Drop Pod DC Loadout Question

[tahrikmili]

I agree with Grey Mage. DC are much more manageable if you charge them, they lose all their buffs and aren't even half as good. Bolters are okay but even with 10 of them rapid firing against MEQ you'll be lucky to kill more than a couple Marines at best. So it is not like they are going to land and clear out a squad of enemy Marines double tappingtheir bolters. Landing in a drop pod also means that your opponent can run up with something a landspeeder to draw them away from where you need them to be. If you're not going to drop them close to the enemy line then what good are they, it's not like they can hold an objective and score.

 

0b :)

 

20 BS4 S4 AP4 Bolter shots against T4 3+ MEQ is on average 13,33 hits, 8,88 wounds before armor saves, 2,96 wounds after armor saves. Killing off 3 marines on the turn you drop will mean between 6 to 12 less attacks against you during the opponent's turn.

 

With he CCWs you will make 10 extra WS4 S4 I4 attacks (yes, you will get charged when deploying out of a Drop Pod) which means 6,66 wounds before armor saves and 2,22 wounds after armor saves. But you also suffer 6 to 12 more attacks from the enemy which means something between 4,00 - 8,00 wounds suffered before armor saves and 1,33 - 2,66 extra wounds suffered after armor saves.

 

So with Bolters you come down and kill 2,96 extra enemies.

 

With the CCW you come down, get charged.. The extra CCWs kill 2,22 enemies but the enemies you didn't kill on the turn you deployed will kill between 1,33-2,66 of your men.

 

So overall, in the first round, by taking Bolters you kill 0,74 more enemies and suffer between 1,33-2,66 less casualties.

 

EDIT: I realized I didn't account for the Bolt Pistols on the DC for the CCW squad. I probably should've accounted for getting shot at as well. OK maybe this is all a bit too situational.

[Isryion]

EDIT: I realized I didn't account for the Bolt Pistols on the DC for the CCW squad. I probably should've accounted for getting shot at as well. OK maybe this is all a bit too situational.

 

Exactly what I've been saying. People tend to pretend the bolter debate is bolter vs. completely unarmed DC. It's not and thus bolters are only marginally better, especially if you are using DC for what they are supposed to be for. If you're finding bolters better all the time, then you're far better off with a different unit. (I'm sounding like a broken record, now!)

 

As for Grey Mage and BlackOrange. If someone assaults DC, you're right, they're better off, but it doesn't mean they're going to win. In fact, you're still probably hitting them with 3 attacks p/model and their still have FNP. So in the right circumstance, if they charge in their turn, they have given you an extra turn of combat, albeit a bit of a reduced one.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If the DC is armed with bolters & are charged then it's only 2 attacks each... So you are losing 10 attacks right off the bat. I would much rather have the extra attacks in close combat hitting on 3+ with rerolls & wounding on 3+ with rerolls. The easiest DC unit to kite around is one that arrives via drop pod since it gives the opponent a turn to react. If you're shooting bolters and not charging you're doing something wrong in my opinion. Just take a squad of tactical Marines and save the points. The only DC worth arming with bolters are those swinging a power fist or thunder hammer.

 

0b ;)

[Isryion]

If the DC is armed with bolters & are charged then it's only 2 attacks each... So you are losing 10 attacks right off the bat. I would much rather have the extra attacks in close combat hitting on 3+ with rerolls & wounding on 3+ with rerolls. The easiest DC unit to kite around is one that arrives via drop pod since it gives the opponent a turn to react. If you're shooting bolters and not charging you're doing something wrong in my opinion. Just take a squad of tactical Marines and save the points. The only DC worth arming with bolters are those swinging a power fist or thunder hammer.

 

0b :D

 

Yep, what I've been saying all along regarding Bolters! I was just commenting on your agreement with Grey Mage.

 

The Drop Pod has worked OK for me, and really unless you are bringing DC in a LR, they always have a turn to react since they know where your Razorback/rhino is, too.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I run mine in a Stormraven and so far that has been working okay.

 

0b :D

[Zealadin]

EDIT: I realized I didn't account for the Bolt Pistols on the DC for the CCW squad. I probably should've accounted for getting shot at as well. OK maybe this is all a bit too situational.

 

Exactly what I've been saying. People tend to pretend the bolter debate is bolter vs. completely unarmed DC. It's not and thus bolters are only marginally better, especially if you are using DC for what they are supposed to be for. If you're finding bolters better all the time, then you're far better off with a different unit. (I'm sounding like a broken record, now!)

 

As for Grey Mage and BlackOrange. If someone assaults DC, you're right, they're better off, but it doesn't mean they're going to win. In fact, you're still probably hitting them with 3 attacks p/model and their still have FNP. So in the right circumstance, if they charge in their turn, they have given you an extra turn of combat, albeit a bit of a reduced one.

 

Good ole situational logic.

You do sound like a broken record. I even had to login just to reply because despite what people are saying, you still don't seem to be actually comprehending the counter arguement.

