Tanks?

[Captain Denaro]

I'm having real problems making my tanks work for me! Turn 1 my opponent hits them with his various S8 or 9 weapons, at least one shot gets through and that's them pretty much out of the game, with at least crew shaken/crew stunned results until another lucky shot destroys the thing. Surely a Dev squad is not only much more versatile but has much more staying power?

 

This is coupled with my growing disillusionment with my codex force. Everyone I fight - Tau, Space wolves, Guard and in particular Orks seem to without much planning or tactics to literally kick my ass - Orks simply run/drive as fast as you can towards me, disembark and let the pain flow; Tau - stand back shooting and let the pain flow, Imperial Guard - Master of Ordnance and massed tanks (letting the pain flow) and Space Wolves - shoot me up whilst charging forward and (you guessed it) letting the pain flow.

 

If I don't transport my terminators in a very expensive Land raider they get massacred long before they become effective. Teleporting just puts them closer to my opponent and helpless on the turn they arrive (as I have to run them into some sort of open order to prevent a well placed shot taking them all out) and that's if they arrive at all. Same for my drop pods.

 

After each game I think back and analyise what went wrong and I can see that I'm no tactical genuis but the stats my opponents are rhyming off to me seem to make my "superhumans" warriors look more like snotlings.

 

Also, from reading this site quite regularly everyone here seems to be having field days with their C:SM.

 

Any tips?

[pattison]

You seem like to get it.

Playing Codex Marines is the hard way to make it.

All of my opponents agree that nowadays we have several armies that are way more potent than ours, and that Codex Marines need indeed to be played carefully, smartly and very tactically. You can mess up your whole plan by misplacing a model by 0,5 inch.

For me it's especially demotivating to play against wolves or other 'we are also marines just better than you' armies.

But all in all I don't lose too often and I am always happy for draws when I can get back to the game from a lost situation.

 

My personal opinion is that Codex Marines are not really capable to make an assault oriented force.

So you'll have to shoot, and your tanks are very needed for that, and as is you have to protect them.

Letting your opponent hit them with various S8 and S9 weapons in turn 1 is a tactical mistake.

Letting your opponent assault them without any intervention is a tactical mistake too.

First of all if your opponent begins deployment and you see that he has S8 and S9 weapons lined up ready to bust your tanks, don't make him a favour.

Bottom line you should try to get cover against them. Ideally you can block line of sight from those guys and target other units with your tanks.

If you're really pressurized by their presence you can still keep your valued stuff in reserve and see how things are when you come in.

Tanks are -in most of the cases- kept behind to just shoot and shoot, but you'll have to think about a counter-assault unit that can intervene when someone's coming to punch cour tanks' arse. Yes, those lads will die, and speedbumping is something that shows the weaknesses of Codex Marines very well, as it's more like a pathetic effort to delay being eaten alive by an uber CC unit, but it's necessary to give your tanks a chance to move away or to get some mobile reinforcement (speeders?) and shoot those bastards to death.

 

You don't transport your termies in a 'very expensive land raider' and I don't either. I don't field terminators at all.

Because if you don't pay that 250ish points for the LR then very soon the 200 pts paid for the termies is going to be 'very expensive'.

Termies without a transport need nothing else just massed small arms fire and they die. Who cares if it's 2+? Out of 20-30 rolls you'll surely have a couple of 1s. I personally like the look of the termies and that's where the story ends. I don't field them, they can also look good on the shelf...

 

Codex Marines are superhumans gamewise in only 2 aspects IMHO: 3+ save and BS4.

Oh and they're sitting in a tin can in most of the cases.

You have to make something out of these things.

We're not eldars, we fight straight & with honour. Even when we get mashed :)

[Captain Idaho]

If your tanks are dying, you could do what I do and use my own vehicles to shield eachother from LOS and provide cover saves, when the terrain doesn't permit it.

 

What sorts of army lists do you take, so we can analyse what's going wrong?

[Jackelope King]

How many and which tanks do you have on the field at what points value.

