LordofDeath11 Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 I mean he gets the Power Sword plus some beefiness and a combat shield. I want to field him for fluff reasons and for the fact there are a million ways to make a cool looking Blood Champion, but the idea of dropping a weapon for only a 6+ inv. save and not being able to do anything about it is just a little bit sickening. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordofDeath11 Posted July 9, 2010 Author Share Posted July 9, 2010 PS, tactically, is it ridiculously stupid to feld an honour guard tailored for close combat and run them in a razorback instead of giving them jumpies? Jump packs are the biz but I'm going to use The Empereo's Champion plus thr Ultramarine Masters of the Chapter models to make my HG and I think they will look stupid with baackpacks, any thoughts. And thanks in advance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2458079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Hiltraud Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Huh? I was always under the assumption that the Blood Champ has a power weapon, combat sheild and bolt pistol? Surely he does. The entry for the combat shield states that is attached to the users arm thus leaving the hand free for the wearer to weild another weapon such as a pistol?? I think it would be a little silly if he didn't have a Bolt pistol - pretty stock standard equipment.... That is what you're asking right? :) Also, yes, I say leave the emperors champ model without a JP, just mount them in a LR or RB or whatever. I'm sure it wouldn't be such a bad thing. :) Yours in Honour and Faith, Chaplain Hiltraud [EDIT] spelling :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2458097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 The Codex entry doesn't say anything about replacing the champions equipment, it just says upgrade to a champion with PW and CS. I would assume he keeps his existing equipment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2458100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Yep, no replace so the Company champ has lots of stuff. Power weapon, combat shield, bolt pistol or bolter, chainsword. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2458107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybnick Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 I agree with what everyone else has said about the equpment the Blood Cham has. As far as decking out your HG for CC, I've only tried it once. I generally feel that it's just too tempting to give them 4x melta or plasma and drop pod or deepstrike them in as opposed to giving them CC gear and razorbacking them in. Either tactic will work fine I'm sure, but we have a lot of other options for beefy CC units. I do think modeling a HG with CC weapons would be a blast though! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2458122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Well from my personal experience yes he and the novitiate CAN take wargear, I made sure I talked this over with my group and that was their interpretation so thats what go with. That could be what your group decided, but it is not RAW. Only Honor Guard may take gear, Champs and Novitiates have their own statlines, they are not of the statline "Honor Guard" Its the same reason a Space Marine sergeant can't take the squad's meltagun or lascannon. If you compare to say the Vanguard, where the upgrades say "any model" allowing the sergeant access to the same stuff the rest have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2458134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordofDeath11 Posted July 9, 2010 Author Share Posted July 9, 2010 I agree with what everyone else has said about the equpment the Blood Cham has. As far as decking out your HG for CC, I've only tried it once. I generally feel that it's just too tempting to give them 4x melta or plasma and drop pod or deepstrike them in as opposed to giving them CC gear and razorbacking them in. Either tactic will work fine I'm sure, but we have a lot of other options for beefy CC units. I do think modeling a HG with CC weapons would be a blast though! Yeah, no doubt, but there is always the option of having two HG units(thank you Jesus) and tailoring one for each. Yep, no replace so the Company champ has lots of stuff. Power weapon, combat shield, bolt pistol or bolter, chainsword. That's pretty rad. So I could technically give him dos'(two) power swords. Perfect for a close combat themed unit. But honestly my main concern was not being able to give him a Storm Shield which I think would have suited his fluff a little better than a combat shield. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2458591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 I agree with what everyone else has said about the equpment the Blood Cham has. As far as decking out your HG for CC, I've only tried it once. I generally feel that it's just too tempting to give them 4x melta or plasma and drop pod or deepstrike them in as opposed to giving them CC gear and razorbacking them in. Either tactic will work fine I'm sure, but we have a lot of other options for beefy CC units. I do think modeling a HG with CC weapons would be a blast though! Yeah, no doubt, but there is always the option of having two HG units(thank you Jesus) and tailoring one for each. Yep, no replace so the Company champ has lots of stuff. Power weapon, combat shield, bolt pistol or bolter, chainsword. That's pretty rad. So I could technically give him dos'(two) power swords. Perfect for a close combat themed unit. But honestly my main concern was not being able to give him a Storm Shield which I think would have suited his fluff a little better than a combat shield. No, you can't give the Blood Champ extra gear. Once he becomes the blood champ his type changes, he is no longer type honor guard, so he can't trade out his bolt pistol or chainsword. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2458594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Looking at other codex entries, it's pretty clear when upgrades replace existing gear - it says "Replace X with Y". For the Blood Champion though it says "Upgrade to a BC with Power Weapon and Combat Shield". There is no mention of replacing equipment and therefore RAW he has all normal equipment plus Power Weapon and Combat Shield. