SamaNagol Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Honour Guard are Honour Guard. They have their own statline and entry, as do Blood Champions and Sanguinary Novitiates. An Honour Guard unit is not the same as an Honour Guard model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2459659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Gotta love keeping the pistol for the +1A! :D 0b Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2459695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadGreek Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Honour Guard are Honour Guard. They have their own statline and entry, as do Blood Champions and Sanguinary Novitiates. An Honour Guard unit is not the same as an Honour Guard model. Here is the problem I have. Almost every other unit (Sternguard, Tac, Scout, Assault, Scout Bike, & Dev) the Sgt can take Melta Bombs. In Vanguard Vets they can ALL take Melta Bombs. By the strictest interpretation of the Honor Guard entry ALL Honor Guard can take Melta Bombs EXCEPT the DeFacto Sgt, the Blood Champion. "Regular" Honor Guard troops can take a Storm Shield, but the "Sgt" cannot. My interpretation of RAI is that ALL models are Honor Guard because the unit is the "Honor Guard." It just keeps the wargear in line with every other unit in the Codex. Again: Just my interpretation, and I expect to get shelled here momentarily, but there you have it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2460772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Another question - since the Blood Champion is not technically a sergeant he cannot receive Sanguinor's blessing? 0b :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2460796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firedrake28 Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Another question - since the Blood Champion is not technically a sergeant he cannot receive Sanguinor's blessing? 0b :) Correcto. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2460806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zealadin Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 You can't really use the entire squad gaining jump packs arguement as a reason why the Sang Nov and BC can't get wargear upgrades because to put it simply you either buy the whole squad JP's or none, and its not a variable squad size, so of course its going to state 'entire squad' for this upgrade. It does indeed seem odd that a HQ's Honour Guard wouldn't all be able to chose their own specific gear, despite the word Novitiate being used for one member of the squad. Personally I'm a bit dubious about gearing them for CC however, since they are pretty nasty with PG's or MG's in a pod, with a bubble of FNP/FC for nearby units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2460983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 I don't have the codex on me at this very moment however from memory to upgrade 1 honor guard to a blood champion it say he just gains weapons and retails his old gear. You could give him new wargear and then upgrade him and that would technically allow you to do both but you would still have to keep the power sword and combat shield. This wouldn't work with the dang novitive as it says for him he replaces his wargear if I am not mistaken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2461003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordofDeath11 Posted July 13, 2010 Author Share Posted July 13, 2010 You need to look up what novitiate means.... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/novitiate Touche'. But really that just makes his position on the 'Honour Guard' even more of a conundrum, agreed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2461009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zealadin Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Well a Sang Priest is apparently XX (you all should know) points on his own while a Novitiate works out much cheaper. That aside either way he is definately far more than a normal Space Marine, so despite being a Novitiate we can assume he is already a pretty experienced and powerful Space Marine. Also the Sang Novitiate actually has all the same wargear as the honour guard but an additional Blood Chalice, so if you do consider him a 'Honour Guard' he does have the appropriate gear to swap over for upgrades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2461025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue_Cypher Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 People have been mentioning that the Blood Champion is the squad leader. I would have figured the Sanguinary Novitiate would actually be the squad leader. Very minor thing I guess with no difference rules wise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2461031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zealadin Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Hmmm thats actually a good point. If anything the blood champion would be there to protect the Novitiate imo Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2461087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordofDeath11 Posted July 13, 2010 Author Share Posted July 13, 2010 I think the point of the Honor Guard s that they have no real leader as they are themselves traditionally supposed to be attached to/assigned to the responsibility of an already existing HQ character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2461142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 You can't really use the entire squad