JotWW vs Vehicles....huh? I think not!

[MylesTheTroll]

Seriously starting to lose faith in Games Workshop employees.

 

I found out a couple of weeks ago that my new job is directly behind the Chicago Bunker in Downer's Grove, IL...which is awesome since I've never been up until a few weeks ago. I get to work early just to watch and mingle. Same goes for my breaks.

 

Well, earlier this week, a Space Wolves player around 17 or so decided to use JotWW against a Dreadnought. Quickly, a red flag went up, and I pointed out that couldn't be done as the codex lists SPECIFICALLY what models the "line" affects.

 

He argued that it affected anything with an Initiative value. I of course ask him to show me where it SPECIFICALLY states that. Of course, he couldn't. He figured asking a GW employee would give his misguided insight merit. I thought it was a good idea.

 

The GW employee said that he was right. Even though he was showed the entry that specifically states that he was wrong. They both maintained that those are just "examples."

 

Yeah, :D?

 

A friend of mine had similar situation at the GW in Orland, IL in which the GW said that defensive grenades negate ALL BONUS from charging (i.e. Furious Charge). We showed him the entry, and that in NO WAY does it state that. He still sticks by his claim saying that it is just common sense.

 

Once again, :cuss?

 

Anyone else have similar situations?

[Skirax]

Yeah, I have a similar player at my Club and he refuses to EVER accept that he is wrong.

 

But why do they player like that working at GW? Seriosuly, they need to stop being like IG recruiters and frequently scan their employees. Ah, good old Wolf Priests.

[Thunderhawk3015]

It tells you what can and can't be affected by it in there yes.

 

Is it in the spirit of the ability for the ability to have the potential to work on a dread yes. Would I personally have let it happen, yes.

 

You need to consider that maybe the red shirt has 20 other things going on that he is trying to keep track of/deal with and may not have read the rule fully in the codex. If this game took place during peak hours then you need to cut the poor employee some slack because odds are(if your store is anything like mine) the place is packed and he has a lot to deal with.

 

Also in the rulebook there is this section called the spirit of the game. It has in there an easy way to quickly resolve this situation, roll a dice, worry about it later. Your local store isn't 'ard boys or another tournament. Once your done with the game, then discuss the ability and why it can/can't be used.

[Spazmonkey]

It tells you what can and can't be affected by it in there yes.

 

Is it in the spirit of the ability for the ability to have the potential to work on a dread yes. Would I personally have let it happen, yes.

 

You need to consider that maybe the red shirt has 20 other things going on that he is trying to keep track of/deal with and may not have read the rule fully in the codex. If this game took place during peak hours then you need to cut the poor employee some slack because odds are(if your store is anything like mine) the place is packed and he has a lot to deal with.

 

Also in the rulebook there is this section called the spirit of the game. It has in there an easy way to quickly resolve this situation, roll a dice, worry about it later. Your local store isn't 'ard boys or another tournament. Once your done with the game, then discuss the ability and why it can/can't be used.

 

While I agree with Spirit of the game rules, I disagree with the ruling made.

JOTWW is very clear, there is no mention of the model requiring initative or not. Thats just how the check is made.

It is very very clear as to what it effects and Walkers are not included in that list.

While I agree that it should also effect walkers it clearly does not.

 

But i very much agree that GW workers can get very busy and make incorrect calls.

 

But in this suituation you both agreed to mediate through the GW employee, so you kind of have to live with the ruling on that game and move on... Maybe try to educate the GW guy so he makes the correct call next time.

[Hotspur]

Some people clearly don't understand the rules. Just b/c the employee works for GW doesn't make them automatically right.

 

I have heard, though, that GW leaves a certain degree of ambiguity in their codices on purpose to encourage "house rules." I'm not sure if it's true or not, but it certainly makes for some serious arguing sessions w/ certain players.

 

Dreads are considered vehicles, even though they have an initiative value. It clearly states in the BRB that walkers are treated as vehicles (for all intents and purposes), so JotWW should not work against dreads. And the excuse that the "poor guy" had 20 other things going on is lame. I've worked in jobs where, if you couldn't multitask well enough, you got canned. In those jobs, if you only had 20 things going on you were lucky. "Poor guy" my foot.

 

Like T-hawk said, though, I would have just rolled a die and settled the affair after the game, if only to silence the blabbering fools.

