Is a Landraider really neccessary for assault units

[mowglie]

Instead of comparing disparate lists, you should try to compare 1 list, changing only the assault unit.

 

900 points core

 

+ 600 points including TH/SS and LR

+ 600 points including CM/HG

+ 600 points including neither

 

That's what I was trying to do earlier.

[Koremu]

@Giga, @Captain Idaho; Can you both please properly attribute your quotes so the auto-tagging function can properly trackback to the post you are quoting? It's very frustrating not to be able to identify the poster and post you are replying to - context is important. Thanks.

 

Yep and having a Landraider is exasperating the need for the super assault unit to achieve alot due to the increased costs involved.

I think you mean Exacerbating :huh:

 

 

I much prefer to run a more balanced list that does not crumble when one part dies unexpectedly.

That's the whole point. LR lists don't crumble if the LR dies. They only do when they're played by poor players.

I've yet to see a situation where losing 1/3rd of your army (effectively, as footslogging assault troops are neutralised) doesn't seriously impact the ability of the list to fight. Especially if it happens on turn 1.

 

 

Instead of comparing disparate lists, you should try to compare 1 list, changing only the assault unit.

 

900 points core

 

+ 600 points including TH/SS and LR

+ 600 points including CM/HG

+ 600 points including neither

 

That's what I was trying to do earlier.

Tried that back on page 2.

[rat of vengence]

@Giga, @Captain Idaho; Can you both please properly attribute your quotes so the auto-tagging function can properly trackback to the post you are quoting? It's very frustrating not to be able to identify the poster and post you are replying to - context is important. Thanks.

At least that will stop giga making them up ;)

 

I much prefer to run a more balanced list that does not crumble when one part dies unexpectedly.

That's the whole point. LR lists don't crumble if the LR dies. They only do when they're played by poor players.

I've yet to see a situation where losing 1/3rd of your army (effectively, as footslogging assault troops are neutralised) doesn't seriously impact the ability of the list to fight. Especially if it happens on turn 1.

My point exactly. I will happily pit my army against 2/3rds of another, and deal with the other 1/3rd when it eventually walks up.

 

Is a LR likely to die first turn? Not really, but it can be done without too much trouble. Immobilised is good enough to take its expensive cargo out of the game for a few turns, and a glancing hit can do that easy enough.

 

RoV

[mowglie]

I've yet to see a situation where losing 1/3rd of your army (effectively, as footslogging assault troops are neutralised) doesn't seriously impact the ability of the list to fight. Especially if it happens on turn 1.

 

Idaho's 435pt CM/HG/RB is also basically 1/3rd of your army, yes? (well, 29% vs 30%)

 

You agree that Idaho's razorback is easier to kill? You agree that losing it is pretty much just as bad?

 

I certainly agree that losing your Captain + Command Squad isn't as bad (assuming you haven't spent 230+ points on your command squad!). If you're taking a single inexpensive assault unit in your army then the debate gets very different.

[Giga]

Whether you guys like the LR or not, doesn't matter for this thread. What mowglie says is true. A rhino/razorback transport is much more likely to result in the expensive assault unit being taken out of the game, and much earlier on. Also, the points saved by taking an assault unit with a rhino/razor rather then a LR aren't large enough to make up for the loss of a reliable transport.

At least that will stop giga making them up

Lol. Like I said. Obvious troll is obvious.

 

 

 

 

 

/thread

[Koremu]

I certainly agree that losing your Captain + Command Squad isn't as bad (assuming you haven't spent 230+ points on your command squad!). If you're taking a single inexpensive assault unit in your army then the debate gets very different.

Fist, Champion, Shield. 170 points.

 

Inexpensive is the keyword of my army. Along with multiple-redundancy, strength in depth and mutual support, it's one of my overriding principles of combat.

 

And I've been trying to point out the difference between a primary Assault unit which your plan revolves around on the one hand and a support assault unit which complements the main plan on the other since the second post in the thread;

 

 

The short answer is that if your battle plan revolves around the Assault unit in question getting into combat with a choice target, then the Land Raider is essential.

 

If your battle plan revolves around other things, and your Assault unit is only there in support of those other things, then a regular Transport may be OK.

 

See?

[mowglie]

See?

