Independent Characters and combat

[Hfran Morkai]

Afternoon folks.

 

I played a game on Wednesday where a Blood Angels Assault Squad assaulted my unit of Skyclaws with attached Wolf Priest and Wolf Lord (Mephiston was thrown in as well but that's not an issue)

 

My opponent inflicted enough wounds on the pack (what was left after Mephiston got angry) so each model was taking multiple saves, however he was insistent that my Independent Characters had to have some of those wounds allocated as well. I remembered something about IC's acting as individual units in combat and was confident that's how it works, you swing at the IC or he can't be hurt. However the guy who runs the club also said the wounds carried over to the IC's, upon checking the rulebook we concluded that I was right, the wounds don't spill over.

 

I just want to know if I've got it right, I'm like almost certain but it never hurts to be sure, eh?

[nurglez]

Independent chars are separate units in close combat for considering who can attack them and if they themselves can attack, only models in base to base or not in base contact with anything else and within 2 inches of a model in base to base can attack them.

 

Unless they are with a retinue, but very few codices have those.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Nurglez is correct, an IC is a seperate unit during CC from the determining who can fight steop right up untill the "determin results" step of the assault. This means he can direct attacks directly to the IC and could pile enouph wounds to kill the IC without ever touching skyclaws

[Valerian]

The other fellas answered it already, but just to expound and clarify a bit - each of his units has to designate which of your units they are directing their attacks against. In this case you had three distinct units to target: the SkyClaws, the Wolf Lord, and the Wolf Priest. Any wounding hits that he applies against one of your units cannot/do not "spill over" to your other units, so if he said that all of the attacks from his Assault Squad were being assigned against your SkyClaws, then both of your Independent Characters cannot take any resulting wounds from those attacks (even if you wanted them to!).

 

However, your opponent is completely free to "split his attacks" among your three units, as long as he explains that ahead of time. For example, he could say that his Assault Squad Sergeant and 1 Assault Marine were targetting your Wolf Lord, 3 Assault Marines were targetting your Wolf Priest, and the remaining 6 Assault Marines were targetting your SkyClaws. Just like above, however, if his Sergeant happens to kill your Wolf Lord, any extra wounding hits from that Sergeant and the single Marine that targetted your Wolf Lord are wasted and do not spill over to your other two units (the Wolf Priest or the SkyClaws).

 

Valerian

[Kapitalist-Pig]

Nurglez is correct, an IC is a seperate unit during CC from the determining who can fight steop right up untill the "determin results" step of the assault. This means he can direct attacks directly to the IC and could pile enouph wounds to kill the IC without ever touching skyclaws

 

Frosty I think you have it a step to early. When I read the rules for combat and determining who is in and who is out of combat you measure from any model in the Unit to 2 inches away. Up until attacks are made, IC's have joined the unit. Once the attacks are being resolved they are seperated. I think this is covered in the IC and assaults section on page 49.

 

I also do think everything else has been a correct anwser just thought I might throw this out there to make sure we are all getting the best from the BRB and each other.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Nurglez is correct, an IC is a seperate unit during CC from the determining who can fight steop right up untill the "determin results" step of the assault. This means he can direct attacks directly to the IC and could pile enouph wounds to kill the IC without ever touching skyclaws

 

Frosty I think you have it a step to early. When I read the rules for combat and determining who is in and who is out of combat you measure from any model in the Unit to 2 inches away. Up until attacks are made, IC's have joined the unit. Once the attacks are being resolved they are seperated. I think this is covered in the IC and assaults section on page 49.

 

I also do think everything else has been a correct anwser just thought I might throw this out there to make sure we are all getting the best from the BRB and each other.

No, I had it right. Its why you can target them individualy, they are a seperate unit when determining who can fight (which is when you determine who is engaged with who, if the IC was still part of its unit at this time then you could not target the IC seperately as you could not be engaged with him as he would not have existed as his (or her) own unit yet.) Note that this means being within 2" of the IC does not make you engaged as he is no longer a part of your unit.

[Kapitalist-Pig]

Nurglez is correct, an IC is a seperate unit during CC from the determining who can fight steop right up untill the "determin results" step of the assault. This means he can direct attacks directly to the IC and could pile enouph wounds to kill the IC without ever touching skyclaws

 

Frosty I think you have it a step to early. When I read the rules for combat and determining who is in and who is out of combat you measure from any model in the Unit to 2 inches away. Up until attacks are made, IC's have joined the unit. Once the attacks are being resolved they are seperated. I think this is covered in the IC and assaults section on page 49.

 

I also do think everything else has been a correct anwser just thought I might throw this out there to make sure we are all getting the best from the BRB and each other.

No, I had it right. Its why you can target them individualy, they are a seperate unit when determining who can fight (which is when you determine who is engaged with who, if the IC was still part of its unit at this time then you could not target the IC seperately as you could not be engaged with him as he would not have existed as his (or her) own unit yet.) Note that this means being within 2" of the IC does not make you engaged as he is no longer a part of your unit.