[Schertenleib]

I haven't been to the Bunker, but I have been to Orland. Rule of thumb with those guys seems to be "keep everyone having fun". They might not have a great grasp of the rules or even insist on following them, but they do try to keep things moving and focused more on the fun of the games. After all isn't that what most of us are looking for, a fun game to play?

[Grey Mage]

*spreads hands* sounds like crap to me. But then, Ive heard this is a common occurrence with GW employees- they usually back the first opinion they hear.

 

Of course, my group house ruled it to affect anything on that list in the assault or run moves, and any choosing to act as a unit on that list- so assault marines can choose to walk, and tau usually say they are since it doesnt often make alot of difference.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

gw employees are trained to not argue. i had to literally show an employee that wulfen were no longer on the website personally.

[Branek Icefang]

I had a GW employee argue with me that a charging unit, with defensive grenades, negates counter-attack. The same guy told me that Ragnar gets insane bravado from counter-attack, as well as Furious Charge. I showed him the faq and he said it wasn't "gw sanctioned". Not only was I using my Wolves (so the latter would of been good for me) but the guy arguing with me was new to the game, so genuinely thought he was right. I corrected him, he was happy then the redshirt butted in. Some people are just stupid.

[Thunderhawk3015]

I had a GW employee argue with me that a charging unit, with defensive grenades, negates counter-attack. The same guy told me that Ragnar gets insane bravado from counter-attack, as well as Furious Charge. I showed him the faq and he said it wasn't "gw sanctioned". Not only was I using my Wolves (so the latter would of been good for me) but the guy arguing with me was new to the game, so genuinely thought he was right. I corrected him, he was happy then the redshirt butted in. Some people are just stupid.

 

Umm, if your redshirt don't know that all FAQ's on the GW site are GW sanctioned then he really shouldn't be employed at all.

 

I don't understand where these people are coming from since the local GW that I go to does not have many of the problems with the employees that you guys seem to be having.

[MaleOpener]

I've run into this sort of thing a few times.

 

I just call GW, and ask if I could speak to someone about a problem I have with a store. I just let them know what happened, always rule problems, and such problems don't come up in that store again.

[MylesTheTroll]

It tells you what can and can't be affected by it in there yes.

 

Is it in the spirit of the ability for the ability to have the potential to work on a dread yes. Would I personally have let it happen, yes.

 

You need to consider that maybe the red shirt has 20 other things going on that he is trying to keep track of/deal with and may not have read the rule fully in the codex. If this game took place during peak hours then you need to cut the poor employee some slack because odds are(if your store is anything like mine) the place is packed and he has a lot to deal with.

 

Also in the rulebook there is this section called the spirit of the game. It has in there an easy way to quickly resolve this situation, roll a dice, worry about it later. Your local store isn't 'ard boys or another tournament. Once your done with the game, then discuss the ability and why it can/can't be used.

 

While I agree with Spirit of the game rules, I disagree with the ruling made.

JOTWW is very clear, there is no mention of the model requiring initative or not. Thats just how the check is made.

It is very very clear as to what it effects and Walkers are not included in that list.

While I agree that it should also effect walkers it clearly does not.

 

But i very much agree that GW workers can get very busy and make incorrect calls.

 

But in this suituation you both agreed to mediate through the GW employee, so you kind of have to live with the ruling on that game and move on... Maybe try to educate the GW guy so he makes the correct call next time.

 

At the time that this happened, it was 40 minutes til closing, so it being packed or him being busy wasn't the issue. It was a fairly dead night. In the end, I told the player to do some research online, and even ask other Space Wolves players. He would find an overwhelming percentage of people agreeing with me.

 

I also reiterated the fact that the codex mentions the specific unit types that are affected would be pointless to list in the first place if vehicles were affected too. This power would devastate Orks even more if it allowed for walkers to be hit as well.

 

I understand the spirit of the game and such, but if someone is refusing to follow specific rules, and rather contort them to his benefit, then there's a problem. And it's not like I don't play Space Wolves too. So me trying to be biased, or argue that I can't use this power against walkers will hurt me rather than help me. But those are the rules. If it was similar to BA's Blood Lance debate on whether the units after the first receive a cover save or not, or that PotMS doesn't work for Storm Ravens moving flat-out, I can see the spirit of the game ruling happening. Those are tough calls, and ther are good points for each side of the coin.

