How would you take down this list?

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I designed this 1500pt list some time ago and got some feedback from the good people in the army list reviews. This is not about the content and improvement of this list (thats more or less done with)

 

I would like some feedback on how you would go about defeating this army list and what weaknesses it has so that i can see what to watch out for and possibly what i can do to counter it. Since im fairly new to the game this information would be very helpful!

 

 

 

Captain: w/ Relic Blade, Storm Bolter, Artificer Armour, Digital Weapons – (160 points)

 

Dreadnaught: w/ Multimelta, CCW, Storm Bolter– (105 points)

Venerable Dreadnaught: w/ Heavy Flamer, CCW, Assault Cannon – (185 points)

Terminator Squad: (x5) w/ Storm Bolters, Heavy Flamer – (205 points)

 

Tactical squad: (x10) w/ Flamer + Missile Launcher – (170 points)

Rhino: - (35 points)

Tactical squad: (x10) w/Powerfist, Flamer + Heavy Bolter – (195 points)

Rhino: - (35 points)

Scout Squad: (x5) w/ CCW – (75 points)

 

Attack bike (x2) w/Multimelta - (100 points)

Assault squad (x10) with Bolt Pistols, Chainswords, 2 Flamers, Powerfist (235 points)

 

1500 points, 47 models

[Koremu]

The instant weakness that springs to view is that you have only two Melta units, only one of which is fast. Raiders will straight chew you up, and your Melta platforms will die almost instantly.

 

Where does your Captain ride? If he's on his lonesome then he's toast.

 

You've only got the one missile launcher as long-range transport popping too. That's not enough to prevent my Rhinos from getting to your (now dismounted) Tacticals, and you don't have the power to get me out so your Assault Marines can charge me.

 

Not a great list overall. My 1500 point lists usually mount three Melta platforms and at least five 48" range transport poppers.

[rat of vengence]

Just a few thoughts, though I also agree with Koremu;

 

5 ccw scouts? What do you plan them to do? They will die horribly to any sort of shooting before achieving anything I think, and wont resist an assult either

Both dreads and termies are walking, heavy flamers are great but who is going to stay close enough for you to use them?

Like Koremu said, the captain can't be in a rhino when it's full, and with a combat squad he is undermanned.

 

Hope that helps :)

 

RoV

[minigun762]

I see a lack.of long range firepower which is easy to get with codex marines. Focus fire on your mobile elements with melta at range and then wrap up the remainder

[Grey Mage]

I see a lack.of long range firepower which is easy to get with codex marines. Focus fire on your mobile elements with melta at range and then wrap up the remainder

Exactly- I can reliably expect to destroy both rhinos and get a good start on the attack bikes turn 1 with my 1500pt list. After that hes slogging accross the board, with 24" weapons and not alot of bodies- My SWs are already better at CC than his, and by the time he gets where needs to go the numbers advantage would probly be insurmountable, bad dice rolls aside.

[Jonas Stromclaw]

I second Grey Mage for how I'd beat it, as to how to make it better...

 

First thing first: drop the scouts. As already said, they die horribly. Use the points to buy one of your dreads a Drop pod (the multi melta one, preferably). That way, with the drop pod assault rule, you can expect to disrupt some of the enemy's shooty elements turn one. Its one of my favorite tactics and is absolutely hilarious in small games when you explode some tau nutter's only railhead on turn one. I would also make the multimelta dread venerable as it has the one shot anti tank weapon and will make it more durable if you droppod it.

 

Second, I'd drop the Terminator squad for another tactical squad with ML or LC and PG that sit at home, provide fire support, and most importantly take objectives near your deployment zone OR drop them in favor of two tanks, Dakka Predator and Whirlwind which together can help make up for your glaring long range defficiency.

 

As for the rest... its been awhile since I played with Codex: Ultrasmurfs. Anybody else got suggestions for the lad?

[Grey Mage]

As for the rest... its been awhile since I played with Codex: Ultrasmurfs. Anybody else got suggestions for the lad?

He said he didnt want any. Mostly, Id say his list needs more synergy. The units dont seem to operate in tandem very well.

 

Getting the Captain a JP would go a long way though, and ditching the HB on that tactical squad for another ML would be a good idea aswell.

 

The scouts could be made effective quickly with a LSS or sniper rifles, but that may not be possible for him.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

Actually my usual list (Riflenaught and Typhoon spam) would chew this up pretty well. but that's just happenstance. Raiders would also pose a problem, as well as vindi's. You need a little more anti-tank and means of protecting your units. (I'm not a fan of tactical termies)

[Jonas Stromclaw]

As for the rest... its been awhile since I played with Codex: Ultrasmurfs. Anybody else got suggestions for the lad?

