It all went horribly wrong

[Gumo9]

The other day I played my Blood Angels against my son's Tyranids and suffered a humiliating defeat. I have to say that we don't play competitive lists (it's a game for fun after all) and on this occasion we were just trying out a few new models that we had recently built. Here is the scenario

 

Battle Missions: Infestation

1000 points each

 

My list:

Tycho

Tactical Squad

Landraider Crusader

Baal Pred with Flamestorm and heavy bolter sponsons

Vanguard Vets with lots of goodies

 

Son's List:

Swarmlord

Trygon Prime

3 Tyranid Warriors

16 Genestealers + Brood Lord

 

Tyranids took first turn and the Swarmlord and Trygon crippled my Baal while the Genestealers ripped my Landraider to pieces with their rending claws. My turn saw my tactical marines and Tycho not doing particularly well against the surrounding Genestealers with their amazing initiative.

 

The following turn saw Tycho bite the dust and my tactical squad was down to just the sergeant with the Swarmlord and Trygon closing in to join the party. Fortune smiled in turn three with my Vanguard vets arriving with a pinpoint accurate deep strike and the Heroic Intervention nearly wiped out the genestealers before the inevitable happened.... squashed by bugs.

 

Anyway, that is the background and it got me thinking about two points in particular.

 

1. Battle Missions games are really biased towards the home team with first turn invariably going to them. This meant I just had to sit and wait while Tyranids just rolled all over me. (at least I did a scout move with the baal so didn't suffer automatic hits).

 

2. Genestealer initiative is a nightmare and the only way of coming out unscathed is putting all my faith in power armour.

 

So, my question to the BA community is....

 

How can an aggressive army like ours gain the upper hand when the other side gets first go, and, what is the solution to Genestealers?

 

Comments welcome guys

 

G

[Jorre]

From what I can see your army list is illegal, only having 1 troop selection. Since its family and your just playing friendly games i'm sure its ok just thought I'd point it out. That could be half your problem though to many points spent on expensive guys Land raiders Tycho and vanguard are not cheap. In small games maybe focus on cheaper units like regular assault squads in Razorbacks as they are great bang for your buck

 

Secondly how did genestealers kill a land raider even if they roll maximum for there rending they can only get a 13 to penetrate armour and Land raiders have 14 armour all around. Unless I am missing something about genestealers I thought they only strength 4.

 

I really hate genestealers also there high initiative, high attacks, fast speed and rending attacks makes them dangerous, there are not many things I would want in Hand to hand combat with them, luckily they are really weak and a simple bolter will kill them easily, only problem is if your in bolter range they are to close for comfort and will charge soon! I find the best way to kill them is to sit in cover and just rapid fire them to death. Let them charge you through difficult terrain so that they strike at initiative 1 giving you the first round of combat, Stealers hit hard but they can't take a hit in return any fire power you direct at them will thin there numbers and being in cover will allow you to kill a lot of them off before they strike. Of course 1 Baal predator in the right place at the right time could prolly wipe out a squad of genestealers in a single round of firing. A well placed tank shock to bunch them up followed by a flamestorm cannon and its bbq critters for dinner!

[Lynnean]

From what I can see your army list is illegal, only having 1 troop selection. Since its family and your just playing friendly games i'm sure its ok just thought I'd point it out. That could be half your problem though to many points spent on expensive guys Land raiders Tycho and vanguard are not cheap. In small games maybe focus on cheaper units like regular assault squads in Razorbacks as they are great bang for your buck

 

Secondly how did genestealers kill a land raider even if they roll maximum for there rending they can only get a 13 to penetrate armour and Land raiders have 14 armour all around. Unless I am missing something about genestealers I thought they only strength 4.