 

So you agree that Idaho's 435pt razorback is easier to kill and that losing it is pretty much just as bad?

 

*trying to get some agreement*

[Giga]

@ Koremu

 

I agree that a relatively inexpensive assault unit (such as your command squad+captain) doesn't need a land raider transport.

 

However, I wouldn't really call your command squad a specialized assault unit. That squad is pretty much helpless against MCs, walkers, and real assault specialists. IMHO it can't really be compared to the likes of assault terminators, honor guard, kitted out command squads, etc.

[rat of vengence]

At least that will stop giga making them up

Lol. Like I said. Obvious troll is obvious.

Who is the troll, the one who invents what people said, or the one who calls him out on it ;)

 

Honesty. Try it sometime ;)

 

However, I wouldn't really call your command squad a specialized assault unit. That squad is pretty much helpless against MCs, walkers, and real assault specialists. IMHO it can't really be compared to the likes of assault terminators, honor guard, kitted out command squads, etc.

I would refer you to this bit of Koremu's post which you obviously didn't read...

And I've been trying to point out the difference between a primary Assault unit which your plan revolves around on the one hand and a support assault unit which complements the main plan on the other since the second post in the thread;

 

:)

 

RoV

[Koremu]

Actually, that Command Squad has a good record at removing Carnifex. The Carnifex has the problem that it has to decide if it's going to divide its attacks between the Command Squad and the Captain, or if it's going to try and overwhelm one or the other. If it tries to divide and conquer, it runs a high risk of inflicting no significant damage while the Relic Blade and Power Fist chew it up and spit it out.

 

It's even more fun if you include Khan. STR5 Power Weapons are hilarious vs. a 'fex.

[mowglie]

Can't get a straight answer out of anyone... :'(

[Captain Idaho]

@Giga, @Captain Idaho; Can you both please properly attribute your quotes so the auto-tagging function can properly trackback to the post you are quoting? It's very frustrating not to be able to identify the poster and post you are replying to - context is important. Thanks.

 

It's difficult because I'm no good at code and can't get the quote to work!

 

See?

 

So you agree that Idaho's 435pt razorback is easier to kill and that losing it is pretty much just as bad?

 

*trying to get some agreement*

 

Here is a straight answer at least mate:

 

I agree that a Razorback is easier to kill than a Landraider. Losing the Razorback 1st turn is almost as bad (baring in my the 115pts makes it slightly less severe).

 

However (and you knew there would be one!), that in itself doesn't make the Razorback easy to kill, or even likely to die turn 1 or 2.

 

It also doesn't take into account alpha strikes, suicide units and those Rail guns and other ranged weaponary (Vindicators anyone?) will be focussed upon the Landraider. Remember the 3+ cover save that Rhino/Razorback has? Well only a poor or desparate (or one with no options) player will direct his 1st turn firepower against a vehicle with a 3+ cover save.

 

And let's not forget that taking down a Rhino doesn't mean you can kill the contents that turn either. Even if you take down the Rhino after only a single turns movement, you are going to need at least another turn's shooting to kill the contents. That is still 2 turns firepower.

 

Think of it this way, in my example it took 2 turns firepower to kill the assault unit and transport, which is alot for a mere Rhino. Realistically, things aren't so simple; you can't just point your weapons and kill something without fail!

 

Idaho's 435pt CM/HG/RB is also basically 1/3rd of your army, yes? (well, 29% vs 30%)

 

40K is not so simple! Army lists are made to have some expensive elements and some cheaper elements, when taken together result in a balanced selection and size.

 

If the CM/HG/RB is a 3rd of the army, then logically then I will only have another 2 light transports, 2 more squads of infantry and enough for 2 more characters, which equates to say a Dreadnought and Tyhpoon Landspeeder Squadron. But my army isn't that sized, it also has another Dreadnought, an extra Landspeeder and an extra scoring unit, plus either a Dreadnought is Venerable or I have another Landspeeder!

 

People shouldn't try view 40K in this "cookie cutter" manner, because it's not just a mathematical puzzle to fit as much in as possible. It's about selecting the right tools to get the job done in the way you want to do it. That may mean taking a cheap firepower option backing up a more expensive infantry option.