[smurf_m4n]

well this seems a big problem (obviously), as without your tanks you have all that strength 8 and 9 aiming at you independant characters. :)

 

So what i would suggest is that you try and thin out the fire your opponent is directing, maybe deploy your tanks to one side, ready to rush in and shoot him later or drop off troops to hit him up close. When moving your tanks i would strongly urge you to remember that you have smoke launchers on just about all your tanks.

 

The only tanks i have are a land raider and a rhino/razorback, so i don't have much advice which i have tested, but i regularly play against tau and railguns struggle to get through my land raider every time. The best thing you could do is to give your opponent fewest opportunities as is possible while getting close, and tie up those nasty shooters in close combat.

 

If you could give me a list of your tanks then i could maybe give you more help, but if you have a land raider, then you want to load it with some nasty close combat unit and munch his shooters to peices, i usually find that just 4 terminators with chainfists and a seargent will be more than capable of clearing away tanks and killing whole squads in a turn. as for the light transports (rhino and razorback) i suggest keeping it out of line of sight if possible, if not then try and get cover and pop the smoke launchers when crossing open ground.

 

Another thing which might be fun to note would be the chapter tactics of korsarro kahn, which allows all dedicated transports to outflank. Which is always funny to see a land raider full of terminators show up behind your opponents vehicles or heavy weapons and spew up some terminators with chainfists to carve up anything which gets you annoyed. :P

[DarkGuard]

As many other people have said, how many tanks are running? I normally run at least 7 vehicles, 8 if being more competitive and not using Scouts. None of these Land Raiders. Yet most normally survive most games due to a combination of luck, clever positioning and target saturation. You throw a wall of AV13 and AV11 then you're opponent doesn't know what to shoot at first. That Vindicator that can kill his best unit in one shot? Or that Sternguard Squad that can do the same? Or that Tactical Squad that can grab a far flung objective? You get the point. Don't play one, two or three tanks, they will get taken out. To keep them alive you need to field loads of them, and make your opponent make a choice.

[Hellios]

Well with two of the armies you mention... Orks and Guard can both do well without being majorly tactical although orks should have a pretty hard time with you armour until they get close... unless it is a shooty ork list but you generally seem to get less of them and because of the numbers involved it often seems like they are working without tactics... but that is their tactic to stretch you out and overwhelm you or to group you all up and trap you in a corner.... Guard again can swarm you with armour or infantry or both... in 1,500pts we are talking over 200 infantry or double digit armour.

 

As for space wolves in general they are better in assault and short ranged fire fights... how ever they may well have less numbers (depending on the type of list) and normally lack the same long ranged punch... Tau obviously normally have marines beat when it comes to long ranged fire power and also they have great mobility...

 

I don't know what lists you or the others are playing but consider against the space wolves and orks breaking the mobility first and depending on what your packing maybe ranged anti-tank they have as well... As for how to survive the anti-tank try and hunker down in your deployment with cover to make yourself obscured but still able to fire with those that need to and remember you can as mentioned use one vehicle to obscure another...

 

Against the tau again Mobility is what you want to target... your transports will likely die at some point but if you get to use them for a turn or two (remember to pop smoke) they have probably done enough against the tau where you should beat them in combat as long as you have beaten their mobility... the vehicles being the easiest... the suits... either assault ramp them with a raider.... or jump out and double tap them from a rhino... remember plasma and melta is your friend... and so are sternguard vets...

 

Guard armies vary so much I'm not even going to think about very basic advice... by the way as you are talking about tactics I figure you are already know this or have your own version... but just in case... I thought I would post...

[chapter master 454]

Tau: they just eat tanks of ANY army, they are known to have the most effective anti-tank weapons in all of 40k without question. However I would general out-shoot them by playing the 'come find me' game. I'd hide my tanks from sight and let them try and roll around onto them but then notice they are closer than they want to be after they nail their target. If caught in a shooting game: pray to go first and try and nail them as best you can before they return fire.

