Fast Attack Choices

[goldenwonder]

Greetings;

 

One area of the list I have never tried with Chaos is the Fast Attack category. Howver, with my Heavy Support slots overflowing I felt it was time to try something different and this is the one area completely vacant.

 

I must admit that I also really like the biker models and fancy converting raptors to represent either fallen loyalist marines or using the CSM plastic marines with loyalist jump packs along the lines that Chaos will typically loot whatever they can as Chaos' means of production will be limited. Olus the fluff arount my Black Legion force is that it is lead by a former Luna Wolf who clings to Legion Pride and resents/mistrusts the other legions following the decimation of the Sons of Horus after the failed attack on the Imperial Palace (this is just a rough idea which needs much development and fleshing out). On practical note, I cannot stand the metal Raptor models.

 

Also, increasing demands at work mean my painting time is particularly limited at present and I also wish to start a Fantasy army for the new edition (Haven't played since 5th Ed - going back to Dark Elves to satisfy my nostalgia and my interest in the woefully neglected Dark Eldar).

 

This means that I only have time to paint one unit (on top of my current painting load of a CSM Squad/Terminator Squad/Sorcerer).

 

I realise that there is a relatively low opinion on Fast Attack here but which tends to be the strongest. I have the means to a 10 man Raptor Squad and a 5 man Biker Squad - both with icons and with any special weapons combination.

 

My core lists tend to be built around 2-3 10 man CSM squads in Rhinos (2 x twin Plasma and 1 twin Melta+IofCG), a 10 man CSM squad on foot with HB/PG/IofCG and a unit of 8 Bezerkers in Rhino with other units added around this. I can currently play 1800pts but I am steadilly working towards an Apocalypse sized force (taking a break to start Fantasy for a change of modelling/gaming style).

 

At the moment I'm thinking the Bikers, with a pair of Meltaguns, Icon of CG and a PF Champ to replace my somewhat underwhelming Obliterators. The bikers are great models and their speed particularly appeals to me.

 

That said, with the presence of terrain, the Raptors also seem like an interesting option - albeit not a patch on their former selves but still useful - particularly in supporting an assault which is somewhere the Bikers don't really want to be even with T5.

 

Anyhow, I have zero experience with both of these units. Any feedback you can provide to help me choose one of these units would be appreciated. (I'll also point out that I am aware that these units aren't as good as say Plague Marines in Rhino or more Bezerkers - but I'm playing more for fun and I want to experiment with different units and use up models I have in my collection. I have no desire to use a cookie cutter multi-prince, multi-lash force - and if that weakens my force, so be it.)

 

Cheers

Goldenwonder

[Brother Nihm]

On practical note, I cannot stand the metal Raptor models.

Same here. While it isn't adhering to the fluff 100%, you can always go with this. Personally I would prefer the Raptor packs due to the sleek design and Chaos'y nature but they are just too damn heavy to put on plastic minis.

 

This means that I only have time to paint one unit (on top of my current painting load of a CSM Squad/Terminator Squad/Sorcerer).

I'd say if you are pressed for time then the Raptors are the way to go. I find bikes to be a royal PITA to paint, compared to regular sized marines.

 

I realise that there is a relatively low opinion on Fast Attack here but which tends to be the strongest. I have the means to a 10 man Raptor Squad and a 5 man Biker Squad - both with icons and with any special weapons combination.

That discussion pops up from time to time, general consensus where I play is that: 1. Chaos FA isn't really needed. 2. Doesn't bring anything to the list that another CSM squad in a Rhino does (see 1.) 3. don't mesh well with our other units and 4. Range from being slightly to very overpriced. Having said that I respect your reason to field them, I do it myself often.

 

At the moment I'm thinking the Bikers, with a pair of Meltaguns, Icon of CG and a PF Champ to replace my somewhat underwhelming Obliterators. The bikers are great models and their speed particularly appeals to me.

I am always impressed with the performance of my own Oblits, though given your experience I'd go with the Bikers as well.

 

That said, with the presence of terrain, the Raptors also seem like an interesting option - albeit not a patch on their former selves but still useful - particularly in supporting an assault which is somewhere the Bikers don't really want to be even with T5.

Bikers are actually remarkably well suited as a CC support unit, though I feel that is a secondary role for them. (I use mine as objective contesting/denial/deepstrike support via their Icon).

 

Anyhow, I have zero experience with both of these units. Any feedback you can provide to help me choose one of these units would be appreciated.

From personal experience CC oriented Raptors don't work well, you have to sink a lot of points into such a unit for it to be effective against MEQ and they still struggle vs other CC specialists (which is why you usually shoot those :P) and die like normal CSM. I find Raptors to be most effective as small units with no champion, using meltas or flamers (depending on the rest of my list).

