BA vs Gunlines

[ImperialReaper]

Hey everyone,

 

first of all - I am playing 40k for about 1 year now and did make about 20 games during this year. I started with normal space marines from black reach and then switched to blood angels.

The reason was, that I always just had a gunline standing around or standing at objectives and just fired aways on the incoming enemy. When I had a bit of bad luck hitting and wounding he tied me up in cc and annihilated me. So I switched, because I found it particulary boring to just stand there und shoot happily away.

 

Now I am facing the sam when playing against other marines - just this time I am the incoming enemy and now I am getting annihilated.

 

I usually run between 1500 and 1750 pts.

Mainly 2 hqs - Captain and Recluisarch (those chaplain v2.0 kind of guy) with jummpacks of cause.

Then a 10 man assaultsquad with an sanguinius priest attached and a 10 man death company in a rhino.

Furthermore a sanguinian guard,, a furioso cybot with librarian upgrade (for the wings) a predator with all lascannons and a landspeeder typhoon.

 

The problem is most of the time my units get annihilated on the way to the enemy. And I MEAN annihilated in the way like the rhino gets popped open by a autocannon and the vindicator takes out 8 of 10 guys from my death company. Feel no pain my :).

 

When I try to keep my units in reserves to shock them in later, most of them are killed in the turn after they arrive and are unable to assault.

 

This was particulary painful against Space wulfs with on of those psychers, which can make all terrain in 24" arround him to dangerous terrain for jump infantry. This way you will probably loose a few extra units on aproach or just by shocking in.

 

So I guess I am doing something wrong, but I just cant figure out a way to face with those guniles at the moment.

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

 

Regards

Tony

[the jeske]

well you have a vbad army and as I know a bit of the german play field there is no way your going to have normal games when your list is bad.

 

Dont use cpt , dont use DC , dont use SG . those are all bad units . use stuff that is fool proof and works always and not just in 1 game out of 10 , because if you dont play 6-8 games per day you wont see a lot of games when those choices work.

If preds then two or better three. IF a jump pack build then you take 3 squads minimum and give the support with drop dreads[again never one] . also know that a pure jump pack list while fluffy and "fun" for some people is not the most optimal army BAs can make.

[Tame]

also know that a pure jump pack list while fluffy and "fun" for some people is not the most optimal army BAs can make.

 

On the other hand, there are more than one way to play. Pure or semi jump pack lists can work very well.

 

I do agree on the rest, both on what not to take and what to take :) I'll add that you really need a librarian, his psychic hood will save you many times.

[ImperialReaper]

well you have a vbad army and as I know a bit of the german play field there is no way your going to have normal games when your list is bad.

 

Dont use cpt , dont use DC , dont use SG . those are all bad units . use stuff that is fool proof and works always and not just in 1 game out of 10 , because if you dont play 6-8 games per day you wont see a lot of games when those choices work.

If preds then two or better three. IF a jump pack build then you take 3 squads minimum and give the support with drop dreads[again never one] . also know that a pure jump pack list while fluffy and "fun" for some people is not the most optimal army BAs can make.

 

Thanks for the hint.

But i forgot to mention that - since I played normal marines before and only for one year my pool of models is obviosly pretty limited. This list mainly represents what I own except 5 snipers and a few tactical squads. Of Cause I could declare a few tactical squads as assaultsquads in friendly games, but regarding to the dreadnoughts, droppods and predators I am afraid there is nothing I could field to represent that.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

IMO,

 

Not enough Heavy Weapons and not enough transports. If he is using powers to slow your guys down and mowing them down with shooting, you are just playing into his hands.

 

As the jeske said, the Captain is not very good. They needed to make him more killy and/or cheaper.

 

Have you a list, it doesn't have to be exact, though that would help ;) of the SW you fought?

He might not have a great list but your weaknesses play into his strengths and so he bashes you.

[daboarder]

also know that a pure jump pack list while fluffy and "fun" for some people is not the most optimal army BAs can make.

Optimal doesnt mean only competative, ive got 15 games with the new codex and my all jump list so far and only lost one KP game because A single damned Greyhunter WOULD NOT DIE! over 2 turns of combat, If he had died then he would have been tabled. I also had a game against an ultra competative nob biker allocation list and tabled it aswell. So yes Jump pack armies can be very very effective.

[Zamar]

Instead of reclusiarch with jp and a 10 man DC in rhino, why not take a reclusiarch on foot with 9 DC in a rhino? On the charge that DC will be near unbeatable. (4 attacks each at strength WS and initiative 5 that get re-rolls to hit and to wound)

[Brother Nathan]

after running my ba army against a tankheavy imperial guard army and getting decimated ive decided that rather than using a chaplin ill run a libarian as sheild of sanguinus could have saved 1 outta 3 maries from armour and fnp ignoring wounds. and with the unlese rage ability i can stil have the unit fighting as effictively, and if he keeps guys alive round him then he will be survive longer hat having anextra wound and an inv save. well in theory that is. could you swap out the captain for a libby o even counts as to see if it works?

