main problem with a 14" threat bubble vs a 20" threat bubble is that either you are 8-14" away and the target you plan to assault can move out of assault range, or you are 0-8" away and the target you plan to assault can assault your Rhino first. This is particularly dangerous if the enemy is numerous enough to surround the tank during their assault as this will automatically destroy the unit inside.

 

The second problem with a 14" threat bubble is that it's more predictable. Your opponent can see what target you plan to assault because you're more likely to have to move towards it on the previous turn.

 

Next let's address the Land Raider's resilience.

 

The thing that frustrates me most in this thread is all of the "The Land Raider will be immobilised on turn 1 by a lascannon" vs "the Rhino is resilient enough." I'm sorry, but the Land Raider is significantly more resilient than the Rhino vs any non-Gauss weapon.

 

A turn 1 lascannon fired at a Rhino by a BS4 model has => 1 shot => 2/3 hits => 2/18 glancing hits + 8/18 penetrating hits => 2/108 immob from glance + 8/36 immob or better from pen = a 24% chance of immobilising or better.

 

A turn 1 lascannon fired at a Land Raider by a BS4 model has => 1 shot => 2/3 hits => 2/18 glancing hits + 2/18 penetrating hits => 2/108 immob from glance + 2/36 immob or better from pen = a 7% chance of immobilising or better.

 

A stray lascannon shot is more than three times as likely to immobilise or destroy a Rhino than a Land Raider! To have a better than 50% chance of killing a Rhino, you need to fire 3 Lascannons at it. To have a better than 50% chance of killing a Land Raider, you need to fire 10 Lascannons at it!

 

Additionally, the Land Raider is immune to Autocannons, Scatter Lasers, Krak Grenades, etc and is almost immune to Krak Missiles, S8 Power Fists, and Melta weapons above half range, etc.

 

The gap is smaller with Melta weapons at closer than half range. I'll number crunch that if you like, but the main thing is that your Fast Melta has to get within half range of a Land Raider, wheras you can safely snipe a Rhino with Melta from 24". Fast Melta still kills Rhinos harder than it kills Land Raiders.

 

That brings us back to the points difference. There are two important things to consider here.

 

1) The Godhammer brings two 2L-Lascannons over a Razorback - almost as much firepower as a Tri-Las Pred. The Crusader and Redeemer bring their own flavours.

 

2) Sure, you get 200 more points of stuff in your army (say, a Vindicator and a Dakka Pred? Was that the comparison earlier?). Your opponent, however, has to invest significantly less firepower in killing the Rhino. The leftover firepower can go towards balancing the scales.

 

Conclusion

 

Is the advantage worth 200 points? I'd look at it a different way:-

 

I don't like playing single assault units at all, but I particularly don't like playing them in a Rhino. Either it is important that your opponent stops them, or it is not. If it is important, he can stop an assault unit in a Rhino much more easily than he can stop an assault unit in a Land Raider.

 

My opinion is that if you want to take a single 200pt+ "hammer" assault unit, you should take it in a Land Raider (and yes, you should probably take hammernators, but we discussed that already ^^). If you take it in a Rhino it is not capable of doing its job on the battlefield.

 

If it's not worth paying for the Land Raider, then in my opinion you should not take a single assault hammer in the first place.

 

Even in a rhino, your army still has a single point of failure. You've got a few fewer eggs in your basket, but your basket is way more fragile.

 

Directly comparing Idaho's HG+RB with Giga's Hammernators in LR, I don't see that 385 eggs in an AV11 basket is any better than 450 eggs in an AV14 basket with four extra lascannons strapped to it!

 

--

 

There are exceptions. Mainly if you have assault units as troops (e.g. Blood Angels), now your opponent can't choose between picking out your assault unit and ignoring your assault unit. Now you're fine with Razorbacks because some will definitely make it, and the others can footslog while your opponent's shooting is tied up in assault (BA's FNP bubbles also don't hurt!)

 

I'd like to address the deeper issue, though.

 

This debate (and several others) don't seem to be about "Is X better than Y". They seem to be about "Everyone does X, and I don't want to do the same as everyone because that's boring." Everyone wants to be a unique snowflake, and so everyone is arguing that their own wacky combo is "as good" - usually for "metagame" reasons. I think this is a fallacy that holds people back. Underpowered units don't suddenly get good just because your opponent was expecting good units.

 

It's not rock-paper scissors between VV, HG, and Hammernators. If Hammernators in an LR is rock, Power Armoured assault specialists in a Rhino are like another rock, except a bit cheaper and not as good.

[mowglie]

Calling out some specifics:-

 

The short answer is that if your battle plan revolves around the Assault unit in question getting into combat with a choice target, then the Land Raider is essential.

 

If your battle plan revolves around other things, and your Assault unit is only there in support ef those other things, then a regular Transport may be OK.

 

I agree with this. However, I'd say "Your battle plan should not revolve around the Assault unit in question getting into combat with a choice target" and "If your battle plan revolves around other things, you probably shouldn't be spending the 350-450 points in the first place". :P

 

from my own experience, everyone and their mum takes enough fast melta to deal with a single land raider.. if you have (like my calgar/HG list) a 500+ point unit sitting in a raider it will get shot down very quickly.

 

I agree with your points about honour guard, a small unit with a Chapter master isnt going to cost the earth and if they die then they have drawn heavy weapon fire away from other choice targets.. i like the way you use them alongside the other rhino borne units in your army, adds a little cohesion and throws some counter attacking ability to your tacticals.