 

***Edit*** Forgot to say yeah I have. I haven't been to a GT that didn't have players there who did the same sort of mixes between having an expensive unit and cheaper supporting ones. Having an assault unit in a Rhino equivilent is not debilitating, especially when opponents are doing the same.

 

I think you mean Exacerbating

 

No no no, I mean exasperating:

 

2. Worsen

 

to make an unpleasant condition or feeling worse

 

:)

 

@ Everyone: I think it is important to consider that I have the following opinion, to clarfiy what I am standing for here:

 

• Yes, a Landraider is a seriously tough vehicle! We all know that, but then so do our opponents. Taking a Landraider will not prevent an opponent firing his Rifleman Dreadnoughts, Hydra Flak tanks, Dual Scatter Laser Warwalkers, Typhoons, Vendetta gunships, Long Fang Missile Launchers etc at the rest of your army, as those weapons cannot hurt the Landraider (at least easily) and therefore it is easy to see you have to direc such firepower else where. Additionally, the threat of a Landraider is such that it represents a serious target no matter whether it has disgorged it's cargo or not, whilst it's cost makes suicide units worthwhile.
  
• A Rhino or equivilent has inferior armour to a Landraider it's true, but is easier to hide and is more expendable. Cover saves are easier to get and there is no worry about moving and sacrficing firepower. In 5th edition 40K Mech is king, so a Rhino will not just easily die because it is softer than a Landraider.
  
• A Rhino is cheaper than a Landraider. In our comparisons we have a definite army list difference of 115pts. It becomes more if I put the Chapter Master elsewhere (as a direct comparison to the Librarian going elsewhere). That makes the difference 185pts.
  

 

That's off the top of my. I'm hungry and have to make some dinner right now!

 

***Edit*** Forgot to say yeah I have to disagree that it is impossible to have a genuine balanced list in 1,500pts for Codex Space Marines. My list is balanced and the risk to the Honour Guard, such that it is, has to be thought of in perspective. 1,500pts might seem limiting, but have you seen another army at 1,500pts that doesn't suffer the same?

[Giga]

Actually, that Command Squad has a good record at removing Carnifex. The Carnifex has the problem that it has to decide if it's going to divide its attacks between the Command Squad and the Captain, or if it's going to try and overwhelm one or the other. If it tries to divide and conquer, it runs a high risk of inflicting no significant damage while the Relic Blade and Power Fist chew it up and spit it out.

I don't think that's a tuff choice - I'd always kill the captain, as all it takes is a single unsaved wound and the captain dies to instant death.

 

That being said, I don't think carnifexes are really a good representative of 5th edition MCs. A trygon/trygon prime, a flying warptime daemon prince, swarmlord, bloodthirster, mephiston (not really an MC, but he might as well be), etc. would all tear your command squad to pieces even if you got a charge off against them (which is easy for the MC-owner to avoid, if the MC in question has wings/can fly).

 

BTW, I'm not bashing on your command squad or anything. I just think it shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence with the likes of assault terminators, honor guard, etc. as it's clearly intended to hunt units that shouldn't be in assault to begin with. Dedicated assault specialists are designed to be capable of dishing it out with the best of them.

[Koremu]

Actually, that Command Squad has a good record at removing Carnifex. The Carnifex has the problem that it has to decide if it's going to divide its attacks between the Command Squad and the Captain, or if it's going to try and overwhelm one or the other. If it tries to divide and conquer, it runs a high risk of inflicting no significant damage while the Relic Blade and Power Fist chew it up and spit it out.

I don't think that's a tuff choice - I'd always kill the captain, as all it takes is a single unsaved wound and the captain dies to instant death.

 

That being said, I don't think carnifexes are really a good representative of 5th edition MCs. A trygon/trygon prime, a flying warptime daemon prince, swarmlord, bloodthirster, mephiston (not really an MC, but he might as well be), etc. would all tear your command squad to pieces even if you got a charge off against them (which is easy for the MC-owner to avoid, if the MC in question has wings/can fly).

 

BTW, I'm not bashing on your command squad or anything. I just think it shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence with the likes of assault terminators, honor guard, etc. as it's clearly intended to hunt units that shouldn't be in assault to begin with. Dedicated assault specialists are designed to be capable of dishing it out with the best of them.

