A 5 men sniper scout squad for objective holding?

[Giga]

SHORT STORY:

Do you think that a 5-6 men unit of sniper scouts, with camo-cloaks and heavy bolter (comes out at 100-116 points) is worth having as a pure objective-holder?

 

The idea would be to either keep them out of LoS in case the enemy has anything that can possibly harm them at range. Basically, they'd be a cheap unit that can infiltrate, outflank, reserve, or just plain huddle in cover and hold an objective, while the target saturation from the rest of my army hopefully kept them alive. Their shooting would be a pure bonus - if they kill something, great, if not, who cares? Their main use would be to be alive at the end of the battle to hold an objective.

 

LONG STORY:

I've always been annoyed with the general ineffectiveness of tactical marines, and have been trying to mitigate the need to spend lots of points on this underwhelming troop choice for a long time now. I've used to run 3 tactical squads in 1750, but figured out that's too many points spent on dudes that can't deal enough damage, so I started using only 2.

 

After lots of playtesting I reached the conclusion that my favorite tactical squad is a full 10 men, rhino-driven, powerfisted, flamer+combiflamer+missile launcher infantry killer that comes out at 240 pts. Two of these squads assisting the rest of my army can really put some serious hurt on enemy infantry, survive under heavy fire, hold objectives farther away from my deployment zone, and generally be a respected part of my army.

 

HOWEVER, the problem with having two forward-acting tactical squads is that you run out of dudes that can hold objectives in your own deployment zone. Combatsquadding these squads is generally a bad idea as the missile launcher isn't an effective weapon unless taken in multiples, and a 5 men tactical squad really loses a lot of its anti-infantry punch, even with flamer+combiflamer combo.

 

Hence, I'm trying to come up with a bargain option for objective holding, but I don't want to take some total filler unit that can't contribute to the battle in any way. The scout unit I mention above, at least, gets a lot of deployment options (infiltrate & outflank enable them to take objectives on top of buildings or to contest enemy objectives), a big cover save (2+ if I run lysander!), and some guns that can actually, with a little luck, do some damage at range.

 

 

 

 

So, whatcha think?

[DarkGuard]

I used to take a small 5-man Scout Sniper squad with camo cloaks and I thought they were quite underwhelming. They have the range and the survivability, but with only 5 men if people keep shooting at you some will die. That and the damage they put out is poor. I know you stated all the damage is coming from the front, but I like my rearguard objective holders to be able to do some damage. In killpoints missions that'll be a wasted 100pts or so (though I suppose it is 100pts).

 

I kind of reversed your ideas at the moment, using Scouts with shotguns further forward and a full Tactical Squad with PC further back. I see Scouts with shotguns being more useful than those with snipers as they have a better impact role with increased ability to outflank etc. Reason I do this is because I run a Tactical Squad and Sternguard Squad further upfield for damage dealing and objective grabbing, and I rarely need another big presence upfront with my Vindicators around as well.

 

But yeah, my experience is that they're not good damage dealers, and you don't want a heavy flamer or assault unit to ruin your day. So if you run them you'd want to have a counter assault unit nearby. You are looking at the them the right way though, and that is the whole, if they hold, then that's their job, if they kill something, that's a bonus. I'd say run it a couple of times and see how you like it, always the best way to decide.

[Giga]

They have the range and the survivability, but with only 5 men if people keep shooting at you some will die.

The thing is, all I need from them is their survivability. They will die if people keep shooting them, yeah, but the way I see it their whole job would be to be alive at the end of the game to hold an objective. In killpoints missions they wouldn't be too useful, but I would argue that they still can force some wounds on an opponent, making it possible for them to actually deal SOME damage.

 

However, their main use would be to hold objectives. I would also do my best to place my objectives so that it's possible for my scouts to hold them while being out of line of sight of most shooting.

[Koremu]

If you're annoyed at how ineffectual Tactical Squads are, you're not going to enjoy Scout Squads at all.

[Tanhausen]

I say it sounds like a plan...if you are careful.