 

I disagree with this strongly. I've forgotten how many points Idaho's HG costs (is it 385 points for the unit + cm + razorback?). Let's assume it is for a sec, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

That's only 65 points cheaper than hammernators in a LR, and if they die they've drawn at best less than a third of the firepower needed to kill the LR away from other choice targets.

 

What I meant was most opponents will be moving forwards to you, unless they are Tau/Imperial Guard/Cowards :P . So if they have moved into position also, firstly their firepower will be lessened and secondly they will be closer.

 

Why is the opponent running towards your assault specialist? If getting into combat with the assault specialist is advantageous for you, surely any opponent worth his salt isn't going to help you do it!

[Captain Idaho]

I disagree with this strongly. I've forgotten how many points Idaho's HG costs (is it 385 points for the unit + cm + razorback?). Let's assume it is for a sec, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

That's only 65 points cheaper than hammernators in a LR, and if they die they've drawn at best less than a third of the firepower needed to kill the LR away from other choice targets.

 

Yeah that combo is 385pts. And you are wrong, it isn't only 65pts cheaper than a Terminator Assault squad in a Landraider, it's 115pts as you have to take a HQ choice in your army.

 

100pts is the minimum for a Marine HQ

200pts for Assault Terminators

250pts for Landraider

= 550pts

 

170pts for my prefered Master (bare in mind I can go cheaper if I had to, but that wouldn't be prudent!)

225pts for preferred Honour Guard

40pts for Razorback

= 435pts

 

That is a difference of 115pts. Big difference in 40K. Could be bigger difference if I wanted to, like the Razorback being changed to a Rhino, or Master having just a power weapon etc.

 

Why is the opponent running towards your assault specialist? If getting into combat with the assault specialist is advantageous for you, surely any opponent worth his salt isn't going to help you do it!

 

No, I would expect a player not to move blindly towards me, but they have to move somewhere forwards to get to an objective eh. If not I have an advantage anyway. Remember, a player standing still and not executing a move that would hurt your army, even if they are going to kill your Honour Guard, is potentially a good move.

 

I normally lose my Honour Guard every game, or they end up just a couple of models, but that doesn't mean I lost the game.

 

mowglie: While what you have said regarding those assumptions and facts is good and all, it doesn't take into consideration everything between a Landraider and Rhino transport:

 

What about use of cover? The Rhino is more likely to get a cover save, be out of LOS and hide behind your own units, plus if you delay your approach because you leap frog cover you aren't wasting as many points (not that I think it is neccessarily a waste).

 

What about target saturation? With more points spent on a combination you have left points for more stuff, obviously, but is more acute than you may have considered. Most lists can only fit so much in, and if you have (for example) several Tactical squads backing up the Landraider and contents, plus whatever, the added points investment may mean you have to designate another squad or vehicle for a particular role to fill a gap, especially if you come across an army that has out "meta-ed" you. In the same list, replacing your assault unit and Landraider with something else and a Rhino, you can still have that Dreadnought in support, or extra Landspeeder or 2 to provide firepower support and more AV on the table. You have less of a chance of being caught out if your opponent has a list that might be geared towards a certain build. You have more options to change your game if things aren't going well.

 

And more stuff on the board means more targets for your opponent to choose between, which is generally a good thing.

 

Threat range is dubious. It isn't a flat out range difference, as you are only talking about a single turns movement, making the presumption that any decent opponent can choose to remove a vehicle in a single turn and there is nothing you can do about. Taking down a vehicle, in 5th edition, at range, in cover, is by no means easy. Generally it is costly in resources, meaning your other stuff, increased by the extra points from not taking a Landraider are unmolested and more likely to get on with winning you the game.

 

Likewise, your opponent knows how tough the Landraider is, so will not agonise over firing long range missiles, Lascannons etc at it, targetting your other stuff freely, whilst has a viable target for a suicide attack to try and take down the Landraider, knowing it is a worthy exchange. The threat to a 250pts vehicle dying is a serious consideration, so advancing into close proximity to the enemy is a worrying consideration, yet this is not so to a meagre Rhino. Sure, blow it up, don't shoot at my Dreadnoughts, Landspeeders and Tactical squad Rhinos taking objectives, securing them, moving into advantageous positions and shooting the paint off your models.

 

A Landraider essentially dictates how you must play the game at 1,500pts, which means your opponent can predict what you are intending to do and make moves to counter it.

 

Confusion of roles: A Landraider is a battle tank, yet also a transport. It works best firing from range, yet delivering it's cargo also. You must agonise over what decision is best. This is not the case for a simple Rhino as a transport. Also, think how much firepower is reduced if you move your Landraider closer to an opponent, into that close melta range where it is vulnerable.

 

Then remember that not buying the Landraider get's your army firepower from other avenues, which require separate consideration to eliminate.

[mowglie]

... = 550pts

... = 435pts

 

That is a difference of 115pts.

 

If you play without a librarian, sure. I don't feel even nearly comfortable coming to the table without one. That's a separate topic though. The actual unit is 450pts vs 435 pts - 15 point difference - because the librarian shouldn't be riding with the assault terminators (eggs-in-basket you know :))

 

If 450 points in an AV14 is "eggs-in-basket", 435 points in an AV11 is far moreso.

