Drop Pod DC Loadout Question

[tahrikmili]

I know it has been discussed to death and I know the merits of each loadout, but I just want to hear your opinion on the following unit:

 

Chaplain

9 DC

Drop Pod

 

Basically, I'm thinking of giving the DC 1 Power Fist and 1 Power Weapon. The Power Fist guy definitely gets a Bolter. Should I give the rest of the guys Bolters or CCWs?

 

On assault they are S5 I5 with the Chaplain so every extra CCW will make a huge difference. HOWEVER, I'm thinking with the Chaplain in there I should NOT need the extra assault to rip through anything I charge, and 10 extra S4 Bolter shots the turn I deploy can make a fantastic difference (This unit will be a T1 Deploying DP Assault squad, it will harass/slaughter enemy rear defenses, long range support squads.)

 

What are your thoughts? I'm really eager to see how the old metal DC models look with the bew DC Bolter arms. :)

[Emperors Immortals]

7 DC with bolters will give you 14 shots into an enemy unit, but not on the turn you deploy i believe.

 

Personally, ive found it a great idea to have 2-3 CC guys and the rest bolters.

[tahrikmili]

7 DC with bolters will give you 14 shots into an enemy unit, but not on the turn you deploy i believe.

 

Personally, ive found it a great idea to have 2-3 CC guys and the rest bolters.

 

Don't units get to fire on the turn they deploy from a DP? Note that the DC have Relentless too.. So? I thought they could?

[Morticon]

They def. can!

[Morollan]

I think a lot of people underestimate the damage that DC can do with Bolters before they even assault the enemy. Ten DC firing 20 shots at targets up to 12" away on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike can be truly devastating. They obviously lose an attack in assault but the chances are that they will inflict more damage on the enemy before that assault happens.

 

Quick rules question for you guys. The Liturgies of Blood special rule states:

 

"On a player turn in which he assaults, a Chaplain and all members of a squad he has joined can re-roll any failed rolls To Hit. Models in a Death Company can also re-roll failed rolls To Wound"

 

Does this mean that you can re-roll shots you fire before an assault? I can see this causing some problems if you intend to assault a unit but your shooting either wipes them out or causes them to no longer have models in assault range.

[SamaNagol]

No, because you have not assaulted that turn in the Shooting phase.

[Redo]

I think a lot of people underestimate the damage that DC can do with Bolters before they even assault the enemy. Ten DC firing 20 shots at targets up to 12" away on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike can be truly devastating. They obviously lose an attack in assault but the chances are that they will inflict more damage on the enemy before that assault happens.

 

Quick rules question for you guys. The Liturgies of Blood special rule states:

 

"On a player turn in which he assaults, a Chaplain and all members of a squad he has joined can re-roll any failed rolls To Hit. Models in a Death Company can also re-roll failed rolls To Wound"

 

Does this mean that you can re-roll shots you fire before an assault? I can see this causing some problems if you intend to assault a unit but your shooting either wipes them out or causes them to no longer have models in assault range.

 

This means that all DC can re-roll their assault hits and wounds. Not Shooting. Getting back to the DC; I am a fan of not giving away too many hits that are S5/I5 with re-rolls to hit and to wound. Simply amazing. What I have done is though give a few DC Bolters for wound allocation. I like to run with 8 DC; TH, PF, PW and 2 with bolters, rest with CCW/BP's. THis way I only lose 2 close combat attacks but have a a bit of shooting from the 2 bolters and the 2 bolters on the TH/PF guys.

[Ultramarcos]

I use a very,very similar list which is 8 men, 2 PW and 1 PF...the PWs goes with pistol, all the rest gets a bolter and they go inside a DropPod that makes 250 pts, exactly the same as a 10 men RAS with PF+2 Meltas+Rhino.

I add on top of that the Chaplain, or Reclusiarch (if possible), I learned that they add the punch I was not having with the Regular RAS....if you put in that list...Mephy, Vindicator and DCs...your oponent will have a lot of things to be worried about before going to your RAS or scoring unities.

[Morollan]

This means that all DC can re-roll their assault hits and wounds. Not Shooting.