Against all MCs, the best course of action is to soften it up first with firepower and finish the job with an Assault.

 

People seem to have this focus on "unit X can kill target Y in one round of combat", and while it's true, I find it's more efficient to use supporting fire and a lighter assault unit to finish the job.

 

Also, all of those MCs are more expensive than the Command Squad, and bordering on the price of them and the Captain.

 

You don't really see multiples of 240 point monsters. Or if you do, that's all there is to the enemy army. Like Land Raider Lists.

 

 

 

 

P.S. You're on the money on the best shot the 'fex has, but it's still more likely to die than the Captain is.

[mowglie]

A Rhino is cheaper than a Landraider. In our comparisons we have a definite army list difference of 115pts. It becomes more if I put the Chapter Master elsewhere (as a direct comparison to the Librarian going elsewhere). That makes the difference 185pts.

 

Uh, I think you got that wrong. I thought we sorted this out. Probably just a typo though, right?

 

If you're talking about killing the tank and making everything inside footslog, the LR is 450 points and the CM/HG/RB is 435 points, a difference of 15 points.

 

If instead you put the CM somewhere else, the difference is as you say 185 points.

 

Either way, you have 115 points to spend elsewhere in your army, however you're "currently" short 2 twin-linked lascannons and a p-hood. You've got to make up for that and the decreased resilience out of those 115 points. That's assuming your CM/HG are approximately as powerful in assault as 5 Assault Terminators. (We already did that one, didn't we? We'll just make that assumption for the sake of this thread.)

 

You don't get to build a 1570 point list just because your HQ isn't riding with his HG! :(

 

Now, we're getting somewhere I think.

 

The trouble so far is that we're comparing a 395-pt assault unit to a 200-pt one. we're doing this because (ofc) you can't put assault terminators in a Rhino.

 

I believe that assault terminators (of either variety) are hugely underpriced in C:SM. I can't think of a 200-pt power-armoured assault unit that comes even close to the destructive capability of the Hammernators.

 

If you could (or if you believe you can!) then I'm less intolerant of the Rhino. Like Koremu, I try to design lists with no single-point of failure. A 435-pt assault unit at 1500 is almost as much of a single point of failure as a 450 point one - and it's significantly more likely to fail. The exact argument you apply to the 450 point raider applies doubly to the 435 point razorback.

 

If you play a ~130 point command squad in a Razorback, that's only 170 points - cheaper than even a cheap tactical squad - so the value of singling them out is less (and the value of putting them in a Raider is questionable).

 

If you put the captain in there too, though, that's now 315 points. Obviously that's not as bad as 435 or 450, but it's still getting towards bad.

 

I'm not going to try to tell you where the exact tipping point is. All I'll say is that if your opponent can single out and cripple a large part of your army easily, that's not good.

 

So, in conclusion:- My opinion hasn't changed. If your assault unit is expensive and a large enough part of your army that singling it out and destroying it will seriously damage your gameplan, you should either take a LR, or you shouldn't take it in the first place.

 

If you have a cheap assault unit, or even better multiple cheap units then obviously they don't need a raider.

 

As food for thought: if you could put hammernators in a Rhino, would you?

[Giga]

Against all MCs, the best course of action is to soften it up first with firepower and finish the job with an Assault.

 

People seem to have this focus on "unit X can kill target Y in one round of combat", and while it's true, I find it's more efficient to use supporting fire and a lighter assault unit to finish the job.

Unless I'm tailoring to kill a MC-heavy list, there's no way I'm gonna have enough shooting to take them all out before they reach me. Also, softening MCs up is usually a bad idea - a trygon with 1 wound is just as deadly as a trygon with 6 wounds. When shooting MCs, I always make sure I finish the job. Some MCs inevitably arrive close to my lines unscathed, which is fine, because at this point the th/ss termies come out of their LR to liberally apply some banhammer. B)

 

Always worked like a charm for me. The LR is also great help with shooting MCs before they get close.

Also, all of those MCs are more expensive than the Command Squad, and bordering on the price of them and the Captain.

No.