[lorider2]

Not enough Heavy Weapons and not enough transports. If he is using powers to slow your guys down and mowing them down with shooting, you are just playing into his hands.

 

 

Yep. First off, IG and SWs are tough armies. With a good list in the right hands, you are going to have your work cut out for you basically no matter what! A few things I would say is you need target saturation and long range firepower. I don't like to say that Sang Guard, libby dread, tri-las pred, or 10 DC in a rhino are "bad" units - but they are all really expensive. When used in combination you are going to have a small elite army with little long range firepower. So instead of sitting back and shooting, almost despite what the enemy has brought you are likely going to be saying CHARGE and hoping for the best. I would recommend perhaps drop podding a regular dread and perhaps just 5 DC, hopefully distracting the enemy so you can bring more of your forces to bear. If autocannons and vindicators are killing you, try adding some to your list! The vindi is a bit risky in a JP army, but it can really draw some fire which can hopefully buy you more precious inches.

[thundrchickn]

if you want to keep your jump packs theres 2 ways to play.

 

against mech:

 

take full 10 man with dual melta guns possibly an infernus or power fist. I prefer a fist over infernus but I take power weapon/meltabomb combo personally. Combat all your jump pack squads(usually 3 giving you 6 different deepstrike locations and 6 meltas into rear armor. DoA should get you where you need to be. After you pop the tanks he'll have a full round of shooting at you since you can't assault so I'd take 3 Sang Priests and try to blancket the deepstrike zone. It's effectively doubling your wounds so instead of 30 marines you have 60 muwhahaha. Assaulting with furious charge gives you initiative. Power fist is kinda uselss in these squads. your next turn should hopefully give you a second turn with your melta if 1 he survived and 2 you havent been assaulted. So you melta again if you need too and than assault with furius charge. So you had 2 meltas at least before a charge no matter what happened. If you FC with a powerweapon you can get an early jump on everything but eldar. So your 5 man vs a 10 man will strike first killing a bunch of them reducing his attacking and you still have FNP so life is good.

 

against dudes:

 

Deepstrike near cover. Run into cover. Staying in 10 man groups is usually better here because tree cover is sparse for 6 five mans. combat squading will reduce how many squads can get hit. If he's determined to kill a squad. he could shoot a couple of his squads into 1 of your 5 mans leaving a few completely unshot (SP???) at. Jump out of cover taking dangerous terrain test with FNP and assault.

 

if you want to get rid of the jumpack army you could do a transport army. Rhinos will only be 20 points because of the discount from assault troops and a razorback would give you a free weapon. I personally have 3 razorbacks and a rhino for my command squad. you can barrel 12 inches and still fire you razorback weapons ( assault cannons are god) effectibely covering half the distance of the leftover battelfield in a normal pitch battle putting you in charge range. a rhino can go 18 since it doesn't have a weapon. Then you can hope they blow up you rhinos forcing your guys out. Since they didn't disembark on the turn you want to assault you can assault ( normal transports can be assaulted out of unless you disembark the turn before. Most people don't realize if they leave you alone in your transport we cant assault on our next turn :) Then you do your assaults followed by win.

 

 

-FNP is awesome

-Power weapons on furious charging unit is awesome.

-all of our movement (either rhino blitz or combat squad deep strike) are good if you do them right although your meltas could miss and you give your enemy a round attacking deep striking negating your furious charge bonus.

-baal preds aren't as useful against marines but decimate xenos all day.

-fast vehicles...nuf said

 

have fun punishing the enemy

[ImperialReaper]

Why exaclty is a captain a bad unit?

 

I have gone through a few armylists now and I have seen most of the players choosing those special character models like Dante and Mephiston.

 

Ok - Mephiston is awsome, he really kicks the enemys bottom but he costs 250pts and yo cannot change any equippment.

 

I thaught with a captain you geht high WS, Initiative , as well as 3 livepoints and attacks for just 100pts. You also can equipp him to fit any task you could give him. So I dont really see why he is a bad deal?

[JamesI]

Because a Reclusiarch for only slightly more points is a better value. The captain adds nothing but his combat ability while the Reclusiarch adds rerolls to hit and fearless to his unit.

[Brother Nathan]

captain fights whilst everything else is a force multiplier. and they probably can be equiped to fight just as well...

[donnyb]

ump out of cover taking dangerous terrain test with FNP and assault.

 

From what I understand, dangerous terrain tests do not allow armour saves, and hence do not allow fnp.

[Valerian]

ump out of cover taking dangerous terrain test with FNP and assault.