 

Yeah, figured that was the intent but the wording is a bit unclear. Should probably say "can re-roll any failed rolls To Hit in the assault phase" or something similar. Thanks anyway for clearing it up.

[SamaNagol]

Actually, no, it doesn't. The only thing stopping them from re-rolling shooting hits and wounds is the fact Shooting occurs before the Assault phase. So it is a moot point. But there is a similar rule for Space Wolves which does work for shooting 'To hit' rolls as well.

[JamesI]

If I used drop pod DC, I'd definitely arm most of them with bolters. Keep the power weapons with pistols, maybe one or 2 regular guys with pistols.

[Taranis]

I used 8 with bolters + 1 with bolter and Fist. Gave them a droppod for transport and a Librarian with FoTD and Blood Lance. DC removed heavy weapon squad with their bolters. Librarian failed his test and missed the medusa and chimeara with 10 vets and 3 plasma guns. Beacon helped 20 Ras enter in turn 2. Mine are here to stay.

[Isryion]

I think a lot of people underestimate the damage that DC can do with Bolters before they even assault the enemy. Ten DC firing 20 shots at targets up to 12" away on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike can be truly devastating. They obviously lose an attack in assault but the chances are that they will inflict more damage on the enemy before that assault happens.

 

First, just to be clear DC with bolters 1 extra shot p/model over DC with pistols. Often when people quote these numbers they talk about the damage that 20 shots from 10 DC can do, but really, DC with pistols still get 10 shots. If you've got a fist, then it's 11.

 

DC with bolters will only inflict more wounds via shooting if you are not assaulting with them as much as you are shooting. If you are assaulting as much as you are shooting, you will be doing far fewer wounds overall than if you had bolt pistols. IMO, if you are shooting more than you are assaulting, DC are not the right unit for you;)

 

The only reason to ever take bolters is if you find yourself not needing the extra wounds in close combat. Again -just my opinion, If you are not needing the extra wounds in close combat, you are either taking too many DC, or (and I rarely say this) you're probably better off taking an equivalent pointed RAS unit who can score and have some better choices for weapons.

 

One last reason I never take bolters is that I often don't WANT to kill to many of my opponents to shooting in the turn I assault. There have been several times with my DC that I haven't shot (and that's with pistols!) because I didn't want my opponent to be able to pull models that are in assault range.

 

I realize that people may be making them work, but I really don't think bolters (except obviously on PF DC) is optimum choice, and if you're finding them effecitve, I'd argue that there are more effective options out there. I'm speaking just from a competitive/or what I consider effective unit choice perspective here.

[tahrikmili]

While this is essentially correct it misses a couple of important points..

 

First, this is a deepstriking unit that can't assault on arrival, meaning, essentially, whatever the target is will get a round of free shooting at them. Furthermore, if you are geared for close combat that means you are basically dropping within the enemy's assault range, or if you drop out of assault range then you are at a range where you can't shoot at all.

 

Essentially, for the DP DC specifically, the Bolters make perfect sense. They are effective up to 24" in case you scatter and/or want want to drop out of assault range, and if you plan to assault next turn the 20 shot Bolter Salvo will very likely significantly reduce the casualties you'll take during the opponent's Firing phase.

 

Afterwards, well, Turn 3 onwards the Bolters may become an asset (if nothing else is withing assaulting distance) or a liability (sustained close combat) but you can't bet on either. The only thing that's for sure is a Turn 1 arrival.

[Ultramarcos]

Absolutly right...and there are those rare situations, after you wiped out a squad and have nothing to charge...you might be in rage to fire some 24" bolter shots.

[Isryion]

While this is essentially correct it misses a couple of important points..

 

First, this is a deepstriking unit that can't assault on arrival, meaning, essentially, whatever the target is will get a round of free shooting at them. Furthermore, if you are geared for close combat that means you are basically dropping within the enemy's assault range, or if you drop out of assault range then you are at a range where you can't shoot at all.

 

Essentially, for the DP DC specifically, the Bolters make perfect sense. They are effective up to 24" in case you scatter and/or want want to drop out of assault range, and if you plan to assault next turn the 20 shot Bolter Salvo will very likely significantly reduce the casualties you'll take during the opponent's Firing phase.