 

Warptime winged nurgle daemon prince - 175

 

Summoned Greater Daemon - 100

 

Bloodthirster - 250

 

Swarmlord - 280

 

Carnifex with 4 scything talons - 160

 

Trygon - 200

 

Hive Tyrant - 170

 

Mephiston - 250

 

Captain with relic blade + your command squad = 300 (more with transport)

You don't really see multiples of 240 point monsters. Or if you do, that's all there is to the enemy army. Like Land Raider Lists.

What sort of nids you played against? I fought (and beat) 5th ed tyranid lists with 2 trygon primes, 2 tyrants, a tervigon, + a bunch of zoanthropes, doom of malantai, and lotsa gaunts and stealers. Many dudes at my club often run lists of 5-6 T6 MCs backed by a ton of small dudes, hive guard, etc. With lots of cover saves and the like, taking that many T6 wounds through shooting is extremely hard. Also, Chaos Marines can easily throw 3 MCs into your face turn 2 (fly + run daemon princes + the summoned greater daemon can assault on the turn it deep strikes).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ mowglie

I believe that assault terminators (of either variety) are hugely underpriced in C:SM. I can't think of a 200-pt power-armoured assault unit that comes even close to the destructive capability of the Hammernators.

I disagree. The reason C:SM has cheapest assault terminators, while the BA have them a little more expensive, and the SW get them uber-expensive, is because C:SM NEEDS to have access to cheap and highly effective assault specialist because C:SM lacks assault power on the whole. BA and SW get bashy things all over their dexes, while the vanilla assault choices are either crap (assault marines), overpriced (honor guard, vanguard, and kitted out close-combat command squads), or incapable of filling the assault niche (tactical terminators).

 

Hence, the assault power in the vanilla dex is localized into a single very-cost-effective hammer unit that still needs a land raider to be worth taking. If this single unit was costed a lot more, vanilla lists would soon devolve into a 100% shooting lists more reminiscent of imperial guard then MEQ, and that'd suck.

[Koremu]

Against all MCs, the best course of action is to soften it up first with firepower and finish the job with an Assault.

 

People seem to have this focus on "unit X can kill target Y in one round of combat", and while it's true, I find it's more efficient to use supporting fire and a lighter assault unit to finish the job.

Unless I'm tailoring to kill a MC-heavy list, there's no way I'm gonna have enough shooting to take them all out before they reach me. Also, softening MCs up is usually a bad idea - a trygon with 1 wound is just as deadly as a trygon with 6 wounds. When shooting MCs, I always make sure I finish the job. Some MCs inevitably arrive close to my lines unscathed, which is fine, because at this point the th/ss termies come out of their LR to liberally apply some banhammer. ;)

 

Always worked like a charm for me. The LR is also great help with shooting MCs before they get close.

Meh. I tend to chip MCs down to 1 or 2 wounds and then let them come on. The only really threatening 'nid MC when it has low wounds is the Carnifex, and that's mostly because it has the ability to strike at Init4, even when Assaulting into Cover.

 

It's just not worth throwing extreme levels of firepower into taking off the last random wound when you can let a Squad of Brother-Marines handle it. Very few MCs average a decent number of kills in a single turn against Tactical Marines. The trouble with MC heavy lists is that they rely on their MCs killing big expensive targets to win. If you don't have any big expensive targets, they tend to fail hard.

 

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen a 'fex gloriously charge headlong into my lines and die horribly. People just don't expect Tactical Marines to be able to kill a 'fex, and they tend to be really pissed when it inevitably happens.

 

Always worked like a charm for me.

[Giga]

Also, I think you play some weird tyranid players if they let you wound their MCs around and not draw your shooting to things like zoanthropes and hive guard.

 

A carnifex should tear through a tactical squad any day. What, 5 attacks on charge, rerolls to hit. Will easily kill 4-5 dudes in the first assault phase. The powerfist gets 2 attacks, hitting on 4+ (your opponents use paroxysm, don't they?) and the 9 standard attacks are probably not going to harm a carnifex. Second assault phase possibly sees 3-4 more dudes dead. I really can't see how carnifexes get killed by tactical squads in assault unless it's down to 1 wound when it charges (at which point you should just shoot it to death rather then lose 4-5 marines).