 

 

So I am assuming you are saying at the end of the determining who is in combat step they become separated. Because as I said in the BRB on page 49 it says that the IC has joined the unit. Start at the second parargraph. I think it covers the enitre part of what we are talking about. Specifically the second sentence. Cheers

[Aidoneus]

What happens is that the Blood Angels charge your squad and get into base-to-base with as many models as they can as per the rules for assaults. Next, you get to consolidate any unengaged models into him. At this point, independent characters consolidate in first, provided there is enough room between bases to actually move them into base-to-base (if not, that IC doesn't move). Once consolidation is finished, you determine which units are engaged. This is when ICs begin to count as separate units. For an IC to be engaged, it has to be physically in base-to-base with an enemy model. The IC counts as its own unit, and so will only be able to attack a unit if it's in base-to-base with at least one model from that unit, and it can only get attacked by models in base-to-base with it, or models not in base-to-base with anything and supporting the model in base-to-base with your IC. Furthermore, wounds do not roll over from one unit to another, so there is no way attacks against your infantry unit will ever be able to wound an IC, or visa-versa.

[Kapitalist-Pig]

Actually this came up in a game I played yesterday. If you read how and when you determine who is in and out of combat, ot says you measure from any model that is base to base in the same unit. In the section I keep refrencing it says "when attacks are resolved" that the IC's are treated as a seperate unit.

Or in other words before combat starts you measure to see who is "in" and who is "out". At this point the IC is part of the unit/squad he has joined, because the IC does not become a seperate unit until attacks are made.

 

Additionally, not to fan the flames or anything but if you continue to read that section, it makes some very interesting comments about being engaged and in B2B with a IC. Just to put it out there it says that the IC needs to be in B2B in order to attack, but that any models that are engaged with an IC can attack them. (My friend said that models that are engaged are within 2 inches of a model in base to base or B2B) My friend and I did not go into, seeing that so many different arguements could pop up.

[nurglez]

way i see it, ic and squad charge squad b. only models from squad b who are in btb with the ic or models within 2 inches of a model in btb could attack said ic.

[JamesI]

way i see it, ic and squad charge squad b. only models from squad b who are in btb with the ic or models within 2 inches of a model in btb could attack said ic.

Only models in base to base with an IC and those within 2 inches of a model in base to base who are not in base to base with something else can attack the IC.

 

If a model is within 2 inches, but is in base with something else, they must fight who they are in base with.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

way i see it, ic and squad charge squad b. only models from squad b who are in btb with the ic or models within 2 inches of a model in btb could attack said ic.

Only models in base to base with an IC and those within 2 inches of a model in base to base who are not in base to base with something else can attack the IC.

 

If a model is within 2 inches, but is in base with something else, they must fight who they are in base with.

 

JamesI.

 

Why do you consider the model X (b-t-b with another unit but within 2" of model Y, who is in b-t-b with the IC) not engaged with the IC?

 

I cannot see that rule in the Multiple Combats section BBB pg 41.

 

pg 35 says who is 'engaged':

 

*models in b-t-b contact may fight any models

*models within 2" of at least one model in their unit that is in base contact with any models.

 

pg 49 gives the extra rules for ICs

 

"they (ICs) have to be in base contact to be able to fight.... this means that ICs can be targeted separately by models that are engaged with them."

 

If X is within 2" of Y, who is in b-t-b contact with the IC, is engaged with the IC.

X also being in b-t-b with another model does not preclude him from being engaged with the IC.

[JamesI]

Main Rulebook FAQ:

 

A third bullet point should be added, as follows:

• Models that at the beginning of the combat

(before any model attacked) were engaged with

more than one enemy unit, but were in base

contact with just one of the enemy units, must

attack that unit.

 

Someone in that situation is still engaged with the IC, but must attack the squad.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Main Rulebook FAQ:

 

A third bullet point should be added, as follows:

• Models that at the beginning of the combat

(before any model attacked) were engaged with

more than one enemy unit, but were in base

contact with just one of the enemy units, must

attack that unit.

 

Someone in that situation is still engaged with the IC, but must attack the squad.

 

Ah, I see.

 

I don't have the FAQ. :)

[Frosty the Pyro]

Main Rulebook FAQ:

 

A third bullet point should be added, as follows:

• Models that at the beginning of the combat

(before any model attacked) were engaged with

more than one enemy unit, but were in base

contact with just one of the enemy units, must

attack that unit.

 

Someone in that situation is still engaged with the IC, but must attack the squad.

 

Ah, I see.

 

I don't have the FAQ. <_<

you have the internet, so you should go ahead and get the errata/FAQ, and should do so for EVERY dex, not just the ones you play.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/...019&start=2