 

Scouts infiltrating or a podding and camping objectives... they usually are either ignored because you have bigger threats or flamed by some late turn speeder that contests objectives.

 

No unit is bulletproof, but I'd say that usually double-unit for 1 purpose is a safe bet.

 

And I agree: units either do the killing and get killed... or keep a low profile and pray to hold objectives!

[gettothegone]

If you're annoyed at how ineffectual Tactical Squads are, you're not going to enjoy Scout Squads at all.

 

 

/end of thread, Koremu wins.

[Tanhausen]

Maybe I'm under a false impression but... the original post is looking for an alternative for scoring units, not a substitute.

 

Hence, he wants to keep on playing just the same way... but now instead of killing AND capturing, his tacticals "only" have to kill and the scouts capture...

 

But we all know who the scout uber-poster is don't we? :) They say that if you call his name 3 times, he posts... greatcrusader08, greatcrusader08, greatcrusader08

 

*** This is more than probably going into his signature hahaha ***

[Giga]

Hence, he wants to keep on playing just the same way... but now instead of killing AND capturing, his tacticals "only" have to kill and the scouts capture...

That's right. :)

 

I find tacticals are actually pretty good when you kit them out for infantry killing and then throw 20 of them, in two rhinos, at the enemy. In this case, they are capable of dishing out a hefty amount of wounds when rapid firing + they can be used to pile into assault to add bodies or sheer attacks, making them rather good. In addition, target saturation usually keeps the enemy focused on other things in my army, hence allowing the tacticals to add the much needed numbers to the attack.

 

However, the problem starts when you need something to hold them objectives, and you're faced with the choice of either combat squadding your tacticals - thus rendering them inefficient as you suddenly have fewer dudes assisting your elites/HQs - or just plain keeping them on some objective, out of the actual fighting, which is even lamer.

 

Which is why I'm thinking that a unit of 6 camocloaked sniper scouts with a heavy bolter will be extremely useful in that they can stay in the back and just survive, repeatedly going to ground if needed. If they kill something in the process, then all the better. They wouldn't be so hot in kill points missions, but then that's why they cost 116 points total. ;)

[minigun762]

What about a combat squad of tac marines? Leave five back with the heavy weapon and put the other five in a razorback

edit: I meant take a third squad and combat squad it. Not one of your first two. The other option is take a speeder scout unit for support and move them onto an objective around turn four. You don't have to camp it all game long.

[Warprat]

I think you need to exchange the missile launcher for a plasma cannon. I run my Tacs with flamer, combi-flamer and plasma cannon. Other units like rifleman dreads and cyclones destroy the transports, while the plasma cannons hit the stranded huddled masses. Works well against deep strikers as well. Does not work so well against raiders, but missle launchers won't do too much good there anyway... The plasma cannon shots are worth having 5 guys standing still. It's very ususal for me to get 3-4 kills per shot.

 

But, I have thought about switching one of my Tacs to a Scout squad as well. Sarge w/powerfist and combi flamer + 4 CCW/BP's, 4 snipers + hvy bolter and a Storm. Or, the same with a melta loadout. Gives good flanking and flexibility.

 

Warprat ;)

[Giga]

What about a combat squad of tac marines? Leave five back with the heavy weapon and put the other five in a razorback

edit: I meant take a third squad and combat squad it. Not one of your first two.

I used to take one such tactical squad - with plasma cannon, flamer, and razorback. It'd come out at 215 pts. I feel having 3 tactical squads, two of them forward acting and one defensive with razorback is absolutely awesome troops-wise.

 

There are two big problems with this, however:

 

1) I want to spend as few points as possible while having troops that are good at what they do, having 3 tactical squads means I'm really overspending on inefficient troops (the 100 points difference between the scout squad and the plasmacannon tac squad really is huge when you consider the fact I can buy an additional predator, or more speeders, or two attack bikes, etc. for those points)

 

2) I only have one razorback model, and that one I'm using to transport my librarian and a 4 plasmagun command squad

 

The thing is, I don't like scouts in particular, but I feel having this cheap 5-6 men unit would actually be highly competitive in that it would enable me to use all my tacticals for offensive purposes, rather then being forced to combat squad them (which really takes a lot from their efficiency). The scouts, unlike combat squadded tacticals, would also actually get to contribute to the battle with their snipers and heavy bolters. They wouldn't do much damage, but they'd do the essential jobs of holding an objective AND freeing up my tacticals.