He said he didnt want any.

:P

I need to pay more attention, sorry.

[deepstrike]

With my chaos marines I would use my lascannons to break your rhinos, short ranged dreads or instant kill attack bikes. scouts are absolutely helpless against my units. My berzerkers plus Khârn in landraider will be able eliminate any unit you try to push forward with the long assault reach. Your best bet would be to make heavy use of reserves to cut down the amount of incoming fire and try to setup good popout attacks from reserve. With scouts outflanking, assault squads and termis using deepstrike you might be able to pull off some mission wins, but its going to be very iffy.

 

You want a pointblank fire fight followed by an assault squad close assault supported by your elites and captain but trying to get your enemy into your kill zone is going to be difficult at best. You have no real way to force your enemy where you need him to be.

 

You dont really have a way to stop an assault transport rush by Space Wolves, blood angels or Chaos or compete in the shooting phase with a codex marine army.

[minigun762]

You want a pointblank fire fight followed by an assault squad close assault supported by your elites and captain but trying to get your enemy into your kill zone is going to be difficult at best. You have no real way to force your enemy where you need him to be.

 

You dont really have a way to stop an assault transport rush by Space Wolves, blood angels or Chaos or compete in the shooting phase with a codex marine army.

I agree completely. You have.made a list that doesn't incorporate many off your codex strengths. I would imagine this list working better under.blood angels actually

[Grey Mage]

It would get another scoring unit into the mix, and the increased rhino cost could be countered by lowering the equipment on the commander- like the missing artificer armor and relic blade.....

[Hellios]

I designed this 1500pt list some time ago and got some feedback from the good people in the army list reviews. This is not about the content and improvement of this list (thats more or less done with)

 

I would like some feedback on how you would go about defeating this army list and what weaknesses it has so that i can see what to watch out for and possibly what i can do to counter it. Since im fairly new to the game this information would be very helpful!

 

 

 

Captain: w/ Relic Blade, Storm Bolter, Artificer Armour, Digital Weapons – (160 points)

 

Dreadnaught: w/ Multimelta, CCW, Storm Bolter– (105 points)

Venerable Dreadnaught: w/ Heavy Flamer, CCW, Assault Cannon – (185 points)

Terminator Squad: (x5) w/ Storm Bolters, Heavy Flamer – (205 points)

 

Tactical squad: (x10) w/ Flamer + Missile Launcher – (170 points)

Rhino: - (35 points)

Tactical squad: (x10) w/Powerfist, Flamer + Heavy Bolter – (195 points)

Rhino: - (35 points)

Scout Squad: (x5) w/ CCW – (75 points)

 

Attack bike (x2) w/Multimelta - (100 points)

Assault squad (x10) with Bolt Pistols, Chainswords, 2 Flamers, Powerfist (235 points)

 

1500 points, 47 models

 

Ok well with the Space Wolves list I'm messing with at the moment at 1,500pts I can get between 12(13)-22(23) S7+ long range shots at 6 different units a turn depending on which exact set-up I'm using. I also have up to another 8 melta shots that can target 4 different units a turn.

My first targets would be your attack bikes and ven dread followed by the standard dread... now obviously the mission and terrain would make a big difference but I think I would want to hang back and try and cripple your S6 weapons at range... after this your transports (with your rocket tactical squad being my first target)... now that your range and mobillity has been reduce (still have assault marines, although I might cast hurricane on them hehehehe) I would use my ranged fire power to try and grind you down... I'm assuming your terminators will deepstrike which may well threaten my long fangs... but they have a terminator wolfguard in them so they may give some pain as they go down... but the rest of my army should be able to pick its fight and I'm confident that that if I keep my unit together 20+ Grey hunters + attached characters should be able to beat your assault and tactical sqauds... your captain being the biggest issue if I don't kill him at range (rockets/melta), however I have power fists as well so who knows...

 

If I'm honest it is all very good and well me saying what I would do but who knows how it would work out in reality... I will say however In take and hold (??? the one with an objective in each deployment) I assume you would keep the missile squad back (maybe a combat squad, with the sgt and friend in the rhino) and send the rhinos to take my objective... well I think I could cripple your rhinos quickly... which leaves you to either rush ahead with the assault marines unsupported or slow them down as well... terminators are unreliable who knows when they will arrive but they could cause me problems... but if I can mug them with enough men (if they are unsupported) I should do ok...