 

Orks: If you have faced what I have faced you will know the orks can just basicly middle finger any shooting army almost as well as tyranids by senting in just two ork trukks and only one needs to have nobs while the other has boyz (it is called a kustom field generator) while the other 2 30 boy blocks with rokkit launchas march on you conga line style. Codex marines struggle however I would wager a telion and dreadnoughts would solve your problem here, nail the power klaw nob nd then reel them in with a charging dread. Rinse and repeat for the other unit. Then just laugh as your remaining points clobber the 2 units they sent at you. If you can't get telion then I advise 3 full mans of assault squads and some sternguards. Use the sterns to bolter blitz the nobs and boyz squads while the assaults do a combined 30 marine charge against one boy squad. If your BA just throw 10 death company with lemartes leading them at them, solves both boyz squads nicely (trust me, they are scarey!).

 

Imperial guard: you don't out-tank imperial guard. Just no. You run up to them, tank shock with rhinos to make them flee then assault their tanks with krak grenades.

 

Space wolves: your better? sorry but I would like to show you my good friends the BA, please meet my 3 land raiders with 10 man tactcals in them lead by 2 sanguinary priests and tycho. For codex marines: drop the bomb with the grand power of Lysander and sternguards. Keep the fire rolling with thunderfire cannons while your tacticals show them how good plasma cannons in troop choices is.

 

Where do tanks come in? where-ever you feel they can be of use. As a player who loves tanks, they aren't durable (and don't give me a lecture on it. A wraithlord is more durable than a dreadnought and it can take 3 lascannons before dying whereas a dread takes one lascannon and can easily die from it or become useless) so you have to be careful. Sometimes you can rely on their AV to protect them (13 and above you should put some faith in, AV12 is more the dreadsnought thing but they are a different kettle of marine). Some people just don't like tanks and can't make them work no matter what where as some can make them work nicely. I personally can make tanks work fine but I will never EVER consider scouts even remotely useful no matter how they are armed but yet I have seen them cause me pain more than once but I can never make them work. Some people just do better with some units than others, it's just something you learn (and trust me, I barely make tacticals work for me XD)

[Bay]

Smoke launcher's, lots of cover, and screening!!! and with some luck, to start first :D

 

I know how it feels to be basically destroyed within the first few turns and having about an eighth of your army left barely straggling to reach their line of massed guns. My IG buddy has the gun line list down to an science and it took me about a 4 game losing streak to finally find an proper game plan and a stroke of good luck to finally win.

 

I can't say much about orks or tau for I rarely play such forces but I do know this about Imperial Guard and Space wolves.

 

Space wolves, regardless of their extra goodies/rules are marines. Meaning that MARINES are marines, anything that ignores armor is your friend or is high strength to negate that decent toughness always works.

 

Imperial Guard, don't like any kind of heavy/ordnance plates in general, this is where frag missiles/whirlwinds/Plasma cannons stand out and shine.

and rhino rushing any kind of gun line is somewhat madness IMO. Oh yeah any 2+ save units also give any IG unit a real pain (H.Guard or Termies).

 

Hope this helps a bit!

[muadib02]

most of the others have hit the nail on the head....the army is not really the issue. C:SM is exceptionally versatile and well structured, but it must be handled well. Use the rules to your advantage, take cover wherever possible. Never let the enemy see you in the open unless it gives you an advantage.

 

as to the armies you may face I can say only 1 thing

 

Space Wolves have many silly options but are in no way better than codex marines unless played in a very specific manner. use this to your advantage. As an SW player I can tell you they will want to get close, and then rely on short range power and assaulting/counterattacking to get the job done. Do Not Let Them! Slow them down, trick them into difficult terrain, move back and shoot.

 

Another thing my wolves have taught me, which also applied to my Space Marine Army, is that enough power armour is never enough.

I play dismounted wolves, i have so many power armoured models on the field that even volume of fire starts to loose its luster, with decent placement and cover even templates arent that much of an issue

 

Anyway good luck and if they keep trying to kill your vehicles...just loose all priority targets.