The other option is take a speeder scout unit for support and move them onto an objective around turn four. You don't have to camp it all game long.

This is a nice idea, but I really don't think the LSS can survive long enough to pull this off (it's an open-topped AV10 transport, after all) AND if I spend 65 points on it I may as well say screw it and get the aforementioned plasmacannon tac squad instead.

[DarkGuard]

5 Scouts with snipers are competitive until a heavy flamer turns up...

 

I do disagree with Koremu though, I feel that every unit should be given a chance and in the right list could do all right. A small Scout squad is less likely to be shot at than a 10 man Tactical Squad with plasma cannon, especially when you can give them a 2+ cover save. I forgot to mention my brother uses a 5 man squad with Telion, and they normally perform well, holding onto objectives and being annoying :D

 

You've actually made me consider this unit Giga, and hopefully if I get my Land Raider in time I'll be using one of these as one of two Troops choices (the other a forward Tactical Squad), to see how it does.

[Nougat]

If you're annoyed at how ineffectual Tactical Squads are, you're not going to enjoy Scout Squads at all.

I think the point is that Sniper Scouts will be less of a waste of points when guarding an objective than a Tactical Squad, due to their longer ranged weapons and low points cost. I recently picked up 5 snipers and have basically the same plan for them as Giga does, although I gave them a missile launcher rather than a heavy bolter.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Cheap and hard back court holder? it's not 75 points, but full tact with Free weapons+Libby with Force dome and avenger, or the short glass verison? 190? (5 +1)

 

i dont know about the 5 scouts.. if i was running my dual Whirlwinds, which i seem to be doing more and more... vs MEQ i know strange but working for me... these are the kind of targets i'm looking for, and double tapping them, in turn 1, or 2 or even turn 5 or 6... i'm still going to clear it even with cloaks and/or tech marines buffing ( iknow you didnt say mentino that, but i am) plus, with out any thing to keep AV away.. what's going to stop your Camping squad of scouts from getting tank shocked out of their camp site?

[Koremu]

However, the problem starts when you need something to hold them objectives, and you're faced with the choice of either combat squadding your tacticals - thus rendering them inefficient as you suddenly have fewer dudes assisting your elites/HQs - or just plain keeping them on some objective, out of the actual fighting, which is even lamer.

 

What I do is throw my Tacticals forward as you do, and then retreat/regroup/reform once they get low on men and grab an objective. There's been several games I've won with only a couple of Tacticals per squad to do the claiming.

 

5 Scouts with snipers are competitive until a heavy flamer turns up...

 

I do disagree with Koremu though, I feel that every unit should be given a chance and in the right list could do all right.

Or a Dark Reaper Exarch.

 

I've tried sniper scouts. For a while when I got back into the hobby, I had only 1 Tactical Squad and 5 Scout snipers as Troops. The big problem with Scouts isn't designing a list to work with them - it's dealing with the enemy lists that just outright destroy them.

 

If you're annoyed at how ineffectual Tactical Squads are, you're not going to enjoy Scout Squads at all.

I think the point is that Sniper Scouts will be less of a waste of points when guarding an objective than a Tactical Squad, due to their longer ranged weapons and low points cost. I recently picked up 5 snipers and have basically the same plan for them as Giga does, although I gave them a missile launcher rather than a heavy bolter.

As I say, I never "camp" on objectives - I grab them in the late game with remnants of my main force. I don't overall approve of the tendency to designate units as nothing more than objective grabbbers. One of my Eldar opponents does it, fielding minimal numbers of Avengers and Jetbikes, which do nothing for the whole game and then try and jump on an objective at the end. It never works.

[Paulochromis]

Any useful synergies?

Kantor to make an SG unit scoring?

Lysander or Techmarine (MoTF) to bolster the ruins the scouts are in?