 

Bikers are pretty decent at tank hunting in sizes of 6+, the trick is to keep them 'barebones', as in 6 bikers, 2 meltas - that's it. If you fear walkers or high toughness gribblies you can give them an IoCG and use oblits or termicide to support them against such (requires luck with the reinforcement rolls but is doable).

 

In short, I'd go with Raptors because I have little time to paint, but if I wanted a more solid unit then I'd go for Bikers.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[sword brethren]

both are expensive in points for them to work as anything that really hits hard.

 

for the pair of them i tend to kit out with meltas, melta a transport and devour the contents or use them to help clean up weaker CC units. for example imperial guard heavy weapons teams or devistators, just use your speed to put pressure on shootier units and then speed to your next target, you dont need to kill a heavy weapons carrying unit, just make them move.

 

that aside my new raptors have been wonderful againts very weak troops that either hold objectives or get caught up in combat with the likes of defilers or dreadnaughts, with limited attacks with the defiler/dreadnaught it can be an advantage to help it out freeing up from combat so it can tie up another unit.

 

on the other hand mark of nurgle with bikers give T(6)4 which can be very harsh on imperial guardsmen, eldar, and nids without toxin sacks.

 

on a side note Nihm is right about painting, bikes are nasty and raptors are easier and much more fun.

 

 

basically when it boils down to it you have to choose what you will have more fun with because both choises can fill each others roles, its just one is more tough and one can deepstrike.

[Possessed Marine]

maybe do a bit of both, bikes with icon to turboboost deep in, and DS some termies & raptors... that usually puts a damper on anybody's day

[Brother Kovash]

Icons don't work for Raptors if they deep strike in, so they may still scatter and then potentially mishap.

 

I might go with some bikes and the Mark of Nurgle like SB suggested. Sounds like a big point sink, but I'm still building my army up, so the more units I have to choose from the better.

[Possessed Marine]

Thought icons worked on any deep striking unit?

[Madcap]

On practical note, I cannot stand the metal Raptor models.

Same here. While it isn't adhering to the fluff 100%, you can always go with this. Personally I would prefer the Raptor packs due to the sleek design and Chaos'y nature but they are just too damn heavy to put on plastic minis.

 

I am using Sanguinary Guard jump packs (minus wings) for my raptors. I think the pack looks very "antiquated", enough to maybe be pre-Heresy. I did put the angel wings on my Lord and Sorcerer for them to count as wings, and they look pretty snazzy.

 

And while I'd admit that 8 kitted raptors = 10 normal CSM with rhino, that extra 6" of move prior to assault is nice. Not the most efficient choice for Chaos these days, but fun none the less.

[Brother Kovash]

Thought icons worked on any deep striking unit?

 

 

It says in the codex the icons work for Terminators, Obliteratots, and Lesser Daemons. Doesn't work for units using jump packs. Can't remember what page offhand, but it's in the armory I believe.

[sword brethren]

Thought icons worked on any deep striking unit?

 

 

It says in the codex the icons work for Terminators, Obliteratots, and Lesser Daemons. Doesn't work for units using jump packs. Can't remember what page offhand, but it's in the armory I believe.

 

ive seen that to now you say it...

 

 

page 81, models in oblit and termy armour may deepstrike safely blah blah blah within 6" of an icon blah blah blah lesser daemons MUST enter 6" inches away from an icon.

 

...blah blah blah, not for any unit using a jumpack or any other means of deepstrike transport.

 

 

 

and you are right the bikes are a point sink but people end up having to use harder units on them to bring them down when they could be using them elsewhere, my friends hate it when i use them as they have to set their better units on them rather than on more important units and if they are ignored, give them meltas and a power fist and go heavy hunting

[Possessed Marine]

ah yes, I see it now... well can still DS the termies right there, so technically I still win, lol

[Brother RedAxe]

When I use fast attack chioces for my lists, I go with Nurgle bikers. I mainly play wolves and they will tear up and tar pit any back feild units by turn 2. They make up for their points just holding back heavy weapon units and forcing higher strength weapons and power weapon/ power fist units to deal with them so you can shoot them as they try to get to the bikes before they run on to the next unit. I have tried every icon on bikers and have only liked the nurgle icon on them. The rest of my list runs slannesh or unmarked and ocaisonly some Tenezcth units.

[Ace of Gods]

5 Raptors in a squad. equip 2 meltas. Deepstrike in to take out hiding or give extra boost to Anti tank. Tahts about as far as i go with fast attack in my chaos army. They are pretty much a throw away squad. i suppose you could kit them up with a banner so you could deepstrike other things around with them if you happen to roll em all oni afterwords, but too much hassle and unreliability for all that.