 

I really hate genestealers also there high initiative, high attacks, fast speed and rending attacks makes them dangerous, there are not many things I would want in Hand to hand combat with them, luckily they are really weak and a simple bolter will kill them easily, only problem is if your in bolter range they are to close for comfort and will charge soon! I find the best way to kill them is to sit in cover and just rapid fire them to death. Let them charge you through difficult terrain so that they strike at initiative 1 giving you the first round of combat, Stealers hit hard but they can't take a hit in return any fire power you direct at them will thin there numbers and being in cover will allow you to kill a lot of them off before they strike. Of course 1 Baal predator in the right place at the right time could prolly wipe out a squad of genestealers in a single round of firing. A well placed tank shock to bunch them up followed by a flamestorm cannon and its bbq critters for dinner!

it's a special mission, where (IIRC) you need 1 troops selection/no troops at all ;)

[Jorre]

From what I can see your army list is illegal, only having 1 troop selection. Since its family and your just playing friendly games i'm sure its ok just thought I'd point it out. That could be half your problem though to many points spent on expensive guys Land raiders Tycho and vanguard are not cheap. In small games maybe focus on cheaper units like regular assault squads in Razorbacks as they are great bang for your buck

 

Secondly how did genestealers kill a land raider even if they roll maximum for there rending they can only get a 13 to penetrate armour and Land raiders have 14 armour all around. Unless I am missing something about genestealers I thought they only strength 4.

 

I really hate genestealers also there high initiative, high attacks, fast speed and rending attacks makes them dangerous, there are not many things I would want in Hand to hand combat with them, luckily they are really weak and a simple bolter will kill them easily, only problem is if your in bolter range they are to close for comfort and will charge soon! I find the best way to kill them is to sit in cover and just rapid fire them to death. Let them charge you through difficult terrain so that they strike at initiative 1 giving you the first round of combat, Stealers hit hard but they can't take a hit in return any fire power you direct at them will thin there numbers and being in cover will allow you to kill a lot of them off before they strike. Of course 1 Baal predator in the right place at the right time could prolly wipe out a squad of genestealers in a single round of firing. A well placed tank shock to bunch them up followed by a flamestorm cannon and its bbq critters for dinner!

it's a special mission, where (IIRC) you need 1 troops selection/no troops at all ;)

 

 

Ah my apologies I didn't know that. I have not had a in depth read of the different battle mission rules

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

I must say indeed that this game was probably a problem of too much eggs in one basket. A Land Raider in a 1000 points game is asking for it to get cooked early in the game.

 

Still though, I understand the desire to play it in a friendly game and if it is a new model.

 

Bit of advice I can give is:

- Play a Sanguinary Priest. We really need them.

- Combat squad your Tact Squad.. And spread them out enough to avoid a double assault but close enough they can help each other. One will be slaughtered, but the other gets a chance to charge (with probably FNP + FC as well)

- Shoot the Genestealers, they are the hardest to handle once in CC

[Gumo9]

Hi guys, thanks for the replies

 

We weren't too bothered about strict legality of troop choices on this one as we just wanted to throw a few new models on the board to see how they did.

 

My plan was to charge around the board with the Baal while my industructable Landraider caused similar mayhem, only unloading the troops if I necessary. I've never used Vanguard Vets before so I wanted to give the Heroic Intervention a field test before investing the points in a "proper" game.

 

It was the Brood Lord (Str 5) that took out the LR with some amazingly lucky dice rolls (immobilised, weapons gone and then another "weapon destroyed" = wrecked!).

 

For points values of 1000 or less, my son's Tyranids tend to beat me quite easily. Over 1000 points my BA's usually win. has anyone else found a particular points threshold that favours or disadvantages Blood Angels?

 

G

[daboarder]

Yeah as always BA need to play at higher point levels to get the tools to be effective. I like how that is still the case with the new book.