 

The Red Shirt had plenty of time to read the codex entry he was shown. Just some people really just don't know what the hell they are talking about, I guess.

[Grey Mage]

Playing by the spirit of the game doesnt mean letting other players completely trash the rules any more than being a good man means letting :) holes talk about your mother.

[Hotspur]

Playing by the spirit of the game doesnt mean letting other players completely trash the rules any more than being a good man means letting :cuss holes talk about your mother.

 

:tu:

[Stormwulf133]

Lol I am just rolling laughing that some of you are astounded at the stupidity of an hourly employee at a gw store. Have you ever had your order messed up going out to eat? Ever had a cashier that didn't know what they are doing? Anyone in the work force should know there are just idiots out there. Every company gets them. They are usually really hard to get rid of to boot.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

Every company gets them. They are usually really hard to get rid of to boot.

aint that the truth. we got this one girl who takes orders while talking on her bluetooth lets just say the girl who was high as a kite was more productive.

 

then we got these two idiots in the kitchen who either cant read the tickets or make them wrong/doubles the order or even uses the wrong dough.

 

hell im just glad the servers cant screw their job up

[Bulweih]

hell im just glad the servers cant screw their job up

 

You could get lost in the restaurant :yes: !Vanished in thin air.....

 

No really now, when it comes to GW employees, there are several kinds but most of them appear rather like servitors then SM as they like to view themselves :huh: :D :lol: , which I think is the most ridiculous thing they do.

 

But to break a lance for those who seem to go under, there are some who really have a grasp of the game, are good people and try to make up for all those who are not.

[Grey Mage]

Lol I am just rolling laughing that some of you are astounded at the stupidity of an hourly employee at a gw store. Have you ever had your order messed up going out to eat? Ever had a cashier that didn't know what they are doing? Anyone in the work force should know there are just idiots out there. Every company gets them. They are usually really hard to get rid of to boot.

I suppose the difference is thus:

 

How many people do you know who have ever said "when I grow up/my dream job is being a cashier at the local grocery store!"

 

How many people do you know who would give their eye teeth to be employed at a gaming store?

 

Now, frankly, with that wider range of people to choose from, couldnt they pick someone who atleast knows what theyre talking about?

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

true however gw seems to have the reputation of killing their employees with ridiculous job habits sale quotas what have you.

 

the people that love gw and do get the job quickly become burn outs while the drones (ie those who arent players or lovers like us) manage to still not give a crap.

[Grey Mage]

Sales quotas are quite possibly the worst threat to customer service in the entire corporate universe.

[Schertenleib]

true however gw seems to have the reputation of killing their employees with ridiculous job habits sale quotas what have you.

 

the people that love gw and do get the job quickly become burn outs while the drones (ie those who arent players or lovers like us) manage to still not give a crap.

 

 

I have a good friend that worked at the Orland Park store. He loved his job. Thought there was nothing cooler than working for the place that made one of his favorite games. He spent a lot of what he made buying more models for 40K, Warhammer, and LOTR. He got fired for not making his sales quotas.

[Wolfeslad]

we simply made a house rule (as is the warhammer 40k way), since Walkers dont take tests, we just roll a D2 for shaken or stunned as the power would have some effect on them.

 

yet another reason not to go to GW to sort an inhouse rule arguement

[Warhead01]

thats nice...but vehicles are not affected..at all. so wheres the issue exactly?

[Gyson_Vore]

thats nice...but vehicles are not affected..at all. so wheres the issue exactly?

That GW employees may be infuriating when they don't understand ruled, even when pointed out directly in the book.

[Skirax]

true however gw seems to have the reputation of killing their employees with ridiculous job habits sale quotas what have you.

 

the people that love gw and do get the job quickly become burn outs while the drones (ie those who arent players or lovers like us) manage to still not give a crap.

 

 

I have a good friend that worked at the Orland Park store. He loved his job. Thought there was nothing cooler than working for the place that made one of his favorite games. He spent a lot of what he made buying more models for 40K, Warhammer, and LOTR. He got fired for not making his sales quotas.

I had a great guy at my LGS and he knew EVERYTHING about the game, but in a good way :D He was fired due to being made redundant. :D

 

Now the new guy knows diddly squat and I frequently have to remind him of the rules :(