DC are relentless, saying that bolters are a waste when they are the only reason for having the relentless rule is kinda dense to say the least. As is such comments as "if you use DC this way your better with a different unit". What a falacy. Like honestly? Spare us the dribble.

No other unit can move and shoot 24" with a bolter, or rapid fire then charge.

 

Anyway to the arguement at hand. If you play total noobs (or yourself) who you can guarantee a charge against, then yes the BP's are better.

However, considering the fact that a squad of DC (8-9) with Reclusiarch with 3 power weapons (or 2 and a fist) will with reasonable rolls on the charge totally wipe out your opponents MEQ squad its really not all that valid. I mean sure if you are fighting a squad of 20 MEQ it might be the difference, but your pretty much guaranteed to wipe out almost anything with this unit.

So firstly your facing the rage rule, this means you are probably podding them in, or running them in a vehicle, and most people are not running them in assault vehicles, meaning either way your going to be shot at.

It also means you get a round of shooting in yourself. Now against MEQ this isn't amazing, I mean its still solid, but not great, however against say certain nids or weaker units the option to really weaken an opponent via a bolter is priceless especially considering you have to charge and move towards them. I mean the last thing you want is to get baited into a trap that ends with you watching your DC gobbled up in a charge by another unit.

The ability to always put out the shots at 24" is something that pistols CANNOT deliver.

The option is for your opponent to kite you, which if they are mech'd up is annoying, but if you dropped onto a heavy weapons team or similar the bolters extend your range and possibilities.

 

As someone else stated you are also killing what probably equates to an additional opponent in the shooting phase (MEQ), which means less casualties back, particularly if you get charged, and against certain fragile but hard hitting units it can be a lot more effective.

 

So if we are talking DC in a Stormraven or LR which is as guaranteed a charge as your going to get then yes pistols are better from a single round perspective (damage wise, not necessarily from a casualty perspective) . but realistically its pretty unlikely your going to get a charge a turn, and you shouldn't need the extra attacks unless your running the DC without Liturgies, which to me is kind of strange since its probably the biggest boon you can give the squad.

 

So to use blanket statements and claim people are using units 'wrong' is just blatant ignorance. It may not work for you but it works for others.

 

On a more constructive point I've been thinking of adding two plasma pistols if the squad size allows it for a bit of shooty anti light tank or heavy infanty. Still on the fence about its effectiveness compared to cost.

[Isryion]

Wow, first off, I haven't used the word "wrong." Nor have I used the tone you have and words like "noob" or "dribble." I've tried to couch it in terms of effectiveness and other options, and it's obviously always my opinion. I'm not the only one that thinks so either, even though I'm fine with being in the minority, too. If I've come across as a bully I apologize. I always think it's possible for someone to make use of a unit that I don't or that certain options work better in certain lists.

 

I was done with this discussion, but I just wanted to address a couple of your points, so you sucked me back in;)

 

I agree that bolt pistols cannot shoot 24", and in fact I've used that argument with regard to tacticals vs. assault squads and part of the reason tacticals have a place in our list. But, those are two separate units, neither of which does the job of the other very well. DC do have options that make them slightly more flexible but they're still a close combat unit at heart.

 

Just because GW gave a unit a rule doesn't mean it's effective or should be used to it's max. I'll agree that it's a nice rule for the DC to have. However, if I found my DC getting kited regularly or out of combat frequently to the point where I considered giving them bolters, I'd ask myself if maybe I couldn't find a unit that would be more effective in my overall battle plan. In my plan, DC are really only there to 1. kill things (and, imo, they're only worth their points if they're doing that in the assault phase on a regular basis) or at worst, 2. a very significant distraction, soaking up attention and firepower at a rate that other units aren't able to.

 

As for your more constructive point, I've just added one infernus pistol and one plasma. I haven't had the chance to try it out yet, and I'm not sure I'll like it, especially as they're expensive.

[Zealadin]

Hmm my reply was somewhat a mixed reaction between what you and Orange said, he was the one with the "you're doing something wrong in my opinion" comment. (altho reading another thread he seems to use his in a stormraven which is another story entirely imo, as I hinted at in my post)

I did come across a bit rude rereading my post (sorry happens cause I get emotional about opinions :S) but I think its important to remember that while BP are certainly best for the pure combat killiness role, you can end up in trouble if your opponent doesn't co-operate, which of course is reliant on player skill in the end.

My skills are far from good, so I generally try and add flexibility into all my units where possible, because I often get out maneurvered or out-thought and it gives me the ability to react, which often people don't expect since they aren't used to it with the more min/max mindset you see so often.

 

I'm also tempted by the Infernus but the limited 6" range, and 3" for melta goodness kind of turns me off, I've had the rare occurance where a 12" rhino (or similar) popping capable gun would have been a huge boon to DC just because it can stop people from playing the kiting game, particularly if they get too close.

The cost is again prohibative however :(