 

From what I understand, dangerous terrain tests do not allow armour saves, and hence do not allow fnp.

 

You are exactly right - models that fail Dangerous Terrain tests are simply removed from the table. No FnP, no WBB, no Saves, no nothing.

 

V

[njm3]

You are exactly right - models that fail Dangerous Terrain tests are simply removed from the table. No FnP, no WBB, no Saves, no nothing.

 

You'd still get an invulnerable save, p20, as dangerous terrain tests cause a wound "with no armor or cover saves allowed" (p14), but invulnerable saves may be taken "whenever the model suffers a wound" p20.

 

At least it appears that way.

 

edit: assuming the model -has- an invulnerable save, like a storm shield or something.

[daboarder]

ump out of cover taking dangerous terrain test with FNP and assault.

 

From what I understand, dangerous terrain tests do not allow armour saves, and hence do not allow fnp.

 

You are exactly right - models that fail Dangerous Terrain tests are simply removed from the table. No FnP, no WBB, no Saves, no nothing.

 

V

 

NOPE! you get FNP and Invul save. I quote "on the roll of a one the model suffers a wound, with no armour or cover saves allowed" as this is not a CC attack that ignores armour then FNP IS allowed to be taken in the same way it works against ap3.

[donnyb]

Not correct. It clearly says no armour saves, and fnp does not work if there are no armour saves allowed.

 

fnp isnt used for ap1, ap2 or any wound that doesnt allow an armour save.

 

"this effect can not be used against wounds from weapons that inflict instant death. Neither can it be used against ap 1, ap 2 weapons, power weapons and ANY other wounds against which no armour save can ever be taken...

 

failed dangerous terrain tests"

 

It is in the rules, no argument with that.

[Valerian]

You are exactly right - models that fail Dangerous Terrain tests are simply removed from the table. No FnP, no WBB, no Saves, no nothing.

 

You'd still get an invulnerable save, p20, as dangerous terrain tests cause a wound "with no armor or cover saves allowed" (p14), but invulnerable saves may be taken "whenever the model suffers a wound" p20.

 

At least it appears that way.

 

edit: assuming the model -has- an invulnerable save, like a storm shield or something.

 

I'll buy the Invulnerable Save, but most of your Jump Infantry aren't going to have that. Definitely no FNP though

 

V

[daboarder]

Not correct. It clearly says no armour saves, and fnp does not work if there are no armour saves allowed.

 

fnp isnt used for ap1, ap2 or any wound that doesnt allow an armour save.

 

"this effect can not be used against wounds from weapons that inflict instant death. Neither can it be used against ap 1, ap 2 weapons, power weapons and ANY other wounds against which no armour save can ever be taken...

 

failed dangerous terrain tests"

 

It is in the rules, no argument with that.

 

AH so I see, silly me not checking the FNP rules ok yeah but you do still get a Invul.

[njm3]

right, makes a difference vs. daemons... if you get the "plop them anywhere on the board you want" deep strike mishap rule for incoming daemons, putting the mishap unit of them in trees isn't able to do much good (difficult -> dangerous -> 1/6 fail but they still get their darn daemon save)

 

Unlike mishap deep striking BA w/o invuln saves.

[daboarder]

honestly in 12 games I've had 3 misshaps and 2 of those were by the same unit in a single games......, DoA is golden.

[ovv]

...Then you can hope they blow up you rhinos forcing your guys out. Since they didn't disembark on the turn you want to assault you can assault ( normal transports can be assaulted out of unless you disembark the turn before. Most people don't realize if they leave you alone in your transport we cant assault on our next turn :D Then you do your assaults followed by win.

 

Just wanted to chime in to this part. I suggest that you read page 67 of the rulebook, second bullet point after disembarking, a little better. If the vehicle hasn't yet moved, your unit can disembark and move and assault normally afterward. So assaults after staying in the transport for opponents turn are definitely allowed - just don't move your taxi beforehand.

[Vlad III]

I'd definitely drop the captain, more points you see, but granted Usually I leave a second HQ until later. At that point-value my HQ of choice is usually Dante or a Reclusiarch with an Honor Guard. From there I concur on the 10 man RAS squads with twin meltas and priests and combat squading if a tank line. I'd drop both the SG and the DC. Downgrade the Libby dread to a straight Furioso and pod him, smoke launchers are handy. Also I'm a firm believer in Baal's they can pop transports and will make mince meat of any infantry line, MEQ or not, it's not about ignoring saves it's about forcing as many as you can. My lists always have 2 Baals AC/HBs.

 

Above all else, use cover. Also why I like bringing at least two tanks, they make excellent AV13 shields and with smoke launchers used right that's AV13 with a 4+ cover save (or is it 5+?). You have a 18" threat range, use it, pick your fights and don't stand in the open. It's worked for me every time.