 

You don't want list advice but I thought as someone else has said that this list lacks synergy... maybe a little bit of rejigging would get it working together however (and I may be wrong) at the moment I see this army being fractured and you will have to decide between leaving units unsupported or supporting each other but not being used in the best possible manner.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Thank you all for the replies!

 

As it happens i would like some methods of improvement, i just wonder if that would take this post into the army list forums which ive already had some feedback on....though it was not as helpful as i would like.

 

 

Thank you for feedback you have given thus far and for showing up some of my more glaring problems and what to watch for.

 

Perhaps it would be possible to ask what you would change about this list and how you would use it tactically?

[deepstrike]

What do you want out of your army? Do you want to smash things in close than you need to have a way of getting close relatively intact and with enough striking power to break the enemy. Do you want a fire fight? Than you need to be able to gun the enemy down reliably. It all depends on what you are looking for from your army.

 

I was looking over your list and noticed you have flame and melta weapons everywhere why not use Vulkan. I noticed you had assault troops and dreads why not use blood angels. You need to find out what you need from your list.

 

This list is not terrible it just has glaring weaknesses that are easily used against you. If you were fighting an ork or tyranid horde army you would probably do fine, but most armies will be able to pick you apart.

[DerekLee688]

As someone who also runs a healthy amount of typhoons and rifle dreads I would feel bad about what my army would do to yours without taloring.

 

You could swap the MM off the dread for longer range weapons or give it a drop pod. This would increase the odds if it making it to CQC to use that DCCW.

 

Terminators are too expensive to leave to randomness, if they arn't in combat turn two, they arn't affecting the battle or making their points back. The five scouts are a scoring fodder token and nothing more. If you trim perhaps those units, then you can fit in two combi preds to counter the other guys transport popers.

[MrPants888]

Weakpoints I see are:

Assault Squad.

Walking Terminators with a short-range weapon (HF)

A lone, walking captain

 

-Assault squads, I have found, are pretty bad at what they are supposed to do.

-Terminators have to get very close to use the HF. They are either walking or deep-striking. If they walk, they will put out as many bolter shots as a (more useful and scoring) tactical squad and may never get to use their HF or powerfists. If they DS, they may flame something but you will probably have infantry in transports anyway. The terminators will, in either case, die before they do anything useful.

-Walking captain will not reach anything to assault. He will also probably eat a melta shot on turn 2 and disintegrate

[Grey Mage]

Thank you all for the replies!

 

As it happens i would like some methods of improvement, i just wonder if that would take this post into the army list forums which ive already had some feedback on....though it was not as helpful as i would like.

 

 

Thank you for feedback you have given thus far and for showing up some of my more glaring problems and what to watch for.

 

Perhaps it would be possible to ask what you would change about this list and how you would use it tactically?

Drop some of the toys on your Captain and get him a jump pack- he could really use it to get into assault, where frankly hes best at being.

 

Drop the HB on one of your tacs for a missile launcher- its just an all around more versatile weapon and superior in most metagames.

 

I would Drop either the scouts or one of the dreadnaughts. If you drop the normal dreadnaught then get the scouts a landspeeder storm with a heavy flamer and a powerfist for the seargent- gives you a nice scoring CC unit that can get off first turn assaults. If you drop the scouts, well with dropped toys from your captain you could afford a whirlwind, or a predator destructor with heavy bolter sponsons.

 

And if you have the points, get one of your tacs a meltagun, depending on how you intend to use them Id say probly the one with the powerfist.

 

The TDA is fine, but might benefit from the scouts having a teleport homer- or a DP for the Dread having one.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Thanks again for all the useful info! :P

 

 

What if i were to make a bit of turn around on this? So keep the basic structure and make some changes to primarily the mobility and melta as suggested...

 

General structure still the same but:

 

make the powerfist tactical a melta squad (meltagun and multimelta combo)

 

cut the scouts and deepstriking termies in favour of some sternguard

 

and the assault squad in favour of a CC command squad who can then sit with the captain in a razorback

 

 

Ends up with fewer models but all of it mobile and packing some more melta?

 

 

Any thoughts on this and if not what would better synergise for a stronger army?

[minigun762]

I like to give advice that doesn't involve redoing an entire army when I can, because I assume that a player picks certain units because he/she wants to use them. So with that in mind, I'm going back to your original list and seeing what we can do with it.