[GlauG]

My personal thoughts on small, elite armies are that they tend to function best around 1500pts (and some no higher than 2000). I played Dark Angels "Doublewing" for ages, and 1500 was really the optimum there, based on what you could buy versus what the opponent would have on the table in terms of numbers, 1750 is usually okay as (at least around here) for most people it means taking a big thing you can't normally afford in a 1500pt army and sticking that on top of your usual :P. I haven't played at less than 1500 with my BA unless you count Kill Team games, but I get the feeling that I'd fare a lot less well at 1000 since I wouldn't be able to take, say, Mephiston or Furioso Librarian Dreads without a lot of shuffling, and they tend to draw the fire away from my troops and let them get the job done.

[Brother Nihm]

Jorre has it, the best way to deal with 'stealers is to put everything in cover. I don't bother shooting them unless they have a Broodlord (or number 8+ with Toxin). They don't have assault grenades so their high ini is wasted and their low armour save will hurt them. Against the Swarmlord and broodlord it is advisable to pack a psychic hood into the list somehow. Paroxysm and glare can quickly turn the tide in his favour.

[Leonaides]

First thoughts - you were facing the Swarmlord, a Trygon Prime, and a Broodlord/Genestealer squad and you call that a friendly 1000pt game? I'd call it something different. ;)

 

Secondly - even saying that, you ought to have been able to 'relatively' comfortably beat him, but your deployment appears to have been in error. Assuming a standard sized board, you should have had an area 3x2ft to deploy into, leaving him with an L-shaped deployment zone where the long axis was 6ft by 1ft (like a standard pitched battle deployment zone), with the short axis being 4 ft by 2 ft (overlapping with the bottom 2ft of the long axis). Swarmlord doesnt have wings if I recall, and a Broodlord means that the stealers lose their infiltrate/outflank (I think?). Trygon has its wierd DS every turn thing going on, so you cant really do anything about that, but why, having seen the Tyranid deployment, and knowing the likely charge ranges and chance of you getting the first turn, did you put yourself in the positon to get charged like that? Neither of you would have learnt that much from such a situation - he's learnt that Nids kill marines in CC, and you've learnt that Nids kill marines in CC.

 

In such a situation, where you are highly unlikely to go first, Deployment is key. Deploy defensively, or offer a sacrificial unit in a commanding position that your enemy cant afford to ignore, but will pull him into range of your counter attack. I find it interesting that you believe the battle missions are all heavliy stacked in favour of the 'home team' - deploying first and/or going first can be just as much of a disadvantage if you opponent is ready for it.

 

Given your available list, I would have started everything on the board, put the LRC and Baal towards the rear of my zone (or used the Baals scout move to get it into a safe area (could still be back of my zone, but counting as moving this time) and the vanguard behind them. Spread out a bit to minimise the potential damage of the Trygons DS attack, then wait for him to come towards me in the first turn. My first turn, given he's had to close the range and dependant on equipment loadout on the squads - Move away from monstrous creatures, and prioritise the Stealers with the tanks shooting, and move Vanguard to intercept the Trygon if neccessary (IE: its DS'd to near your tanks). Dont get out of the LRC with the Tac squad/Tycho yet - they're safer inside. Next turn, he advances agian (hopefully still just out of combat range with Swarmlord and Stealers). My second turn - pounce. Baal goes for the kill on the stealers (after the last turns 16 shots at them hopefully there arent too many left), moving into flamestorm range if possible/desirable (ie they're all clumped up in cover to try and stop you doing the same focus-firing again). At the least - this'll make you much harder to hit in CC if he has any survivors. LRC moves to either Trygon (if it wasnt already engaged last turn) or Swarmlord, and opens up for tac squad. Tac squad and Tycho get out (separately) and prepare to join the shooting. 12 hurricane bolter shots, 4 Assault cannon shots and any pintle weaponry fromthe LRC first then, dependant on how many wounds this has taken off, you can either rapid fire with the Tacs, and use Tychos special ammo (hopign to kill with shooting) or single shot with pistols and Tycho uses his melta shot in preparation to charge (as its much better to deny him the charge if you think you can t kill him in shooting alone). Depending on sergeant loadout (PF?) you can charge Tycho in separately, or the Tac squad in (tarpit and get a lucky PF wound or 2) or both. Hopefully you should finish turn 2 with a bunch of dead stealers (if there are any survivors their threat should be virtually nil), either or both of the Swarmlord and/or Trygon dead or seriously wounded, and two undamaged tanks and 2 squads at around half strength to deal with the injured MC's and the three warriors. You should win at this point, with the mobility of the tanks and their overwhelming firepower that he can avoid, even if all your marines get killed.