I got some bikes also, but i dont ever hardly use em. there points just cost so much to equip em and use them it seems. maybe il ltray a 5-7 man squad out and see what happens.

[goldenwonder]

Thanks for the replies all ^_^

 

After much thinking, I'm going to go with the Raptors first and ass the Bikers at a later date.

 

Part of my motivation is that with the release of the plastic Daemon Prince model my HQ choice is changing and the Raptors will act as support and be supported by the Prince (a HQ choice I have refused to use for a long time because everyone and their dog seems to field one - but I need a change and the new model, face not withstanding is very nice),

 

The other part is that since I have branched out into including other gods in my force (Khorne Bezerkers, Plaguebearers as Lesser Daemons, GUO as Summoned GD) I've been contemplating using the Sanguinary Guard packs & torso's and going in a Slaanesh direction with the Raptors, using whites and pruples to contrast with the black armour. I doubt I'll use them as fallen Blood Angels (as the Blood Angel player in me won't allow it :P ) but the models are too good for me to wait until I can actually start my Blood Angels (deferred due to new Fantasy and the need to collect a non-power armoured force).

 

I'll probably keep the unit small (5-8 strong) , without a champion to keep points costs down. I may give the Icon of Slaanesh a try as it isn't too expensive.

 

The more I think about the conversion potential and diversification from undivided-only Black Legion, the closer I come to rediscovering my passion for Chaos Marines again.

 

I'll post a draft list when I get chance.

 

Thanks again for input, it is much appreciated!

Goldenwonder

[Corby]

heres an example I can think for using Chaos fast attack. However as stated throughout this thread so far they are very expensive and difficult to use effectively. and when using them you really need to build a list around them.

 

 

Bikers of Da Apocalypse.

HQ

 

Chaos Sorcerer. 160pts

- bike

- personal Icon

- mark of slanesh

- lash of submission

 

Chaos Sorcerer. 160pts

- bike

- Personal Icon

- mark of slanesh

- lash of submission

 

Summoned Greater Demon 100pts

 

 

Troops

 

5 Chaos marines 140pts

- Aspiring Champion

- flamer

- Icon of chaos glory

- Rhino

 

5 Chaos marines 135pts

- Aspiring Champion

- Icon of chaos glory

- Rhino

 

10 Summoned lesser Demons 130pts

 

10 Summoned lesser Demons 130pts

 

Fast Attack.

 

6 Chaos Bikers 268pts

- Icon of chaos glory

- 2 Meltaguns

- Biker Champion with powerfist

 

6 Chaos Bikers 268pts

- Icon of chaos glory

- 2 Meltaguns

- Biker Champion with powerfist

 

6 Chaos Bikers 258pts

- Icon of chaos glory

- 2 flamers

- Biker Champion with powerfist

 

1749pts

 

Sorrcerers go in bike squads with Melta.

 

Turn 1: turbo boost , rhinos roll up behind and pop smoke.

Turn 2: reserves arrive (hopefully) and land in front/near bikers. Charge if possible. Sorcerers can lash infantry into charge range of demons/greater demons.

Turn 3: ????

Turn 4: Profit.

[Brother Nihm]

Greater Daemon is a 0-1 choice.

[Corby]

Greater Daemon is a 0-1 choice.

More bikes then :)

 

Thanks for that correction.

[Sgt. Blank]

I'd say go with the bikes first if it's a gaming choice; they will probably absorb more punishment and can close into melta range a lot quicker.

 

Out of curiosity, does MoT work with the turbo-boost save?

[the jeske]

not anymore . in 5th you get cover not an inv save.

[Agemo]

I am confused.

 

What does this mean?

 

Greater Daemon is a 0-1 choice.

 

He can have 0 or 1 of them?

 

He has 1 of them.

 

Whats the problem?

 

The Greater Daemon doesn't use up Force Chart, so can't he have the three HQ's?

 

I don't know if you want PF on all those champs since your GD is gonna eat one of em.

[Brother Nihm]

I am confused.

 

What does this mean?

 

Greater Daemon is a 0-1 choice.

 

He can have 0 or 1 of them?

Correct.

 

He has 1 of them.

He does now, it used to be 2, notice the line saying 'edited by' and the timestamp.

 

Whats the problem?

There isn't one.

 

The Greater Daemon doesn't use up Force Chart, so can't he have the three HQ's?

See above.

[Agemo]

Ah, I see now.

 

Thanks for clearing that up.