Saving Throws

[fallynnknivez]

Okay so i was reading through my rulebook, just freshening up on some points in the rule book i THOUGHT i had down. Anyways. On pg 15, in regards to taking saves and covers, i came across something i may have been playing wrong the whole time. Or i confused myself.

 

Well i was reading the text under the image, and it makes it sound like some wounds can just disappear. In the text it says the player "rolls four saves for the space marines with bolters in one go, failing two. He should remove three models, but as there are only two models in this group as identical models, he just removes them both"

 

So here i am confused. Does that mean, say i was running a 10 man CSM squad, two with meltas, and i suffer say 14 wounds. First i allocate a wound to each model in the unit before i go on to add two to a model. So i line up 10 wounds and place 4 on the non-malta models. I roll saves for both my meltas and they pass, but i miss the remaining 10. This means i save the meltas but the rest of the unit is dead and there are 4 unaccounted for wounds.

 

Usually we play that if we have leftover wounds like that then the meltas are dead as well, but according to this that would not be the case and my meltas would still be alive and the 4 extra wounds would just be lost on the models they went too? Is this correct? have i been playing wrong the whole time? Wiping out my units when it was not required to do so?

[stinkenheim]

You have to allocate the wounds amongst the different types within the squad and each model must have a wound allocated to them before additional wounds are handed out.

In you example you have 3 different groups, Meltaguns, Bolter Marines and a Sergeant.

If the squad took 14 wounds and you wanted to minimise the number of potential loses then you coul allocate them in the following way.

8 Wounds on Bolter Marines

4 on Meltaguns

2 on Sergeant

 

Now even if you failed all 4 of the saves on them meltguns you only remove two casualties (as that is the number of models in that group). The same goes for the sergeant, he could fail both his saves but you still only remove that one model.

 

In combat you allocate wounds in the same manner nd in the example above, even if you took '4' wounds on the metagunners you would only count two wounds for combat resolution.

[Arikel]

Pretty much yep. The excess wounds on a model type that has been completely wiped out from the squad do not get applied to other members with different wargear, the guys who took them are just really, really dead. (No dreadnaught for those heroes;)

[Ravinella]

That was the way I read it as well.

 

Allocate to similar types, roll saves in groups, remove casualties from groups according to their allocated wounds that failed to save removing whole models where possible. Any unsaved wounds in excess of the number of wounds a group has are just lost and applied nowhere outside that group.

 

I'd hate to think I was doing this wrong as well

[fallynnknivez]

Okay, so wounds applied to models that are unsaved, only count towards "like models" only.

 

So that means if the 10 man squad was just regular csms, no upgrades or anything, they would all be wiped out right, if they took 14 wounds and i failed to save 10 of them no matter what models they were allocated too?

[Koremu]

Wound allocation is done counting models whch are identical in gaming terms as a group. It is entirely possible to lose wounds due to the vagaries of the allocation system.

[Frogstaff]

Okay, so wounds applied to models that are unsaved, only count towards "like models" only.

 

So that means if the 10 man squad was just regular csms, no upgrades or anything, they would all be wiped out right, if they took 14 wounds and i failed to save 10 of them no matter what models they were allocated too?

That's correct. However, say you had an aspiring champion and two with a melta gun. Then, by wound allocation, you would have three groups. 7 standard marines, 2 with melta, champion. So, you have your fourteen wounds to allocate (imagine they're all standing in a line). You start with a csm, end with a champion, and you've allocated ten wounds, one on each. You've hit the end of the line, so you go back to the start - the csm, and continue until you run out of wounds. So the 7 csm have a total of 11 saves to make, then one each for the flamers and champion. Even if you fail 11 saves on the 7 csm, the wounds are still confined to that like group.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Frosty's Wound Allocation Order of Operations

 

1. Enemy Rolls to hit

2. Enemy Rolls to wound (Uses Majority toughness)

3. Apply one wound to each MODEL untill each model has one wound, Then Apply a second, third, and so on untill there are no more wounds to allocate.

4. Seperate wounded models into different identical groups based on wargear and profile (so all marines with just a bolter in one group, ones with a boltpistal/ccw in another, plasmaguns in another, sergents in another and so on)

5. Roll armor saves for each GROUP

6. Within each group apply wounds in such a way to remove the maximum amount of models/wounds posible (for example intant death goes on the ones with the most wounds remaing), extra wounds do NOT carry over into other groups, they are lost.

[Agrab]

Frosty's Wound Allocation Order of Operations

 

1. Enemy Rolls to hit

2. Enemy Rolls to wound (Uses Majority toughness)

3. Apply one wound to each MODEL untill each model has one wound, Then Apply a second, third, and so on untill there are no more wounds to allocate.

4. Seperate wounded models into different identical groups based on wargear and profile (so all marines with just a bolter in one group, ones with a boltpistal/ccw in another, plasmaguns in another, sergents in another and so on)

5. Roll armor saves for each GROUP

6. Within each group apply wounds in such a way to remove the maximum amount of models/wounds posible (for example intant death goes on the ones with the most wounds remaing), extra wounds do NOT carry over into other groups, they are lost.

 

Just two questions

on 2, make sure that if there is a tie, it goes to the highest overall value (not the highest tied). This is odd, but is used in many sections.

on 6, why would you be required to insta the 2 wound instead of the 2 wound with 1 left?

[nurglez]

in the rule book, it states that you must remove a full model for each instant death inflicted, if possible.

[Agrab]

in the rule book, it states that you must remove a full model for each instant death inflicted, if possible.

 

which means a full model, not a model with all wounds

a model with two wounds is a full model if it has one or two, right?

[BladeEncarmine]

Agrab, to quote the English BRB on page 26:

 

"If among the unsaved wounds there are sine that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal (this is done for each group of identical multiple-wound models). This rule is designed to stop players avoiding single wounds by putting them on a model that has suffered instant death anyway."

 

So... you have to take off unwounded models when they're hit by instant death attacks in a unit of multiple-wound models like Nobz or Tyranid Warriors.

[Agrab]

Agrab, to quote the English BRB on page 26:

 

"If among the unsaved wounds there are sine that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal (this is done for each group of identical multiple-wound models). This rule is designed to stop players avoiding single wounds by putting them on a model that has suffered instant death anyway."

 

So... you have to take off unwounded models when they're hit by instant death attacks in a unit of multiple-wound models like Nobz or Tyranid Warriors.

 

thanks, was looking for the palce