 

No, I would expect a player not to move blindly towards me, but they have to move somewhere forwards to get to an objective eh.

 

Not before turn 4. Your claim was that "odds are good something will be in charge range turn 2". I claim that "Odds are extremely bad that something you want to charge will be in charge range on turn 2 unless your opponent is a significantly poorer player than you". Odds are better for two reasons with the Land Raider (6" more range, much harder to kill).

 

What about use of cover? The Rhino is more likely to get a cover save

 

I don't agree. By far the most common sources of cover saves for Mech are smoke, and other vehicles (i.e. Rhinos). Land Raiders get both of those just as well.

 

What about target saturation? With more points spent on a combination you have left points for more stuff, obviously, but is more acute than you may have considered. Most lists can only fit so much in, and if you have (for example) several Tactical squads backing up the Landraider and contents, plus whatever, the added points investment may mean you have to designate another squad or vehicle for a particular role to fill a gap, especially if you come across an army that has out "meta-ed" you. In the same list, replacing your assault unit and Landraider with something else and a Rhino, you can still have that Dreadnought in support, or extra Landspeeder or 2 to provide firepower support and more AV on the table. You have less of a chance of being caught out if your opponent has a list that might be geared towards a certain build. You have more options to change your game if things aren't going well.

 

And more stuff on the board means more targets for your opponent to choose between, which is generally a good thing.

 

I fail to see how you buy "several" tactical squads for 15-115 points. Anyway, I already addressed this. You buy a dred for 115 points, and your opponent has 7 lascannons worth of firepower left over to shoot it with because of how much easier the Rhino is to kill. There's no two ways around that. If your opponent has even nearly enough firepower to reliably kill a Land Raider, they have enough firepower to reliably kill any two other vehicles.

 

Threat range is dubious. It isn't a flat out range difference, as you are only talking about a single turns movement, making the presumption that any decent opponent can choose to remove a vehicle in a single turn and there is nothing you can do about. Taking down a vehicle, in 5th edition, at range, in cover, is by no means easy. Generally it is costly in resources, meaning your other stuff, increased by the extra points from not taking a Landraider are unmolested and more likely to get on with winning you the game.

 

While you are correct in the strictest sense, 1) The Land Raider is just as capable (more in fact, due to AV14) of moving in previous turns than the rhino, and 2) I already addressed how much firepower it takes to kill both a Rhino and a Land Raider. Can you buy anything for 115 points which is likely to survive the difference?

 

Likewise, your opponent knows how tough the Landraider is, so will not agonise over firing long range missiles, Lascannons etc at it

 

Actually, I'd be happier to fire S8 missiles or S9 lascannons at 435 points in an AV11 box than at 450 points in an AV14 box. In fact, I'd probably be ignoring the Raider with anything short of getting fast melta within 12".

 

whilst has a viable target for a suicide attack to try and take down the Landraider, knowing it is a worthy exchange.

 

435 points in an AV11 box is a worthy exchange for a suicide attack. Particularly considering that it's more likely to succeed.

 

Sure, blow it up, don't shoot at my Dreadnoughts, Landspeeders and Tactical squad Rhinos taking objectives, securing them, moving into advantageous positions and shooting the paint off your models.

 

I think you mean "Sure, blow it up, shoot my 115 point dreadnaught which was all I could afford to buy with the difference in points. Shoot it with the 7 lascannons worth of firepower that you didn't have to spend shooting a land raider - plus I'm not playing with a Librarian so I don't have a p-hood".

 

A Landraider essentially dictates how you must play the game at 1,500pts, which means your opponent can predict what you are intending to do and make moves to counter it.

 

Here, funnily enough, I agree. However, I fail to see how the unit in the Rhino is any different. As I said previously, I wouldn't be taking a 400pt+ assault hammer in 1,500 points at all.

 

Confusion of roles: A Landraider is a battle tank, yet also a transport. It works best firing from range, yet delivering it's cargo also. You must agonise over what decision is best. This is not the case for a simple Rhino as a transport. Also, think how much firepower is reduced if you move your Landraider closer to an opponent, into that close melta range where it is vulnerable.

 

We had an extremely in-depth discussion of this in which we agreed on the merits of holding back a Godhammer behind your line in order to counter-assault. Remember, even if you're forced to go aggressive, it can still fire one of its sponsons if it moves 12".

 

Then remember that not buying the Landraider get's your army firepower from other avenues, which require separate consideration to eliminate.

 

As discussed, not buying the Land Raider gets your army 15 points of firepower from other avenues. Or 115 points if you're prepared to play without a p-hood.

 

Care to comment on my point on guaranteeing a charge out of a Rhino = risk of opposing assault surrounding the rhino?

 

Maybe we should make two lists - 1,500 points of bland except for the inclusion of HG+RB vs THSS+LR. That'd illustrate how little you get for subbing out the LR for a Rhino and let us cut past all the "what about all the other stuff in my army that you'll have to shoot at!"

 

Again, in conclusion, I think you're vastly overestimating how resilient a Rhino is compared to a Land Raider. With an obvious 435-pt AV11 target, your opponent (if he cares about it getting into assault) can and will destroy it.

[mowglie]

So, I'm crossing threads a bit here, but which of these lists do you think is best:-

 

165 - 5 Sternguard + Razorback

165 - 5 Sternguard + Razorback

230 - 10 Tactical, PF + Rhino

205 - 10 Tactical, Rhino

180 - 2x Typhoons

 

= 945 Points (the blandest list I could think of!)