 

Are you sure you got the Broodlord/LR combat correct - by my reckoning he needed to do at least 5 of Immobilised/weapon destroyed to wreck it (2 hurricane sponsons, Twin Assault cannon, Immobilised and at least 1 more Immob/weapon destroyed - even assuming that you hadnt given it a Multimelta or pintle storm bolter).

[SamaNagol]

Poor placement. Your Baal shouldn't have been in range of anything to rip it apart in CC. Genestealers shouldn't ever be able to kill a Land Raider either.

 

IF you are going to take expensive things in a small list, keep them alive. Utilise the Predator's Fast rule and move 12" every turn only getting close to the enemy when it is beneficial for you to do so. And Land Raiders should be functionally immortal at 1000pts.

[the jeske]

2. Genestealer initiative is a nightmare and the only way of coming out unscathed is putting all my faith in power armour

or being in cover as they dont have frags and then you decimate them with your 2 A each model.

 

 

 

First thoughts - you were facing the Swarmlord, a Trygon Prime, and a Broodlord/Genestealer squad and you call that a friendly 1000pt game? I'd call it something different

I call it a bad nid army . the way 1k points spam/melta plasma the army would be tabled turn 2 against IG and SW. and it would have huge problems with BAs or chaos builds too.

 

 

as the list goes. you do not take tycho ever. you do not take a LR unless you make a LR rush build . you do not take vanguard vets with lots of goodies , even if the BA ones are better then the sm ones. in 1k points[well in more points too , but there you can start to think about other units too] you spam ras in rhinos or razors and you take mefo in every BA army out there .

[Gumo9]

Good advice guys, thank you.

 

My deployment was definately rubbish and I was hemmed in by lots of terrain that limited where I could place my LR and Baal. Out of the three Tryanid games we have played in the Battle Missions book I won the second mission only. On reflection it was certainly a good initial deployment that gained me an early advantage - I just didn't apply that knowledge to the next game!

 

 

I think our next match is on Friday night. We've not decided what to play yet but I'm quite enjoying the Battle Missions stuff so we might start the Space Marines scenarios.

 

cheers guys

 

G

[Leonaides]

there's a discussion topic in the tactica forum about the all-round defence mission you might find useful. Layered defence is probably your best bet though, as you will almost certainly start in charge range.

[Sanguinarian]

GREAT ADVICE CRIME EVERYONE!

 

I did cringe a little with the harshness on some replies, considering the OP said it was a fun game or 2 with his son, and they were trying out the new stuff to see how they worked moreso than gearing up for an 'Ard Boyz Tournament. :D

 

He took the advice a lot better than I did my 1st Post. ^_^

As long as we remember not everyone plays to win. Some just play for the FUN of enjoying their kid's enjoyment of the hobby.

[Leonaides]

Advice is advice. Sometimes is good, sometimes bad, sometimes welcome, sometimes not. but its still advice, even when not presented as politely as it could be. Its a wargame after all, cutting to the quick of the matter is part of learning to adapt to a changing battlefield and be capable of recognising when you need to change tack. Thinking your way through things with your head stuffed with cotton woll makes it harder. Think in bullet points.

[Burningblood]

OP=

Death Company (especially DC DREADS with Blood Tallons) with Lemartes leading them is a great answer for genestealers. Lemmy isn't an IC and he has I6, and if he takes a wound he also has strength six and six attacks. On the charge they all have furious charge, you can kit them out for power weapons, and they have feel no pain.