gaining jump packs arguement as a reason why the Sang Nov and BC can't get wargear upgrades because to put it simply you either buy the whole squad JP's or none, and its not a variable squad size, so of course its going to state 'entire squad' for this upgrade. It does indeed seem odd that a HQ's Honour Guard wouldn't all be able to chose their own specific gear, despite the word Novitiate being used for one member of the squad. Personally I'm a bit dubious about gearing them for CC however, since they are pretty nasty with PG's or MG's in a pod, with a bubble of FNP/FC for nearby units. The point about jump packs was to show the difference in the wording. There is a huge difference between 'Any model' and 'An Honour Guard', as one clearly sets restraints on which models can take the items. Also I believe the BA FAQ points to the upgrade system as being systematic rather than a list to be taken in aby order you wish. Basically, as the Blood Champion is the first upgrade you either upgrade a model then or not at all. Once he's been upgraded he is then no longer an Honour Guard despite the fact that hae hs the same weapons (in additon to the new wargear). I would point you towards the Librarian dread question as my reasoning for this. The libby upgrade is the last in the list and states that they exchange all wargear for xxx. The FAQ made a point of saying that they coultdn't be upgraded further (even for extra armour which is an add on no an exchange), if the upgrades weren't to be done in an order then there would have been no need for this (as you could have upgraded te dread then gone back to purchase other items). Regardless, the rules are very clear. Only Honour Guard may take the upgrades. The Blood Champion and Novitiate, whilst being IN the honour guard unit, are not the same as Honour Guard. There is no difference between some of the arguements here (they are in the squad therefore they are Honour Guard) and me saying that my Tactical Sergeant can take the squads Lascannon. He's in the unit so he must be a tactical marine despite the different name and stat line... On a side note, the squad has no sergeant just like sanguinary guard and as such no model in the unit would be able to benefit from the Sanguinor's special rule despite the fact that some may appear to be higher ranking than others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2461556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 except the wording is different because if you take it for one then you must take it for all, if the wording was the same then you could have a squad where only some of them have JP's. as for the rules being clear, no they're not. My groups interpretation (with NO prompting from me I might add) was that honour guard refered to the squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2461833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadGreek Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Regardless, the rules are very clear. Only Honour Guard may take the upgrades. The Blood Champion and Novitiate, whilst being IN the honour guard unit, are not the same as Honour Guard. There is no difference between some of the arguements here (they are in the squad therefore they are Honour Guard) and me saying that my Tactical Sergeant can take the squads Lascannon. He's in the unit so he must be a tactical marine despite the different name and stat line... If the rules were so clear this thread would not exist. The Tac Sergeant and Troops are listed as "Space Marine" and "Space Marine Sergeant." If they had listed the Honor Guard as "Space Marine" and "Blood Champion" the debate would be over. It creates uncertainty as listed. (Again, this thread is proof) Also, the aforementioned Sergeant is not an upgraded trooper, he exists as a seperate entity. You ALWAYS have 1 Sgt and 4 or more Marines. The Champion is an upgrade that you can take or not. Also, it seems odd that the Champion cannot take Storm Shield or Melta Bombs when the others can. I know he is not the Sergeant, but he is the "leader" of the Marines by Stat line if nothing else. Also I believe the BA FAQ points to the upgrade system as being systematic rather than a list to be taken in aby order you wish. Basically, as the Blood Champion is the first upgrade you either upgrade a model then or not at all. Once he's been upgraded he is then no longer an Honour Guard despite the fact that hae hs the same weapons (in additon to the new wargear). The Dread lets you take all the gear, then says at the end to repalce all of those upgrades with new gear. The BC upgrades first to Champ. Again, if they said at the end of the list (if it is indeed sequential) "Upgrade 1 HG to Blood Champion. Replace all wargear with X" - done deal. Look, I'n not saying I am right. I am saying it can be interpreted 2 ways and wish it had been clarified. The restrictions on the Champ seems illogical to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2461936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherMoses Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 The only thing that really annoys me about this is that I would probably like to give the Blood Champion a plasma pistol since he is going to be in a squad with a built-in priest. Its just as well, I don't think there are any combat shield bits with plasma pistols built in. I'd just have to tell people that his bolter has some really cool special ammo :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2462009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 So basically all we can