 

Plus:-

 

1) Rhino Assault Unit

435 - CM, HG, Razorback

115 - MM/HF Dred

= 1495 Points

 

2) TH/SS Assault Unit

100 - Librarian

450 - TH/SS + LR

= 1495 Points

 

3) No Assault Unit

100 - Librarian

345 - 3x Vindicator

090 - 1 more Tyhoon

= 1480 Points

 

Feel free to modify the lists if you like, but I'm sure you get the idea :)

[Giga]

mowglie wins. :unsure:

 

EDIT: Oh and, it's worth to note that certain land raiders, such as redeemers, can more then make up for any "lost" shooting in a single successful shooting phase. It's the sort of firepower one can't easily get in the rest of their army.

[Koremu]

What about use of cover? The Rhino is more likely to get a cover save

 

I don't agree. By far the most common sources of cover saves for Mech are smoke, and other vehicles (i.e. Rhinos). Land Raiders get both of those just as well.

I'll flat call you wrong on this one. The Land Raider gets a 4+ Cover Save. A Rhino or Razorback behind any other Rhino-chassis Tank gets a 3+ Cover Save. It's simply not possible to gain a 3+ Cover Save with a Land Raider - you're just too big.

 

Run a proper 'wedge' of Rhino-chassis tanks and it's very unlikely that the Assault-carrying Rhino will go down. Most opponents won't even waste firepower on a unit with a 3+ Save.

[mowglie]

I'll flat call you wrong on this one. The Land Raider gets a 4+ Cover Save. A Rhino or Razorback behind any other Rhino-chassis Tank gets a 3+ Cover Save. It's simply not possible to gain a 3+ Cover Save with a Land Raider - you're just too big.

 

Ok, that's fair. A Rhino perfectly behind another Rhino gets a 3+ save from a unit that can't sneak a side shot.

 

1) A Land Raider is still significantly harder to kill.

2) If I can see any of the front facing at all, you only get 4+

3) The rhino in front at best will have a 4+ save (smoke) - although this applies to either LR or Rhino.

[Koremu]

I'll flat call you wrong on this one. The Land Raider gets a 4+ Cover Save. A Rhino or Razorback behind any other Rhino-chassis Tank gets a 3+ Cover Save. It's simply not possible to gain a 3+ Cover Save with a Land Raider - you're just too big.

 

Ok, that's fair. A Rhino perfectly behind another Rhino gets a 3+ save from a unit that can't sneak a side shot.

 

1) A Land Raider is still significantly harder to kill.

2) If I can see any of the front facing at all, you only get 4+

3) The rhino in front at best will have a 4+ save (smoke) - although this applies to either LR or Rhino.

The Tank in front of you is a Vindicator. Or it is when I run mech anyway.

[mowglie]

The Tank in front of you is a Vindicator. Or it is when I run mech anyway.

 

Yep. Same. Except the tank behind isn't carrying an assault unit when I run mech <_<

[Cedric]

I'll flat call you wrong on this one. The Land Raider gets a 4+ Cover Save. A Rhino or Razorback behind any other Rhino-chassis Tank gets a 3+ Cover Save. It's simply not possible to gain a 3+ Cover Save with a Land Raider - you're just too big.

 

Ok, that's fair. A Rhino perfectly behind another Rhino gets a 3+ save from a unit that can't sneak a side shot.

 

1) A Land Raider is still significantly harder to kill.

2) If I can see any of the front facing at all, you only get 4+

3) The rhino in front at best will have a 4+ save (smoke) - although this applies to either LR or Rhino.

 

 

Now, hold on!

Vehicles getting a 3+ save? What am I missing?

I know being obscured will result in a 4+ save, from where does this extra + come from?

[mowglie]

Now, hold on!

Vehicles getting a 3+ save? What am I missing?

I know being obscured will result in a 4+ save, from where does this extra + come from?

 

You get a 4+ save if your opponent can see less than 50% of the facing he's firing at. You get a 3+ save if your opponent can't see *any* of the facing he's firing at.

 

So, if you've got a Vindicator and a Rhino, and the Rhino is driving right up the Vindicator's tail so it's front is completely covered by the Vindicator, and I've got a Missle Launcher marine standing in front of the vindicator and about 1" to the left. I can see your rhino. I can't see the facing I'm firing at. You get a 3+ save.

 

	 M <--- Missile Launcher



VVV
VVV <--- Vindicator
VVV
RRR
RRR <--- Rhino
RRR

 

In the same situation, a Land Raider would get a 4+ because you can still see some of the front facing.

[Cedric]

Thank you for clearing that up!

[Koremu]

The Tank in front of you is a Vindicator. Or it is when I run mech anyway.

 

Yep. Same. Except the tank behind isn't carrying an assault unit when I run mech :)

Maybe it's local Metagame. With my local play, people CC tanks a LOT - Eldar Seer Councils, various 'nids, and CC-focused BA and SW. I like to have an Assault unit to counter - or at least revenge - that.

[Captain Idaho]

If you play without a librarian, sure. I don't feel even nearly comfortable coming to the table without one. That's a separate topic though. The actual unit is 450pts vs 435 pts - 15 point difference - because the librarian shouldn't be riding with the assault terminators (eggs-in-basket you know )

 

If 450 points in an AV14 is "eggs-in-basket", 435 points in an AV11 is far moreso.