 

I tend to play SM bikers and mech chaos, so high to medium mobility, and favour Koremu's strategy of "falling back" onto objectives late game.

I therefore often end up placing objectives further forward to help out.

 

Your own army has mobility, why choose your near objective(s) as the one(s) to hold, whilst contesting the others?

In the take & hold mission, I often plan to take "his" and hold mine. I can place less mobile, but heavy hitters (preds/dreads/tactical terminators) in my deployment zone to contest the near, and send out mobile troops to take and hold the far.

 

Cheers, Paul.

[rat of vengence]

It is a worthy thought, but there are too many things that can drop a flame template on them and make them go away. this sort of unit is the ideal target for my LSS with heavy flamer, your scouts get replaced with mine, and I now have the objective :)

 

That said, if you are not expecting troops to be deepstriking/outflanking near them, they would be good, especially as they have a great cover save. the thing is there are too many units in most codexii that can appear nearby, not bothered at all by a mere 5 snipers. I second the call for a plasma cannon on a marine combat squad. at least it can contribute heavy firepower to the rest of the battle, and deter deepstrikers.

 

RoV

[Paulochromis]

So postulating that the idea of a camper IS worthwhile what's the toughest (scoring) camper available?

My guess (in descending order) would be: PAGK; Scoring Sternguard; Scoring Bikers; Tactical Marines; Inquisitorial Stormtroopers; Scouts

Of course, mounting the footsloggers in a Land Raider certainly assists, but they're not so cheap then =c)

 

Cheers, Paul.

[Giga]

What I do is throw my Tacticals forward as you do, and then retreat/regroup/reform once they get low on men and grab an objective. There's been several games I've won with only a couple of Tacticals per squad to do the claiming.

I do this as well from time to time, but I don't trust this strategy. With just a little bad luck it's easy to end up with my tacticals stuck in assault or wiped out. In addition, it requires me to place objectives in such a way that will enable my possibly-footslogging tactical remnants to reach them in turn 4 or 5, which means the objectives gotha be farther from my table edge, hence making it easier for the opponent to contest them.

 

I find having at least a combat squad left in the back or in reserve to be far better then hoping the remnants would be able to stagger back and get an objective.

It is a worthy thought, but there are too many things that can drop a flame template on them and make them go away. this sort of unit is the ideal target for my LSS with heavy flamer, your scouts get replaced with mine, and I now have the objective

That's true, but the idea is that, if the enemy had units that could easily deal with 5 scouts (such as speeders with heavy flamers, droppoding dreads with heavy flamers, colossus siege mortars, etc.) I would simply place those scouts in reserve/outflank and use them to pick up an objective later on in the game, effectively keeping them 100% safe for 2-3 turns (or even longer!).

 

So, for example, in your scenario, if I was going second I'd just reserve/outflank the scouts and then make sure that LSS (and other fast heavy flamers) is dead/immobilized before the scouts come in. If I was going first, I'd just assign a certain amount of shooting onto the LSS/speeders early on, or maybe even use those scouts as bait (it might be beneficial to have a unit of speeders kill 5 scouts rather then shoot at my other units, depending on scenario and situation). After all, those scouts dying still doesn't prevent my tacticals from grabbing objectives.

[tahrikmili]

I use a 5 man scout squad for rear objective holding.. But they are armed with Shotguns and a Missile Launcher.

 

I find 5 Sniper Rifles at BS3 are very underwhelming. At least the Krak/Frag are sort of reliable at what they do even with BS3. And if anything comes close I can shoot them IN THE FACE with the Shotguns and the ML.

[rat of vengence]

That's true, but the idea is that, if the enemy had units that could easily deal with 5 scouts (such as speeders with heavy flamers, droppoding dreads with heavy flamers, colossus siege mortars, etc.) I would simply place those scouts in reserve/outflank and use them to pick up an objective later on in the game, effectively keeping them 100% safe for 2-3 turns (or even longer!).