 

Other MCs are also extremely dangerous. Trygon gets 7 attacks on charge, WS5 with rerolls to hit, wounding on 2+, and the tac squad hits it on 5+ due to paroxysm. Hive Tyrant may not be that dangerous, but they often have preferred enemy, they can't be singled out in close combat if they have a unit of tyrant guard, and they still have paroxysm with WS8. I won't even start on swarmlord, and his 4++ save in close combat.

 

Oh and, many of them can get furious charge buffs from other units.

 

Also, standing out of transports, even in cover, is death to marines if your opponent has brought a couple zoanthropes or the doom of malan'tai.

 

 

 

 

BTW, would you care to give me a list or two you like to use? We've been talking on this forum for a long time, so I'm interested to see what you usually run. ;)

[Koremu]

BTW, would you care to give me a list or two you like to use? We've been talking on this forum for a long time, so I'm interested to see what you usually run. :)

Usually it's 2 Tactical Squads in Rhinos (sometimes cut down to have one 5 man Tactical Squad in a Razorback), a Vindicator (sometimes a pair), a Predator, a scattering of Fast Attack choices (most often Land Speeders) and either a Captain and Command Squad in Razorback, or a Librarian with some shooting backup (Sternguard and a Transport, or Terminators and TDA for the Librarian).

 

I follow a policy of having everything I deploy arriving by some method of Transportation (teleportation counts).

[Captain Idaho]

Would it be worth creating a thread where we add our army lists onto it and then discuss the use of each one and whatever we may struggle with and find easy?

 

I think the discussion has gone so far about I think possibly I failed to explain my point adequately.

 

To clear things up once and for all, I will break down exactly what I am saying, the reason I believe a Landraider is an expensive option as a transport and a Rhino is an adequate transport option for an Assault unit

 

On cost differences between a Landraider borne assault unit and a Rhino borne assault unit:

 

My Chapter Master costs 170pts, but can be as little as 140pts with power weapon only and still be adequate at his job. That puts the HQ cost of taking a CM over a basic Librarian as 40-70pts more expensive. For consistency we will assume the more expensive (which favours your argument by the way).

 

A Landraider is 250pts, whilst a Rhino is 35pts or a Razorback is 40pts, a difference of between 215pts and 210pts. For a transport! Again, assuming a Razorback at 40pts.

 

The Honour Guard in my example cost 225pts but can cost less if I so choose it. Dropping a single model will not reduce offensive capacity by much, though this does reduce survivability more pertinently. Taking it at 225pts however, compared to the Terminators, is a difference of 25pts.

 

So if we consider things from my perspective I have:

 

-70pts

+210pts

-25pts

= 115pts difference to be spent on the rest of my army, which we already know about.

 

Hold On!

 

But again, 40K isn’t so simple! The HQ choice needs an escort to be viable, otherwise being cheaper makes no difference at all because it is wasted anyway. Putting the CM somewhere else will not on the whole change whether the Honour Guard can kill their intended targets, rather how survivable they are. Putting him elsewhere would be inefficient though, unless you buy another assault unit, so keeping him with the Honour Guard is preferable.

 

Putting the Librarian elsewhere is advisable, but then you need a minimum of 90pts Tactical squad + transport to do so, looking at a minimum payment of 125pts. The alternative is either more expensive or you are forced to combat squad a Tactical squad, which means you lose the survivability on a Combat squad and turn the other into an assault force = inefficient and situational.

 

So now we have the direct costs comparison of 115pts and an additional cost necessitated by having to take an additional escort of a minimum of 125pts for a total of 240pts difference. Not a problem in assaults or within Avenger range so it isn't additional cost there, but for firepower reasons you are worse off.

 

So this difference is to the army list construction directly, so the actual cost to the army of Librarian + Assault Terminators + Landraider + additional escort is a (minimum) 675pts.

 

The Honour Guard + Chapter Master + Razorback is still 435pts.

 

What's more removing a Landraider and it’s contents have a greater impact on the rest of the army’s ability to win the game than removing a Rhino and it’s assault based contents. This is because the Landraider makes up a considerable points investment in the army's firepower, where as the Rhino doesn't. Buying the escort for the Librarian also cuts down on points that can be spent on firepower.