come up with is go with how your group interprets it and always make sure to have a TO verify your list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2462025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadGreek Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Umm, yes. I think that is what we came up with. :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2462027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 If the rules were so clear this thread would not exist. The Tac Sergeant and Troops are listed as "Space Marine" and "Space Marine Sergeant." If they had listed the Honor Guard as "Space Marine" and "Blood Champion" the debate would be over. It creates uncertainty as listed. (Again, this thread is proof) Also, the aforementioned Sergeant is not an upgraded trooper, he exists as a seperate entity. You ALWAYS have 1 Sgt and 4 or more Marines. The Champion is an upgrade that you can take or not. The problem is the sloppy and inconsistent wording used by GW... Ala the DA codex, where they said that in a veteran squad, they said the Sarge can be upgraded, just because of this same argument. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2462070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitewolfmxc Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Anyone mind telling me why the blood champ has bolter / pistol / chainsword / power weapon all in one package ? that doesnt seem right lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2462838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordofDeath11 Posted July 14, 2010 Author Share Posted July 14, 2010 Anyone mind telling me why the blood champ has bolter / pistol / chainsword / power weapon all in one package ? that doesnt seem right lol yeah, seems strang to me too. I guess technically he couldn't use the boltar as he has a sword in his nad and a pistol, Combat shield in the other. Unless he chose wether to fire his bolter OR pistol/assault using the sword. I really can't get over the fact that a wargear choice like a frikkin' combat shield is forced upon you. I mean he's called the Blood Chamion for Christ's sake and he is made to carry a piddly little combat shield that couldnt block a pumpikin while everyone else in the squad(aside from the Noviate) get's a beefed out super-shield. Balls. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2462849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitewolfmxc Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Anyone mind telling me why the blood champ has bolter / pistol / chainsword / power weapon all in one package ? that doesnt seem right lol yeah, seems strang to me too. I guess technically he couldn't use the boltar as he has a sword in his nad and a pistol, Combat shield in the other. Unless he chose wether to fire his bolter OR pistol/assault using the sword. I really can't get over the fact that a wargear choice like a frikkin' combat shield is forced upon you. I mean he's called the Blood Chamion for Christ's sake and he is made to carry a piddly little combat shield that couldnt block a pumpikin while everyone else in the squad(aside from the Noviate) get's a beefed out super-shield. Balls. its really weird combo even fluff wise (thinking santa outfit with big bag XD) lol what does a combat shield do again ? Us wolves never heard or used one XD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2462859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordofDeath11 Posted July 15, 2010 Author Share Posted July 15, 2010 Anyone mind telling me why the blood champ has bolter / pistol / chainsword / power weapon all in one package ? that doesnt seem right lol yeah, seems strang to me too. I guess technically he couldn't use the boltar as he has a sword in his nad and a pistol, Combat shield in the other. Unless he chose wether to fire his bolter OR pistol/assault using the sword. I really can't get over the fact that a wargear choice like a frikkin' combat shield is forced upon you. I mean he's called the Blood Chamion for Christ's sake and he is made to carry a piddly little combat shield that couldnt block a pumpikin while everyone else in the squad(aside from the Noviate) get's a beefed out super-shield. Balls. B) its really weird combo even fluff wise (thinking santa outfit with big bag XD) lol what does a combat shield do again ? Us wolves never heard or used one XD 6+ invul save. Yay! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2463322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Fluff wise it makes no sense that the Blood Champion is restricted to the combat shield while everyone else can get better stuff. But, rules wise, the Blood Champion is not an Honor Guard anymore and can only take his puny combat shield. I think its an initiation thing. Anyone can survive with a 3++ save, you want to prove you deserve a promotion, go see if you can last with just a 6++ save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2463342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Honour Guard are Honour Guard. They have their own statline and entry, as do Blood Champions and Sanguinary Novitiates. An Honour Guard unit is not the same as an Honour Guard model. But then they said with C:DA a Veteran Sergaent is a Veteran.. even with own statline.. as I sai.. consistency.. :blink: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206071-so-did-we-ever-come-to-a-conclusion-on-the-blood-champ/page/2/#findComment-2463443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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