 

Damn it man, we keep bringing up other points that need a separate topic! Yes the Librarian is useful and yes I am going to say that I feel wholly comfortable not having one in my list even in GTs.

 

But I do believe that you can just as well put the Master somewhere else as inside the Honour Guard. In fact, this alot more useful in a list that doesn't rely on a Landraider as you don't have to find points for an escort for the Librarian (he can't go inside a Rhino with a full Tactical squad after all).

 

And Vanguard can be in a list with a Librarian as the sole HQ list too, let's not forget they are part of the discussion and can be Rhino borne.

 

Besides that, which we could debate all week :) but I don't think you can just say it's 450pts vs 435pts, because the 2 units aren't going up against each other at all. Where we place them on the table doesn't change the fact we payed points for them! Like it or not, the difference is 115pts!

 

Not before turn 4. Your claim was that "odds are good something will be in charge range turn 2". I claim that "Odds are extremely bad that something you want to charge will be in charge range on turn 2 unless your opponent is a significantly poorer player than you". Odds are better for two reasons with the Land Raider (6" more range, much harder to kill).

 

Yeah I wasn't quite clear with my post (rushing it probably, as my son raced to turn off the PC whilst I typed!). This is what I said:

 

So odds are good something will be in charge range turn 2. However, I do concede a clever player would likely be in a transport or what have you, so turn 3 is also pretty likely for a charge. I should have perhaps used less enthusiastic wording, my bad.

 

What I should have said is, the good odds are infact good because they are reasonable, which is good for the Honour Guard, rather than actually being favourable odds. I then went on to say that turn 3 is pretty likely, which I think it is.

 

There is no way in the 7 hells of the Eye of Terror that an opponent can safely get to your objectives if they set out on turn 4! They have to hope you have got in the way for a start, have fast moving stuff that you have not targetted and hope the game doesn't end turn 5! It's a risky player, or an Eldar player, that would do so.

 

Unless fighting a fast moving, biker type force, but then the considerations are different anyway.

 

I don't agree. By far the most common sources of cover saves for Mech are smoke, and other vehicles (i.e. Rhinos). Land Raiders get both of those just as well

 

You have already conceded this anyway :)

 

I fail to see how you buy "several" tactical squads for 15-115 points. Anyway, I already addressed this. You buy a dred for 115 points, and your opponent has 7 lascannons worth of firepower left over to shoot it with because of how much easier the Rhino is to kill. There's no two ways around that. If your opponent has even nearly enough firepower to reliably kill a Land Raider, they have enough firepower to reliably kill any two other vehicles.

 

You can't buy several Tactical squads with those points, but with the 115pts you can put something into the list that would cover one of the roles the Tactical squads would have to fit into, therefore freeing them up to do something else. Remember that Librarian that needed another place to be useful, well it isn't a problem in the Rhino borne assault squad with Master, so I can buy something else with those points in addition to the 115pts.

 

And your example of 7 Lascannons would be even more devastating to a Landraider list, because there are less targets to take those hits. Don't forget, the Honour Guard I use are anti-infantry whereas other elements of my list deal with the hard targets Assault Terminators deal with, so if I lose them and their transport I don't lose my ability to hurt the enemy as much as Thunder Hammer Terminators and a Landraider.

 

This is because the Terminators are the main anti-hard target, tough unit in the list and their loss reduces the lists capacity for dealing with such things. However, the Tactical Marines and Dreadnoughts and over stuff you can buy in a list without a Landraider are still pretty handy in anti-infantry duties, plus are geared to be able to hurt hard targets (Heavy infantry and MCs mostly, being the optimum targets for Assault Terminators).

 

While you are correct in the strictest sense, 1) The Land Raider is just as capable (more in fact, due to AV14) of moving in previous turns than the rhino, and 2) I already addressed how much firepower it takes to kill both a Rhino and a Land Raider. Can you buy anything for 115 points which is likely to survive the difference?

 

It only takes more firepower if the opponent tries to deal with both the same way. Most opponents will see the Landraider and designate a melta attack or whatever at it only, concentrating on the stuff they can hurt. This is good and bad of course, depending on your play style, army composition and what have you, but I would consider all your army being blown away but your Landraider left standing catastrophic to your ability to win the game.

 

Funnily enough I would consider your Landraider and contents destroyed/neutralised (as walking across the table is no good for Assault Terminators) also catastrophic.

 

Actually, I'd be happier to fire S8 missiles or S9 lascannons at 435 points in an AV11 box than at 450 points in an AV14 box. In fact, I'd probably be ignoring the Raider with anything short of getting fast melta within 12".

 

Well yeah, didn't say you should fire them at the Landraider. That is kinda my point. If I see an enemy Landraider I'm going to ignore it and blow up everything else, because I haven't much choice until it is in in melta range. However, if I see a Rhino with assault unit plus several other Rhinos and Dreads etc I have to decide on what to target with how much of my shooting, always conscience that perhaps I should be targetting something else.

 

435 points in an AV11 box is a worthy exchange for a suicide attack. Particularly considering that it's more likely to succeed.

 

Not easy to do if I decide I want to keep it alive, hiding it behind other armoured units etc. And it's situational. If I make it harder for you then you have to put more effort into it, committing more "suicide" units to the attack, which reduces your positive expenditure for reward ratio.