 

The Landraider doesn’t just come with increased cost but also impacts the shape and capacity of the rest of the army. It also presents very difficult choices to a player; what is he going to do to protect it (if possible)? Is he going to use it as fire support or an assault vehicle, as doing one has an adverse effect on the other role? How is he going to shape his list to compensate for it’s removal, as not only do you lose a battle tank and transport, but a significant amount of firepower also?

 

The rest of the opponent’s firepower will now have very clear roles to focus in. The Rifleman Dreadnought can ignore the Landraider safe that it isn’t making a mistake, for example.

 

On the other hand, a Rhino or equivalent transport becomes almost expendable. It can be slotted into a list with little harm to the rest of the list’s synergy and capacity to perform it’s roles. It doesn’t require additional units to fit in around it, therefore not presenting additional cost (as we all have Tactical squads in Rhinos, Dreads/Predators and Landspeeders anyway and we all agree in their importance in a Marine list). It’s removal, although often painful, will not take with it a 3rd of your armies ranged firepower. It won’t mean the rest of the army is out numbered so much your ability to win the game is comprised.

 

A Rhino assault unit forces opponents to decide what to shoot at it and how much resource to dedicate to it. Sharing the same attributes as other Rhino borne units and other light vehicles, all those anti-tanks shots need to be allocated a target and that means more decisions for an opponent. More decisions equal more chance of things going wrong or mistakes being made (remember we all rely on luck in 40K, whether we like it or not).

 

And lastly, the Rhino may be weaker than a Landraider, but it sure isn’t going to die that easily! No-one can gurantee the destruction of a Rhino in any turn and careful placement of your units alleviates the problem somewhat.

 

Summary

 

I'm not saying a Landraider is rubbish, rather that it is a unit that requires very specific thought and playstyle added into the list to be effective. Whilst it is true that (using the example above) that the Honour Guard + CM + Razorback amounts to only 15pts cheaper than the Landraider + Librarian, removing the former will not result in a significant proportion of your points being removed also. Moving them does not result in loss of firepower for the army either. Selecting them won't neccessitate additional points being spent on an escort for your HQ choice that has no where to go.

 

The biggest issue at the heart of the question is whether the Rhino can survive long enough for the assault unit to make contact with the opponent. I say yes, for the reasons I have debated at length already (basically easier to get a cover save, more target saturation, careful placement and movement along flanks etc and the 5th edition rules themselves).

 

If you accept those reasons then you can start using a Rhino borne assault unit and enjoy the experience (hopefully). If you deny them, that's fine and stick to what you know. At the end of the day it's about playstyle; some people can't get the most out of a Landraider (me) whilst others struggle with the notion of a Transport with assault specialists which needs to play clever to get the most out of it.

 

The main difference between the avenue of attack of a Landraider and a Rhino seems to be the Landraider is for direct assaults whilst the Rhino needs to be utilised along a flank and in support of other things in your army. Bare this in mind when making your decision.

[mowglie]

I'm still not understanding how the 435pt razorback is "expendable". Either way you're losing almost a third of your army in a single shot.

[Giga]

I'm still not understanding how the 435pt razorback is "expendable". Either way you're losing almost a third of your army in a single shot.

Quoted for truth. :)

[Captain Idaho]

I'm still not understanding how the 435pt razorback is "expendable". Either way you're losing almost a third of your army in a single shot.

 

I didn't say the Razorback was expendable, I said it was almost expendable.

 

And if you read it in context of the rest of the text, you will see I was actually talking about it becoming almost expendable. I didn't elaborate on this because to be honest I was tired after being so extensive in my replies recently. I think it is pretty obvious I don't treat an assault unit as expendable in the Rhino and I was referring to the Rhino itself being expendable. I wasn't referring to the unit inside when I said the Rhino is expendable, read it again.

 

Referring to the Rhino, it does become almost expendable, almost because nothing really is in a Space Marines list, as opposed to other armies that can afford to throw units away. If it dies doing it's job then so be it.

 

If the Landraider dies dropping off it's cargo, you can't say that is ok, because you lose a unit worth alot of points and a substantial amount of your army's firepower.

 

Didn't think I would have to explain that, but I guess you guys are desparate to poke holes in my argument! :pinch:

[Hellios]

drop pod... my work is done...

[Captain Idaho]

drop pod... my work is done...

 

Indeed, another reason why a Landraider might not be neccessary!