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2458793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherMoses Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 I'm with Morollan on this. I was of the camp that he couldn't because of how the upgrading thing USUALLY seemed to work, but after sitting down and reading the rules to check this issue out I now believe that he can have the extra wargear if paid for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2458832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilmixer Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Yep, no replace so the Company champ has lots of stuff. Power weapon, combat shield, bolt pistol or bolter, chainsword. so why not just give him the bolter every time as whith PW and chainsword he stils get +1A and gets a better range attack <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2458842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haunter! Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 That could be what your group decided, but it is not RAW. Only Honor Guard may take gear, Champs and Novitiates have their own statlines, they are not of the statline "Honor Guard" Its the same reason a Space Marine sergeant can't take the squad's meltagun or lascannon. If you compare to say the Vanguard, where the upgrades say "any model" allowing the sergeant access to the same stuff the rest have. Exactly this. The wargear options say "Any Honor Guard," not "Honor Guard and Blood Champion" or "any model." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2458844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 No a Blood Champion cannot gain further upgrades. Firstly he is no longer an Honour Guard when he gets upgraded he is a Blood Champion, different name and statline. To those that say he could get upgraded weaponry and then be upgraded, I would say no because of the way the upgrades are listed. Blood Champion is the first upgrade purchased for the squad. It omes before any of the weapon options so I am of the opinion that you should not be able to 'go backwards' when deciding on upgrades. In much the same way that you cannot gain additional upgrades for a Libby Dread (its the final option). I feel the upgrade system is meant to be sequential and I think the FAQ supports this with the Libby ruling. Having said that the Blood Champion does retain all of his original gear so has a bolt pistol, combat weapon and grenades in addition to the new gear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2458995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnon Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 I've looked through a couple of codices for reference and my call would be you can't give the champion further equipment as it indeed mentions 'any honour guard' for the new equipment options. In other codices where such things occur and the upgraded model would be able to take the equipment the codex will refer to 'any model'. Since the latter is not the case I don't think its possible. I do agree on retaining the boltgun/pistol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2459211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadGreek Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 It kind of stinks that because of the wording you can actually upgrade the rest of the Marines "better" than the Blood Champion, and the Sang. novitiate is not upgradeable at all. The ONLY argument I could make, and I know it is a stretch, is that, even after upgrading to Blood Champion, he is STILL part of the Honor Guard. The UNIT is the Honor Guard. So, upgrade any Honor Guard includes all members of the Honor Guard UNIT. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2459313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 I'm of the opinion you can upgrade both characters as they are still Honorguard, albeit special types. 0b ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2459342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorisBC Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 nope, you can't upgrade him any further. As has been shown time and again, (libby dread, tac SGT's), you can only upgrade for what the model is actually called. Once you upgrade an HG to a Blood Champion, he becomes that, with a power weapon, combat shield and bolter or bolt pistol. You can't then go and load him up with all sorts of crazy wargear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2459379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 The Libby dread was what appeared to be an arbitrary ruling in the FAQ. As such it's apples to oranges comparing it here with the Blood Champion. That's how I see it anyways. 0b Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2459391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 To be able to upgrade the apoth or blood champion the wording would have to be similar to 'any model'. Its worded like that for jump packs and only jump packs. Everything else clearly says that only Honour Guard (not even any model in an honour guard unit). as a champion/apoth isn't an honour guard they can't have any upgrades other than jump packs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2459512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 I'm of the opinion you can upgrade both characters as they are still Honorguard, albeit special types. 0b :D Then why not give a tactical sergeant the squad lascannon? I'd love to give the Novitiate and Champion better gear, but its not within the rules. Just like I'd love my assault squad sergeants to carry the squad meltagun (since they already give up 1 attack with their fists anyway) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2459525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
undeadfilth Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 I run a LR heavy list and one of my favorite units to dump out is a pimped out HG with blood champion and standard bearer+a couple PWs and maybe a powerfist. expensive? yes. pure rapeage? OH HELL YEAH! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2459544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordofDeath11 Posted July 11, 2010 Author Share Posted July 11, 2010 So I'm still stuck with that smelly combat shield I guess...life ain't fair. Also it seems a bit ridiculous that a Sang Priest can take a multitude of wargear options but the Sang Noviate, who in all fairness is like the Scottie Pippen of Sanguinary Priests(Corbulo being Michael Jordan), can't take jack. Logical...? I think not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2459588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 You need to look up what novitiate means.... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/novitiate Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2459640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 The Blood Champion and Novitiate are indeed still Honor Guard and the wording is not the same as the SM command squad. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/#findComment-2459649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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