 

Besides, I have more armour on the table, taking down a single unit that won't ruin my game will not bother me if it exchanges your ability to deal with my 2 Dreadnoughts or 3 Landspeeders or Tactical squads in Rhinos.

 

I think you mean "Sure, blow it up, shoot my 115 point dreadnaught which was all I could afford to buy with the difference in points. Shoot it with the 7 lascannons worth of firepower that you didn't have to spend shooting a land raider - plus I'm not playing with a Librarian so I don't have a p-hood".

 

No, I didn't :)

 

We had an extremely in-depth discussion of this in which we agreed on the merits of holding back a Godhammer behind your line in order to counter-assault. Remember, even if you're forced to go aggressive, it can still fire one of its sponsons if it moves 12".

 

Indeed, something I agree on. That is the best way to use a Landraider in my opinion, but then you are holding back your assault unit, so it's swings and round abouts.

 

Care to comment on my point on guaranteeing a charge out of a Rhino = risk of opposing assault surrounding the rhino?

 

Come off it! When has that ever happened in a game against all but the most inexperienced players!

 

If it's not worth paying for the Land Raider, then in my opinion you should not take a single assault hammer in the first place.

 

Debatable. I find having an assault unit a balancing factor in my list, granting me options. Not every opponent will be Imperial Guard gunlines who will be shooting me to pieces and having an assault unit is unimportant. Nor will I have to do the attacking every game. Often you meet in the middle, or part of my army attacks whilst part of the opponents attacks etc. Whatever.

 

Everyone wants to be a unique snowflake, and so everyone is arguing that their own wacky combo is "as good" - usually for "metagame" reasons. I think this is a fallacy that holds people back. Underpowered units don't suddenly get good just because your opponent was expecting good units.

 

It isn't my wacky combo. It works.

 

It's not rock-paper scissors between VV, HG, and Hammernators. If Hammernators in an LR is rock, Power Armoured assault specialists in a Rhino are like another rock, except a bit cheaper and not as good.

 

No you misunderstand the rock-paper-scissors anology. It was meant that the game against other armies and Codex books becomes rock-paper-scissors because you have only one way of playing thanks to having such a points investment in a single combination and if it is removed you are at a disadvantage.

 

165 - 5 Sternguard + Razorback

165 - 5 Sternguard + Razorback

230 - 10 Tactical, PF + Rhino

205 - 10 Tactical, Rhino

180 - 2x Typhoons

 

= 945 Points (the blandest list I could think of!)

 

Now, that list you have produced is best served with a Landraider, so that ain't fair!

 

If you were to swap things around, using the principles I mentioned earlier in this post, it changes things, which to me shows that a Landraider is great and all, but not essential:

 

230 - 10 Tactical, PF + Rhino

205 - 10 Tactical, Rhino

180 - 2x Typhoons

 

with:

 

1) Rhino Assault Unit

435 - CM, HG, Razorback

 

for a total of 1,050pts

 

Now I would add this:

 

115pts - Dreadnought - Plasma Cannon

135pts - Dreadnought - Twin Linked Lascannon

75pts - Scouts

70pts - Landspeeder - MM & HF

 

And still leaving 55pts for upgrades. This is my preference, but it has an extra scoring unit which means my Tacticals can do other things, doesn't require another unit just to have a place for the Librarian, has greater ranged firepower and if I lose my assault unit I still have Dreadnoughts and Tacticals for assault capacity. I can change things like the weapons on Dreadnoughts, or lone Landspeeder, or take another Dreadnought etc (3 Elites choices is no problem here!).

 

You can't get that combination with a Landraider + Assault Terminators + Librarian. You need to drop something to include supprt for the Librarian, unless you put it in the Landraider, which you didn't like the idea of earlier. You also need to drop something due to the added expence of the Landraider. Plus if you want expensive Sternguard you are throwing more points out there.

 

It's a matter of taste of course, as we build our lists to do different things but achieve separate results (as I like Landraiders, but lately have gone off them as good players know how to neutralise them).

 

EDIT: Oh and, it's worth to note that certain land raiders, such as redeemers, can more then make up for any "lost" shooting in a single successful shooting phase. It's the sort of firepower one can't easily get in the rest of their army.

 

Yeah, but they are so close ranged based, you are sacrificing the ability to shoot at range at opponents.

 

Run a proper 'wedge' of Rhino-chassis tanks and it's very unlikely that the Assault-carrying Rhino will go down. Most opponents won't even waste firepower on a unit with a 3+ Save.

 

Exactly, I rarely find a player who is bad enough to ignore all my other stuff in trying to eliminate an assault unit in a hard to kill Rhino.

 

Lastly, we should not forget that not every player lacks for the ability to kill Landraiders at range. All the well laid out superiority of a Landraider is gone when 1st turn the Imperial Guard player drops a Medusa Siege shell on it, or an Orbital Bombardment hits, or a Eldar Bright/Dark Lance strike, or a Drop Pod suicide unit does kill it, or Tyranid Tyrannofex breaks it apart, or a Tau player puts 2 Hammerheads and a Broadside team, backed up with marker lights, onto the table...

[Warprat]

That makes no sense.

 

Weight of fire doesnt care one iota if you have a 3++ or a 5++, as long as your 2+ is the same.

It makes perfect sense.