 

 

Captain: w/ Relic Blade, Storm Bolter, Artificer Armour, Digital Weapons – (160 points)

Much too expensive for my tastes and he's too slow. You have an Assault Squad so the natural choice should be to put him with them. I'd say drop the Storm Bolter, A. Armor and Digital Weapons and take a Jump Pack instead. Should save you some points and you're still a threat.

 

Dreadnaught: w/ Multimelta, CCW, Storm Bolter– (105 points)

Not a bad choice but his weapons are too short ranged to be walking up the board. Take the same Dread, give him a Heavy Flamer and a Pod. Its more expensive but now you have a unit that can appear wherever you want on the table and be a threat to armor and exposed infantry while still being fairly cheap.

Venerable Dreadnaught: w/ Heavy Flamer, CCW, Assault Cannon – (185 points)

Again its too expensive and slow to be a real threat. I don't really like Ven Dreads that much because they cost so much so my advice would be to consider replacing it with a RifleDread (2x TL ACs) or a podding Ironclad. If you want to keep it as a Ven Dread, I would suck it up and buy him a pod for the same reasons as I listed above.

Terminator Squad: (x5) w/ Storm Bolters, Heavy Flamer – (205 points)

I'm not sure what these guys will do for you. The give you alot of anti-infantry firepower but you already have that. Power Fists are nice but TH/SS are better for smashing up MCs. I want to say you should get rid of them and use the points elsewhere but if you want to keep them, take a CML instead. Walk them up the board and take advantage of their fairly decent range with the Missiles and Storm Bolters.

 

A general note for your Elites, I feel that you're spending too many points on them in general. Its a 1/3 of your army and thats alot to spend on non-Troop choices. Try to cheapen it up to around 300ish points instead.

 

Tactical squad: (x10) w/ Flamer + Missile Launcher – (170 points)

Rhino: - (35 points)

Tactical squad: (x10) w/Powerfist, Flamer + Heavy Bolter – (195 points)

Rhino: - (35 points)

I think my preferred Tac squad setup is Flamer/Plasma Cannon with a TL HB Razorback (you combat squad this one) and a Plasmagun/Multi-Melta/Power Fist one with a Rhino (keep it together). However Tac squad loadouts are an entire topic in themselves so I'll leave it at that. Good choice with the Rhinos though.

Scout Squad: (x5) w/ CCW – (75 points)

Not sure what you hope to accomplish with these guys. 5 Scouts should either be given Sniper Rifles and a Heavy Weapon to camp an objective or given a Power Fist/Weapon and put into a Speeder. Otherwise its just an easy killpoint.

 

For your Troops, I think 2 (real) Troops is not enough. Consider getting 3 Tac squads in as your foundation, 2 aggressive ones (to claim objectives) and one defensive one (to hold objectives) works best in my mind. Scouts can replace one of those squads but only if properly equipped.

 

 

Attack bike (x2) w/Multimelta - (100 points)

Good solid choice. If you can spare 100ish points, I'd like to see either 2 more MM Attack Bikes and run them in squads of 2 OR take a Typhoon and use it as long range support.

 

Assault squad (x10) with Bolt Pistols, Chainswords, 2 Flamers, Powerfist (235 points)

I got nothing against Assault Squads. They do the job of holding off dedicated assault units fairly well and with the Flamers, attached HQ and ability to get the charge, you should be able to wipe out weakened units like Berzerkers.

 

This is one of the difficulties with Codex Marines, you need to find an approrpriate unit to bury your HQ in. Assault Squads should work fine but as you have probably noticed, TH/SS Terminators seem to be the "in" choice. I say its up to you, you could afford either but the Assault Marines aren't reliant on a 250+ point transport to move around.

 

I think you have a good foundation and if you mess around with your points some, you'll find something that works for you. Just remember the strengths of your codex.

[deepstrike]

I like to give advice that doesn't involve redoing an entire army when I can, because I assume that a player picks certain units because he/she wants to use them. So with that in mind, I'm going back to your original list and seeing what we can do with it.

 

 

 

I think you have a good foundation and if you mess around with your points some, you'll find something that works for you. Just remember the strengths of your codex.

Im going to agree with these suggestions. You begin with what you want play some games then start changing stuff. People have what they have in there own armies because of time spent with that list. Netlisting will not give you a better understanding of your army just what someone else who thinks, acts and plays completely different, believes works well

 

I wont even bother trying to post my World Eater list as it flies in the face of pretty much all common net wisdom of what makes a good army, yet I have a lot of fun playing it and win games at the same time.