[spartan249]

Local Superiority. The reason why your tanks are taking a lot of high strength shots is probably because you give your opponents the opportunity to fire at them. Use terrain to cover flanks on your vehicles and visually isolate the enemy force into manageable chunks. This is really the only way to keep the flaccid tanks of C:SMs alive.

 

As for other armies kicking your ass without seemingly trying, it's because the other codexes are more focused in their approach to battle. What you as a C:SM player need to do is to dissect what your opponent is doing, understand the underlying mechanics and theory of their strategy, then use the proper tools in the codex to either neutralize or deny key aspects of their strategy. C:SM is akin to a toolbox of solutions to problems. Picking and choosing what you want out of the toolbox with no regard to synergy or the metagame will result in many defeats with the seemingly flaccid codex. C:SM requires players to be absolutely ruthless when attacking an opponent's weaknesses. C:Orks and C:IG are more like a prefabricated building: Players of the codex can attempt to play around with the codex to get some variety out of it, but in the end, their lists will focus on the thing that the army does best.

 

The best way to win a battle is to first deny them the application of their strength, then to attack what threatens your position on the battlefield the most. For example, Orks pose a very serious problem to marines in close combat. As you say, Orks simply need to ride up close to you and disgorge their mobs into your ranks and you're in a world of poo. The best way to solve this problem is to prevent said orks from ever reaching your position. To do this, it is a good idea to stock up on as many S7~S8 weapons with 48" of range as possible. This gives you a very good chance of stunning/wrecking the ork vehicles before they ever get close enough to do damage to you. However, what happens if you fail to destroy the ork transports even after firing 18+ S7 or S8 shots into the ork vehicles? Still getting assaulted by orks? Best way to solve this problem is to provide the orks with no targets. Mechanization buffers your troops from being assaulted by orks, and rhinos give you the chance to get your flamer templates into ideal positions of attack. Another solution to the problem of luck (or lack thereof) is to make sure your anti-vehicle weapons are on mobile platforms. Land Speeders and Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts come to mind. If a volley fails to cripple the ork advance, then you can reposition and buy more time to continue firing.

 

By breaking down big problems into small problems, then solving the small problems with individual solutions, you start to use the codex as it was intended.

[pattison]

I like your approach spartan249. :D

[templargdt]

Spartan gives really good advice. I think Codex players need to look at the enemy and refuse to play his game. The Ork wants to charge you; make that as difficult as possible through terrain, set up and so on. I've found that Orks are really only scary in close assault when they charge. If you deny them the charge and hit them instead, they are going to lose combat by a lot.

 

The Guard guy wants to shoot you for as long as possible. Figure out how you can close with him as quickly as possible while using your firepower to shut down his artillery. Multi-charge IG units whenever possible. Krak grenades can kill a lot of his Armor and a few Marines will go through a lot of IG troops.

[Captain Idaho]

By breaking down big problems into small problems, then solving the small problems with individual solutions, you start to use the codex as it was intended.

 

Indeed, I like your clinical break down of strategic and tactical game play.

[pattison]

I've found that Orks are really only scary in close assault when they charge.

And Wolves... and BA and nids. And Khorne marines and demons. ;)

 

Edit: sry I misplaced that "only" there... :huh:

[Captain Denaro]

Thanks for the replies and advice; I've analysed my last game again and can see what I should have done to improve my chances - what I've been doing is setting up my tanks with as large a field of fire as possible, to give me as much versatility as possible when firing. I've learnt the hard way already to protect my flanks, but my way of setting up leaves them completely vulnerable no matter what, as I try to maximise their fire arc. The problem is that hindsight is 20-20 - I always learn from my mistakes but have trouble implementing what I learn.

 

The tanks I have in my armoury are; A Predator Destructor with Las sponsons, a standard Land Raider, a Vindicator, a Razorback with TLLC, 3 Rhinos and I've just bought a Predator Annilihator with Bolter sponsons. I'll probably swap the sponsons around on the Predators to give me Autocannon/Heavy Bolter and 4 x Las cannons combos.

