This just in!

[Lord Ragnarok]

My Spartan(meaning simply stated) take on it is...

 

1. Emperor a fool for keeping the knowledge Chaos to himself (unless you are a believer that he conspired to make himself a God)

2. Magnus a fool for not listening to his father and allowing his arrogance to run amok

3. Russ a fool for focusing too much on the act and not the actor and not allowing his senses to realize who the real traitors were

[Evil Hypnotist]

The one vision I had of Russ from A Thousand Sons was of unbridled ferocity, the trait of The Emperor he exemplified the most. But what I was delighted to see was how much a bad-ass anti-psyker he was too (whether he knew it or not), his roar being like a volcano in the warp as well as reality. The book shows how this ferocity had it's downside too, with the library debacle, but the SW had already been described as a force suited to a particular role, as most of the other Legions had been described (Siege-specialists/Fortifications/Hit-and-Run/Spearhead). Magnus knew this, as did Lorgar, both of whom should have expected the SW to raze everything to the ground. Also Russ might have well stopped his warriors if their blood hadn't been spilled in such an un-worthy endeavour as saving the library.

 

The Heresy itself was down to The Emperor under-estimating the power of Chaos, an arrogance shown by Magnus. The Emperor had created God-like beings in the Primarchs, he was completely sure that such powerful men would never be tempted by their advances, despite their particular psychological weaknesses and strength of brotherhood. In the end it took the petulance of a son (Lorgar) from the scolding of his father to turn away from his light and begin to plot the downfall of his Empire.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I'm seeing a lot of blame going where it shouldn't. Really, you have to understand the Emperor can't just go *zap* and fix the galaxy's problems. He has to choose his battles wisely to keep the Imperium at least relatively safe. You also have to understand Magnus was screwed from the start. The Horus Heresy, if I remember correctly, was one of the relatively few times the chaos gods stopped fighting their eternal war and started paying attention to the galaxy. More specifically, when Tzeench set his venomous gaze upon Magnus long before the Emperor found the little battle-scholar. I pity Magnus because Chaos chose him. NO ONE but the big E himself can resist the full attention of just 1 chaos god. I don't care how righteous or stalwart someone is, it can't be done. That's why chaos is so dangerous. That's why it's a tragedy... a man with good intentions was screwed from the start. A father who lost a son to an evil he swore to destroy... Imagine how the big E felt. Saddend.

 

You also have to take into consideration that the Emperor is the archetypical good character. He's right no matter what because he is the "good guy" and cus hes shiny and golden. :) I really don't like all these conspiracy theories against him... they just have no backing and no reason to exist at all. I have more to say, but I have to go for now. In the mean time...

 

Love your Emperor.

 

EDIT: I'm the most anti-ecclesiarchy person you can find still loyal to the Imperium. That's why I like the Wolves... very true to their roots. I like the Emperor THAT much to suffer through all the crap :)

[Max_Dammit]

The Emperor has his faults, as it is written in the book tales of heresy. He was arrogant as well.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Marshal Wilhelm: only by splitting hairs and creating scenarios can you justify the TS actions in defending the Xeno library.

remember the shock of the Tarvitz when Lucius used a mega-arachnid's limb for a sword? as using elements of the Xeno is impure? well guess what, if using a limb is impure, consider turnign on your brothers to protect a library of xeno knowledge.

the job of the Legions was to re-take humanity's control of the stars, to purge the xenos. not to pick and hoose what orders to follow.

 

and my statement was meant to say (if it was idiot proofed it would have said) agains the legions of Dorn, yadda yadda.

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

@Marshal Wilhelm: only by splitting hairs and creating scenarios can you justify the TS actions in defending the Xeno library.

remember the shock of the Tarvitz when Lucius used a mega-arachnid's limb for a sword? as using elements of the Xeno is impure? well guess what, if using a limb is impure, consider turnign on your brothers to protect a library of xeno knowledge.

the job of the Legions was to re-take humanity's control of the stars, to purge the xenos. not to pick and hoose what orders to follow.

 

and my statement was meant to say (if it was idiot proofed it would have said) agains the legions of Dorn, yadda yadda.

 

WLK

 

 

I didn't create a scenario. That is what happened.

Russ and Lorgar had the chance to nip it in the bud. "Magnus, that is impure! The whole lot burns!" is very different from passively agreeing to something, breaking a promise, attacking them and then getting your nose put out because you warriors got it in the neck.

 

 

[Max_Dammit]

@Marshal Wilhelm: only by splitting hairs and creating scenarios can you justify the TS actions in defending the Xeno library.

remember the shock of the Tarvitz when Lucius used a mega-arachnid's limb for a sword? as using elements of the Xeno is impure? well guess what, if using a limb is impure, consider turnign on your brothers to protect a library of xeno knowledge.

the job of the Legions was to re-take humanity's control of the stars, to purge the xenos. not to pick and hoose what orders to follow.