 

When the only way to reliably kill something is with weight of fire, you need to focus a lot more resources to deal with it ie. you need more guns shooting at the said terminators simply because the guns that would've slaughtered 5++ termies are not as effective against 3++ ones. You can kill 5++ dudes with pretty much any gun handy. 3++ dudes, on the other hand, are a lot more resilient against everything short of weight of fire.

 

In addition, once you realize you need weight of fire to take a certain unit down, you start running into logistical problems. Getting 20-30 dudes into a position to rapid fire a single unit can be pretty hard due to cramped conditions on the table; impassable terrain, other units blocking the way, range and line of sight issues, limited mobility (your transports might be unable to move, you may have crappy difficult terrain rolls, etc.).

 

Anyway, an example: let's say you got two mechanized tactical squads and a 4 plasmagun command squad, and there's a unit of 5 termies, out of cover, you want to kill.

 

Against 5++ termies, the 4 plasmaguns rapid-firing get you 5-6 hits, and that translates into 5-6 wounds. After 5++ saves, that means ~4 dead termies. The tactical squad rapid firing (let's say they got only bolters, for simplicity's sake) will get 20 shots, meaning 14-15 hits and 7-8 wounds, meaning that statistically they kill 1-2 termies.

 

Against th/ss termies, the 4 plasmaguns will only kill 1-2 termies. If the tac squad then rapid fires it, you kill another 1-2 termies, meaning the termie unit is still there, still a big thread. Hence, you need the SECOND tac squad to come in and rapid fire to make sure those termies die. This is when you run into logistical problems, as you need to plan ahead to do this, and fitting 25 marines into a 12" range of a unit of 5 terminators can be a massive problem if your opponent knows what he's doing.

 

In reality it's even harder, because there are often 6-8 th/ss termies going around, or they might have a hard IC like lysander keeping them company, requiring you to devote even more resources to take them out and then logistical problems become even greater as fitting that much dakka in a 12" bubble around the said unit becomes quite hard in larger games (1750+).

 

So, in effect, th/ss termies require a lot more shooting to take down simply because you can't just throw anything at them and get results. You need to plan in advance and be ready to devote a huge part of your army to kill them (or pray to dice gods your opponent fails lotsa 3++ saves), while with 5++ termies you can be like "oh, two terminators left, let's kill them with my two mm attack bikes who are 20" away".

 

 

I almost always run my Tactical Termies in one big squad. While the above points are good. They have failed to address some of the TT's strenghts. Unless that Command squad podded in, I would have probably already shot up the Rhino carrying them with my cyclones, slowing them down enough to disrupt the Tactical squad and Command squad coordination. I generally laugh it up (inside my head) when people target my only 5++ termies, with meltas and whatnot. 2/3 chance to hit, damage on a 2+, save 1/3 of the time... it hurts my opponent plenty. Plasma does worry me more, especially Sternguard squads w/combi-plasma, but those are rare. Most people take melta over plasma for the anti-vehicle.

 

Everyone knows that Storm Shield Termies are hard to kill. But since most people only run a small squad, once they are down to a couple of guys, it's very easy to weight of fire them. My TT's are twice as hard to kill by weight of fire. They are not equal to CC termies, but my guys are generally firing to full effect every turn. My Tacticals, might get one or two good turns of fire.

 

So, while they do cost more, I get much more out of them. And with ten guys, they can last for quite a while, or take a few power weapon hits, only to bash back with fists. They are the ultimate swiss army knife. With the fire power of a Devestator squad and a rapid firing Tactical squad every turn. With the storm bolters they can walk backwards against against a walking foe, and get in a couple good turns of softening up.

 

Warprat ;)

[mowglie]

Lastly, we should not forget that not every player lacks for the ability to kill Landraiders at range.

 

I think you're arguing in circles.

 

In any situation where the Land Raider is going to die, the Rhino is going to die more easily (3.5x more easily in the situation I called out. More in some situations, less in others). If your opponent has the ability to kill a land raider at range, your opponent has the ability to kill a rhino at range with more than enough firepower left over to kill whatever you bought for the 115 points of change.

 

Do you dispute that? If so, how? If not, then your argument is self-defeating.

 

Assuming your opponent is capable of killing a land raider at range (which you seem to be), the only reason your Rhino might survive is because your opponent has prioritised something else instead - either because he has correctly identified something else as a higher priority target, or because he has made an error.

 

The Land Raider implies a possibility of forcing your opponent to ignore it because he lacks the resources to reliably deal with it. Realistically the Rhino does not.

[Koremu]

In any situation where the Land Raider is going to die, the Rhino is going to die more easily (3.5x more easily in the situation I called out. More in some situations, less in others). If your opponent has the ability to kill a land raider at range, your opponent has the ability to kill a rhino at range with more than enough firepower left over to kill whatever you bought for the 115 points of change.

 

Do you dispute that? If so, how? If not, then your argument is self-defeating.

I dispute the logic behind your argument. Taking down three separate targets is not the same as taking down one Raider. For a start you need three separate firing units, which in KP-optimised lists is something of an issue.

[mowglie]

I dispute the logic behind your argument. Taking down three separate targets is not the same as taking down one Raider. For a start you need three separate firing units, which in KP-optimised lists is something of an issue.

 

If squadrons of 3x MM/MM speeders got popular without me noticing, sure, otherwise my point remains. I can't think of any other single units with a reliable chance of killing a smoked or obscured LR.