 

So, for example, in your scenario, if I was going second I'd just reserve/outflank the scouts and then make sure that LSS (and other fast heavy flamers) is dead/immobilized before the scouts come in. If I was going first, I'd just assign a certain amount of shooting onto the LSS/speeders early on, or maybe even use those scouts as bait (it might be beneficial to have a unit of speeders kill 5 scouts rather then shoot at my other units, depending on scenario and situation). After all, those scouts dying still doesn't prevent my tacticals from grabbing objectives.

That would work if the LSS wasn't outflanking/deepstriking, or the drop dread wasn't coming on later. We both get to try our luck with the reserves rolls.

 

RoV

[Tanhausen]

I have no faith in reserve rolls anymore... too many games with terminators sunbathing in the atmosphere whilst carnage was going on the battlefield :cuss

 

The best camping unit is a Deathwing terminator unit :cuss 215 points, 5 guys with a 2+ normal save...plus the fists do wonders when assaulted :cuss

 

Anyway, one of the most effective objective capturing tactica I've seen is a SW player that goes with 3 drop pods... 2 terminators with full combi and 1 scouts (or troops, not sure now...I'd say scouts).

 

His game plan is obvious: Turn 1, down go the termis on your face, blow up with meltas and flamers whatever they can and you have the pressing issue of removing them from your base/objective.

 

Turn 2, or 3 or 4, the other pod simply fall to another objective, hopefully a far way one, which you either have to devote highly mobile units or forget about.

 

The beauty of deep striking/scouting/outflanking capturing units is that when they come in, if you're smart enough and given the chance it something like "oh, by the way, you see down there, in the other corner? That objective is mine now! Come and get it...if you feel you can!"

 

Conclusion:

 

Scouts are not a bullet-proof solution, but I'd say they are a sound opportunity for flexibility and forcing the enemy to spread out.

[Giga]

That would work if the LSS wasn't outflanking/deepstriking, or the drop dread wasn't coming on later. We both get to try our luck with the reserves rolls.

One can still play it so that the statistics are in their favor.

 

For example, if you get first turn (or I make you go first), you're become the one who has to roll for reserves first, making it statistically likely that my reserves/outflankers are going to arrive after yours do. A drop dread is even easier, because it has to arrive in first turn unless there are other droppods going.

 

Likewise, there are plenty of ways to avoid getting flamed out-of-reserve/outflank, the least of which is placing the squad you don't want to get flamed some ~20" from the board edges. Infantry can also be placed on different floors of the same ruin, thus forcing you to pick one floor you're going to flame and thus only hitting 1-2 dudes, depending on the shape of the ruin. Finally, simply forming some roadblocks around the scouts can prevent the speeder from getting close enough to use its flamer template.

 

That's one of the great things about 40k. Nothing is absolute, and that's without even considering the vagaries of dice. :cuss

[Koremu]

What I do is throw my Tacticals forward as you do, and then retreat/regroup/reform once they get low on men and grab an objective. There's been several games I've won with only a couple of Tacticals per squad to do the claiming.

I do this as well from time to time, but I don't trust this strategy. With just a little bad luck it's easy to end up with my tacticals stuck in assault or wiped out. In addition, it requires me to place objectives in such a way that will enable my possibly-footslogging tactical remnants to reach them in turn 4 or 5, which means the objectives gotha be farther from my table edge, hence making it easier for the opponent to contest them.

 

I find having at least a combat squad left in the back or in reserve to be far better then hoping the remnants would be able to stagger back and get an objective.

I don't understand your point regarding Objectives - the whole idea here is to fall back (using a run move as well if necessary) towards your own table edge and grab your "home" objective on turn 4 or 5. It doesn't need to be any closer to the enemy table edge than it would be under any other circumstances.

 

And there's always Combat Tactics. On several occasions I've CT'd out of a fight, sprinted back towards my own table edge and grabbed an objective just in time for the game to end. Annoys the hell out of your opponents when you do that :)

 

The one thing to do with Objectives for this tactic is to make sure that there are two objectives in line with each other, so if you fall back off one, you retreat onto the other.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Im considering the 5 man sniper rifle team w/camo cloaks as well

bs3 just kills me though :)