 

and my statement was meant to say (if it was idiot proofed it would have said) agains the legions of Dorn, yadda yadda.

 

WLK

 

 

I didn't create a scenario. That is what happened.

Russ and Lorgar had the chance to nip it in the bud. "Magnus, that is impure! The whole lot burns!" is very different from passively agreeing to something, breaking a promise, attacking them and then getting your nose put out because you warriors got it in the neck.

 

 

I thought it was a human world, so the books could be human, but if it wasnt wen they arrive, what then, o yeah we said it was cool so we will just leave it alone and let our brother do some nice heretic stuff against our fathers will

[Hfran Morkai]

The world was selected for cleansing, can't remember if they were human or mutants but the Legions were mobilized against it not as ambassadors but bringers of cleansing fire.

[Hellios]

Well I thought it was a human world... maybe they were no longer 'pure-strain' but something like the squats, Ogryn and rattlings... personally I imagined them as human versions of the Tau air caste XD. Also from what I understand the Wolves didn't get inside the building so how would they know what was there?... Wlves died because they couldn't control themselves... if the Thousand Sons had stood their ground before the wolves but not attacked the wolves would have cut them down... because they lack self control... now maybe russ could control them but he wouldn't have made it in time...

 

Yer and I get the feeling that the planet would have joined the Imperium peacefully... but that Lorgar was already working his plan... creating rifts betwen his brothers... and it wasn't hard with russ was it. As people have said russ is the point and click primarch... all you have to do is face him in the right direction and watch things get destroyed.

[Zynk Kaladin]

The Emperor has his faults, as it is written in the book tales of heresy. He was arrogant as well.

 

True enough, he is human. Though I think we put too much blame on the big E without thinking it through.

[Hfran Morkai]

It was a library, probably had signs saying: "Sssh!" and so on in fifty foot high letters. haha The word of the Emperor was the only one that mattered, not some population on a planet destined to be cleansed and colonised by the Great Crusade.

 

Was it here that Russ also first witnessed the Flesh Change? Or was it later?

 

Magnus knew the Wolves wanted to destroy the heretical works yet attempted to intervene, his fault.

 

Neither Primarch was stupid, I'm fed up of people saying that Russ is. He appears a simple minded warrior to those who don't understand him, to those that do he leads with brilliance, the true cunning of a wolf.

 

Russ didn't mess with forces he didn't comprehend, he knew how to conquerr worlds and that was his way.

 

Prospero Burns will reveal more about the mind of the Wolf King.

[Prot]

One thing, that others have mentioned, that really struck me with the last novel was how well suited to fight Chaos the Wolves appear to be. I mean before the book, I didn't really think of them in those terms, but now they seem almost hardwired to destroy Chaos without being actual Grey Knights.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Prot,

I've always thought that since I read about the 13th Co. (Especially if you think the curse of the wulfen is a defense to the effects of chaos)

 

It also makes sense with how close we are to the Eye. Additionally, I thought in our current codex there was a brief statement eluding how well we fight chaos(I may be mistaken)

[MaveriK]

I'm going to be at Comic-Con today, and try and ask Dan Abnett anything about this book, hopefully about the characters involved. I will post later for an update, that is if I get anything. If all else fails... there is always the photo and book signing from the man LOL

[Skirax]

From a Space Wolf view; Prospero was a glorious slaughter that will go down as a great victory.

 

From a fluff-nut view; Tragedy. Two actually loyal Legions battering each other when Horus advances slowly towards Terra.

[Night Runner]

I'm going to be at Comic-Con today, and try and ask Dan Abnett anything about this book, hopefully about the characters involved. I will post later for an update, that is if I get anything. If all else fails... there is always the photo and book signing from the man LOL

That would be grand brother. Hope you siphon some interesting tidbit out of him!

[jmurph]

Bah, the simpering defense of arrogant traitors and words of slander on the Emperor are sickening. :lol:

 

Seriously, though, in world the Emperor is right by definition. He did not fail and expected his chosen sons to likewise be able to overcome any obstacle. Some could not. Magnus was arrogant and delved where he was warned not to. Just as the ruinous powers desired. Prospero caught the fury of the wolves so that it could not assist Terra and Magnus had to choose death with honor or a miserable survival. And so enslaved his legion to Chaos.

 

Russ wass fiery tempered and did not brook fools nor Chaos. He may have agreed to let Magnus secure the library, but his men saw the heresy there and were compelled to act. The TS could not justify their actions nor did they turn over the library. A promise to a traitor actively misleading you is no bond at all, even to one as honorable as Russ.

 

The TS may have had good intentions. or not. But you know what they say about paved roads.....

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Bah, the simpering defense of arrogant traitors and words of slander on the Emperor are sickening. :D

 

Seriously, though, in world the Emperor is right by definition. He did not fail and expected his chosen sons to likewise be able to overcome any obstacle. Some could not. Magnus was arrogant and delved where he was warned not to. Just as the ruinous powers desired. Prospero caught the fury of the wolves so that it could not assist Terra and Magnus had to choose death with honor or a miserable survival. And so enslaved his legion to Chaos.