Try them out in a larger points game, using the VGV to back them up.

[Sanguinarian]

Advice is advice. Sometimes is good, sometimes bad, sometimes welcome, sometimes not. but its still advice, even when not presented as politely as it could be. Its a wargame after all, cutting to the quick of the matter is part of learning to adapt to a changing battlefield and be capable of recognising when you need to change tack. Thinking your way through things with your head stuffed with cotton woll makes it harder. Think in bullet points.

 

I concur 100%!!!

[o3gan]

I used to run a complete genestealer army and i only lost once (to some dark eldar person who made the game objective be something about slaving) genestealers on high amount are nigh un-stoppable as on the rare ocassion that they appear to loose a combat then another squad just comes and finishes off.

 

Id suggest getting a 10man squad of tactical marines in cover with a HB and a SB and shooting them to peices before they reach you as no armour save if they havent got extended carapace, and when they charge into cover you have first attack. (it might be worth sticking an assaut squad in with them to get enough attacks to overwelm them).

[Burningblood]

I used to run a complete genestealer army...

That's because somewhere in your soul you are evil!

I aprove!

[the jeske]

flesh hooks are like frag grenades

read the nid dex :tu: they are shor trange shoting weapons now. no frags for nids in the whole codex.

[o3gan]

flesh hooks are like frag grenades

read the nid dex :tu: they are shor trange shoting weapons now. no frags for nids in the whole codex.

 

woops, (i played along time ago) anyway all that means is, is that sitting in cover he definatley gets first attack

 

I used to run a complete genestealer army...

That's because somewhere in your soul you are evil!

I aprove!

 

I had over 90 genestealers and a broodlord at one point =P

[Burningblood]

too... much... crack...

:tu:

 

edited for spelling and a total blog knowledge fail.

[BladeEncarmine]

flesh hooks are like frag grenades

read the nid dex :) they are shor trange shoting weapons now. no frags for nids in the whole codex.

 

Not quite true. The Tyranids have exactly two (well... 3 if you include Deathleaper) units with access to something similar to frag grenades. One is the aforementioned Lictors with Flesh Hooks (Codex Tyranids, Page 41). While it doesn't actually use the term assault grenades when describing them, it does say that models with flesh hooks assault in initative order when assaulting into cover.

 

The other unit is the Carnifex, which can take frag spines (Codex: Tyranids, page 46), which do use the assault grenades terminology. Not that it's particularily useful or efficient if you're assaulting anything faster than a guardsman (no FC) or a standard marine (FC)... or at all if you took crushing claws (always strikes at I1), but they ARE available.

 

So, only Lictors assaulting into cover should overly worry marines.

 

*EDIT - forgot the Carnifex page ref*

[sac_ld]

flesh hooks are like frag grenades

read the nid dex :) they are shor trange shoting weapons now. no frags for nids in the whole codex.

 

Not quite true. The Tyranids have exactly two (well... 3 if you include Deathleaper) units with access to something similar to frag grenades. One is the aforementioned Lictors with Flesh Hooks (Codex Tyranids, Page 41). While it doesn't actually use the term assault grenades when describing them, it does say that models with flesh hooks assault in initative order when assaulting into cover.

 

The other unit is the Carnifex, which can take frag spines (Codex: Tyranids, page 46), which do use the assault grenades terminology. Not that it's particularily useful or efficient if you're assaulting anything faster than a guardsman (no FC) or a standard marine (FC)... or at all if you took crushing claws (always strikes at I1), but they ARE available.

 

So, only Lictors assaulting into cover should overly worry marines.

 

*EDIT - forgot the Carnifex page ref*

 

You forgot Harpy, Sonic Screech (Codex: Tyranids, page 43) that states on the turn that the harpy charges into CC it counts as having Assault grenades. (it also 1/2's the non-vehicle units initiative [rounded up] for the remainder of that assault phase.