 

In my next game I might try the 2 Predators on a flank supported by a Tac squad and customise the rest of the list depending on my opponent. If I keep my Preds to the flank, it should hopefully prevent my opponent levelling all his guns on my on turn 1. The Orcs need more blast weapons, the Tau I think I could try assaulting down the other flank with a Drop pod supported by Dreads, Tac squads or Land speeders. IG I still think I need a miracle, or Telion to yake out this Masters of Ordnance.

 

I also think I've been believing the SW players hype too much, which ultimately applies right across the board - I need to have faith in my own abilities and reading about other players successes with C:SM will give me the lift my down trodden supermen need.

[templargdt]

I've found that Orks are really only scary in close assault when they charge.

And Wolves... and BA and nids. And Khorne marines and demons.

 

Edit: sry I misplaced that "only" there... :)

 

The orks suffer when you assault them because they are only STR 3 without FC. That's not the case for the other examples (exception being Khorne, of course.) So all those examples you listed are still almost as dangerous as when you assault them.

[amberclad87]

C:SM are pretty hard to win with against the newer armies but in the hands of a skilled player they can more than hold there own. To be victorious you need to know what your army's biggest strengths are AND what your opponents biggest weaknesses are. Take tau for example, they are the worst army in assault. They can never beat you when there are fists flying so they rely on keeping you at bay and blasting your face off. If you can get into close combat with the tau then you should win the day no problem. And you don't even need CC specialist like assault marines or terminators, even a combat squaded unit of tactical marines can beat a crisis suit unit most of the time. IG is probably the hardest match up for C:SM. They can definitly out shoot you and can be deceivingly awesome in CC. Just add straken and that massive infantry platoon will tear down anything in the game. There biggest weakness is there armor save. it's awful and they rely on cover to stay alive. Deny them this advantage with template weapons such as flamers and whirlwinds with incendiary missles. With orks you need to keep them at bay with your superior firepower for 2-3 turns before engaging them in CC. Unless they are using Ghazkull then you should have no problem with this. I lied when i said earlier that IG is probably your hardest match up. It's actually space wolves. Basically when someone tells you that SW can do everything that C:SM can do and do it better they are telling the truth. They can out shoot you and are far better in assault whether they are charging you are you charging them. In this match up you really need to be the better player and capitalize on the mistakes they make in game, because if you compare the 2 armies on paper, SW are just better.

 

With C:SM it really requires a lot of actual practice to get good with, probably more so than any other codex. The one advantage that C:SM has over any other is that they have the tools to fit any play style. You have probably heard this phrase before about marines being the jack of all trades and master of none, well it's certainly true. Because C:SM has no clear strength, it becomes more about you finding, developing and perfecting your style of play, and C:SM is the only army that can really give you this.

[pattison]

I lied when i said earlier that IG is probably your hardest match up. It's actually space wolves. Basically when someone tells you that SW can do everything that C:SM can do and do it better they are telling the truth. They can out shoot you and are far better in assault whether they are charging you are you charging them. In this match up you really need to be the better player and capitalize on the mistakes they make in game, because if you compare the 2 armies on paper, SW are just better.

 

With C:SM it really requires a lot of actual practice to get good with, probably more so than any other codex. The one advantage that C:SM has over any other is that they have the tools to fit any play style. You have probably heard this phrase before about marines being the jack of all trades and master of none, well it's certainly true. Because C:SM has no clear strength, it becomes more about you finding, developing and perfecting your style of play, and C:SM is the only army that can really give you this.

You speak from my heart brother, pure truth.

 

The orks suffer when you assault them because they are only STR 3 without FC. That's not the case for the other examples (exception being Khorne, of course.) So all those examples you listed are still almost as dangerous as when you assault them.

As I said I misunderstood the previous post thinking that it's being said that orks are the only scary assault force.