 

Afterwards, well, Turn 3 onwards the Bolters may become an asset (if nothing else is withing assaulting distance) or a liability (sustained close combat) but you can't bet on either. The only thing that's for sure is a Turn 1 arrival.

 

I completely understand these points, but again, people are confusing the math. A 20 bolter salvo is only 10 more shots than you would get with pistols, but most act as if it is 20 vs. 0. It's not. It's either 10 vs. 20 or 0 vs. 10. You kill 3-4 extra models if they're not wearing any armor, less if they are.

 

Your last paragraph proves my point, btw. If you can't bet on what your unit is doing and are only planning for the turn 1 arrival, you're way better off taking a unit of sternguard, who will likely be able to kill far more in the shooting phase

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Has anyone found that podding your DC leads to them getting charged by an enemy unit & losing their charge bonus the next turn?

 

0b <_<

[JamesI]

That would be a concern of mine, but I haven't tried drop pod/deep striking DC yet.

[Isryion]

Has anyone found that podding your DC leads to them getting charged by an enemy unit & losing their charge bonus the next turn?

 

0b :)

 

Yep, and that's another reason I don't take the bolters. I actually have no problems with them getting charged. If it's something that is actually dangerous to them, they then tie it up anyway and if it's not, they're going to win regardless. I should qualify that they don't get tied up regularly in this manner because the opponent usually is afraid to assualt them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There are some units like Blood Crushers that will roll over the DC if the opponent gets the charge while in the reverse case it would be the exact opposite. I always try to make sure my DC get the charge.

 

0b :lol:

[Sanguinarian]

Since you can't charge from a pod, you have to put something in it (them) that can survive a round of shooting, so why not whittle down the closest unit with Bolter fire?

 

I agree that there is a degree of effectiveness that you'd reach or exceed with different loadouts and numbers. Five DC + an IC is my number; 4 of which have Bolters. I refuse to allow the enemy to dictate where my DC go, so I limit that as much as possible with 24" range Bolters. I have found that after wiping out 1 or 2 squads on the enemy's side, there's usually not much left to do while double-timing it toward the nearest enemy but to shoot, and 24" range is better than 12" range.

 

So as long as they've given us the Relentless USR, give me a BG & CS.

[Isryion]

There are some units like Blood Crushers that will roll over the DC if the opponent gets the charge while in the reverse case it would be the exact opposite. I always try to make sure my DC get the charge.

 

0b ;)

 

Obviously, but why would I drop pod near them? ;)

[BrotherMoses]

DC have rage so they're going to be moving towards whatever you're attacking. If you weren't using a chaplain I would probably say bolter to come out of a drop pod. The chaplain really begs for you to get the extra attacks though. Rerolling to hit and wound is just too good to pass up. So I would go CCW/BP unless you dropped the chaplain.

 

If you dropped the chaplain I would make it bolters, powerfist or thunder hammer, 2 power weapons, and then maybe some fancy pistols (plasma, infernus, and/or hand flamer) to give them versatility. Since you no longer have a definity punch in close combat (bad rolls could mute your power weapons) I would take some plasma pistols or infernus pistols. Maybe one of each plasma and infernus to help you deal with terminators or a walker which could wreak serious havok on the squad.

[Grey Mage]

Has anyone found that podding your DC leads to them getting charged by an enemy unit & losing their charge bonus the next turn?

 

0b

 

Yep, and that's another reason I don't take the bolters. I actually have no problems with them getting charged. If it's something that is actually dangerous to them, they then tie it up anyway and if it's not, they're going to win regardless. I should qualify that they don't get tied up regularly in this manner because the opponent usually is afraid to assualt them.

An opponent who is afraid to assault DC is either Tau or an idiot.

 

Because seriously, its so much worse to get charged by them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I agree with Grey Mage. DC are much more manageable if you charge them, they lose all their buffs and aren't even half as good. Bolters are okay but even with 10 of them rapid firing against MEQ you'll be lucky to kill more than a couple Marines at best. So it is not like they are going to land and clear out a squad of enemy Marines double tappingtheir bolters. Landing in a drop pod also means that your opponent can run up with something a landspeeder to draw them away from where you need them to be. If you're not going to drop them close to the enemy line then what good are they, it's not like they can hold an objective and score.

 

0b