[Captain Idaho]

Lastly, we should not forget that not every player lacks for the ability to kill Landraiders at range.

 

I think you're arguing in circles.

 

Not really, just responding to posts direct at me.

 

In any situation where the Land Raider is going to die, the Rhino is going to die more easily (3.5x more easily in the situation I called out. More in some situations, less in others). If your opponent has the ability to kill a land raider at range, your opponent has the ability to kill a rhino at range with more than enough firepower left over to kill whatever you bought for the 115 points of change.

 

Do you dispute that? If so, how? If not, then your argument is self-defeating.

 

I don't dispute the toughness of a Landraider at all. Until recently I always used one and enjoyed it. However, losing it makes a large impact to my game and it is too easy to lose in some games.

 

What I am saying is a Rhino transport is not as weak and vulnerable as you seem to believe. It's the reason Mech army lists are so strong right now. As a transport for an assault unit, it only needs to survive a couple turns and it is easy enough to keep alive for a few turns. Those were the points I was making.

 

And losing that Rhino won't ruin your game.

[Giga]

@ Captain Idaho

 

You're throwing waaaaaaay too much theoryhammer, man. Mowglie gave you all the good arguments, and the only valid argument you gave him is the capability of the rhino to, in some situations, claim a 3+ cover save by driving behind a vindicator (and even that isn't too reliable, as any semi-mobile opponent can move to get better line of sight and chances are he's gonna see at least a tiny part of your front hull.

 

Offering multiple targets isn't necessarily better for overall survivability then having one hard target. A single hard target can be surrounded and kept safe, as the opponent needs to maneuver to get his melta into melta range of a single LR. A bunch of light targets spread out (and they WILL be spread out - certainly more then a single supported LR) and are easier to take down by long-range shooting and single units.

 

In an example; fast multimeltas need to get within 12" of a LR to take it down. Their movement can be blocked and they can be shot from far away. Pretty much every other weapon short of massed/lucky lascannon fire can barely scratch a LR. This means the enemy has to rely on suicide units in hopes that LR wouldn't pass it's cover saves or that they wouldn't be shot down as they try to close in.

 

A rhino can be reliably taken down by these same multimeltas from 24" away. It can also be murdered by just about any anti-tank shooting. Even if does have it's 3+ cover save, it's still far easier to kill at range. There's a lot less need for the enemy to maneuver, get into position, get into melta range, get clear lines of sight etc. with a rhino, then there is with a land raider. If you know how to do this, you can get a huge advantage.

 

Also, I don't know why your battleplan would be too unbalanced by a LR being destroyed. My LR dies in most battles, and I still win most of the time. It's fine for as long as the LR has done it's job (absorbed lots of shooting and delivered the termies into assault *and* possibly killed something with its guns, but that last is situational). In fact, opponents wasting shooting on my LR after it has delivered the terminators (usually turn 2 or 3) is always a good thing.

 

 

 

 

@ warprat

 

10 tactical termies with two cyclone missile launchers cost 460 pts. 5 th/ss termies with a LR with extra armor and multimelta cost 475 pts. For 15 points more you get two much harder units with superior shooting and better assault capability. Tactical termies die to anything - weight of fire, AP1, AP2, assault from power weapons, you name it.

 

But anyway, if it works for you, then that's great for you.

[Aidoneus]

I'm a bit late to the party. Have we assumed that we're only using 1 assault squad in our entire army? Also, are we talking strictly vanilla marines.

 

I ask because, as a Chaos player, I feel very uncomfortable with the first assumption. A single assault squad is not nearly enough at 1500+ pts. It will either get shot to pieces by massed firepower or get dogpiled by multiple enemy units. Maybe against another vanilla marine player with a single assault unit it'd be okay, but against Chaos or Eldar or Tau or 'Nids or Ork or... well, most of the races would give you problems one way or the other. Multiple assault units let you make coordinated attacks, where the enemy has to deal with multiple units getting in his face, each of which is capable of dealing with virtually any of his units one-on-one.

 

Again, I realize you might be talking Vanilla marine, but indulge me for a second. My 1750pt tournament list includes 2 separate units of Berzerkers and a Khorne Daemon Prince as dedicated assault, while my 2 units of CSM, 1 unit of termies, and 3 units of oblits are all capable of lending a hand. The 3 scary assault units make the enemy divide their fire, or else focus on killing 1 unit and letting 2 hit their lines. Most people don't have enough firepower to stop all three threats from hitting their lines, and so I'm all but guaranteed to get a great assault unit where it needs to be. Contrast that with a single Land Raider carrying assault terminators. All the enemy has to do is run one 70pt Land speeder up and roll halfway decently, and that's 250pts gone outright, and another 200 left stranded, with nothing but a Land Speeder to charge within the next 2 turns, minimum.

 

I say all this to highlight an important fact: while almost any army can accommodate a single assault unit in a single land raider, once you start talking multiple such combinations you rapidly get to the point where the army has to be built around those raiders, and will feature little else. On the other hand, fitting in 2 assault units in Rhinos isn't all that difficult. My two Berzerker squads, including Rhinos, cost me 466pts: about the same as that unit of assault termies in their land raider. So not only are two tanks in some ways harder to kill, but much more importantly, they are transporting 2 assault squads, which are much better offensively. And your battle plan is impaired much less for losing just one.