 

Russ wass fiery tempered and did not brook fools nor Chaos. He may have agreed to let Magnus secure the library, but his men saw the heresy there and were compelled to act. The TS could not justify their actions nor did they turn over the library. A promise to a traitor actively misleading you is no bond at all, even to one as honorable as Russ.

 

The TS may have had good intentions. or not. But you know what they say about paved roads.....

 

:lol: The Emperor right by definition?! :lol:

He's not infallible. He's just supra-human.

 

If he was, he'd not be surprised by Horus betraying him ~ unless he meant for that to happen and was feigning shock and introspection. :no:

 

I am part way through A Thousand Sons, and so can't comment with soundness on Magnus, but I will say this of your assessment of the SW.

If a Primarch says "hop around on one leg and bark like a dancing poodle", you do it. Unless Russ was going traitor, the SW have no reason to go "You know what Russyboy? I'll be making the calls on this one"

 

Magnus hadn't betrayed the SWs and it is the SWs that got all white-line fever on going into battle and attacked their own brothers. Looks like the Wolves took the traitorous actions to me. :P

 

They say paved roads are easier to walk on than goat-tracks?

[Grimtooth]

This post is directed to Marshal, but I didn't feel like quoting all his BT drivel.... :D

 

First of all, the Thousands Sons were screwing around on Aghoru for no reason other then Magnus' ego and desire for prohibited knowledge (as mentioned, "a prize beyond measure") when they were long overdue to joining Russ and Lorgar in the Ark Reach Cluster.

 

The people of the Ark Reach Cluster are called Avenians and are described as "bird-warriors". It is mentioned that they were far removed from the human genome of their place of birth.

 

It is said, "Magnus had arrived in expectation of acquiring treasure troves of accumulated knowledge in the wake of compliance." There was no compliance. said knowledge is knowledge of a non-compliant world, ergo, to be destroyed.

 

Now, as to the the imagined agreement you said was brokered by Magnus prior to the assault, there was nothing. Magnus took it upon himself to protect the great library of Shrike for his own personal quest of power and knowledge. As Lorgar and Russ were leading their armies to pacify a non-compliant world, Magnus was protecting said non-compliants world's great library. Tells you were his true allegiance lies, with himself.

 

And to further disprove any other thought that Magnus was in any position to command anything in the assault of the Ark Reach Cluster.

 

"It is not yours to save, " snapped Russ. "My Legion discovered this world. It is mine to do with as I see fit. Its people had a choice to join us and live, fight us and die. They chose to die."

[hmk17]

Loyalty is a tricky thing...

 

Loyalty is following the commands of your Emperor, despite not agreeing with them.

Loyalty is holding the bonds of brotherhood before anything else.

Loyalty is being open and honest in all aspects with a parent.

 

Magnus failed those pretty hard.

 

He ignored EVERYTHING the Emperor told him to stop doing.

 

He put off Russ and Lorgar for a very long time; then when he did hold to the oaths to his brothers, he tossed them aside again almost immediately.

 

He hid everything he did not only from his brothers, but from the Emperor as well. What would the Big E have done if Magnus told him about the daemonic pact Magnus had sealed in order to save the legion? There would be no "Don't be doing that again, Champ. Now how bout we go get an ice cream cone?" No ice cream, but probably something similar (though less Chaos manipulated) to what DID happen.

[MaveriK]

I'm going to be at Comic-Con today, and try and ask Dan Abnett anything about this book, hopefully about the characters involved. I will post later for an update, that is if I get anything. If all else fails... there is always the photo and book signing from the man LOL

That would be grand brother. Hope you siphon some interesting tidbit out of him!

 

well, the man is very tight lipped about the subject.. laughed a bit seeing as how the booth/line was an Ultramarine book signing LMAO, but he did mention that the book was going to be EPIC, and that our favorite Space Wolf characters will be featured in his book, especially a young Wolf Guard who likes to carry a single Wolf Claw.... that's all I can get from the man! expect a darker look at our favorite 6th legion, almost frank frazetta like savagery, yet noble and cunning.

[jmurph]

Well put, HMK.

 

After Nikaea, Magnus was not to practice sorcery. Period. Tzeentch tested his loyalty by sending a vision and knew *exactly* what the result would be. Magnus, in his arrogance, ignored the Emperor's warning that practicing the heretical arts would be met with annihilation. Worse, he flaunted it with a daemon message to his father! Thus, the wolves were released (with Custodes in tow, no less!). (As an aside, I think the Black Templars would not have waited so long as the Sons of Fenris!)

 

Magnus was an arrogant fool. He meddled where he had specifically been warned not to. He tried to act with authority he lacked. He thought himself smarter than his brothers and even his father when he was being played like a puppet the whole time. Fitting that his lackeys then become little more than automatons.