Can we recuit adults?

[Border Prince]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can we turn adults into marines, not only children and teens? I think I remember some fluff about Russ bodyguards becoming the first Fenresian recuits, and these warrior would most likely be veteran warriors.

 

In short do we still posess the adult-to marine technology?

[Sarapham]

Yes a believe so. I think overall the SW have generally older persons that are recruited since they take those that fall in battle, as opposed to promising youngsters like many other chapters.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If you recall from the SW Tales of the Heresy story "Wolf at the door" (I think that is its name...?)

many of the men, prime warriors in good health, died because of the 'upgrades'

 

These men had Russ walking besides them and had met The Emperor. These are massive incentives.

 

Men in the 40K era would not have these two icons as inspiration. I think the survival rate would be lower because of that.

 

Also, the 'upgrades' process is not as good as it once was. Lost technique and technology. That makes survival even less likely....

[Inquisitor Kravin]

I'm not aware of any canon statement that the Wolves can turn adults into marines and in the Tales of Heresy book there is a story which mentions that even under the Emperor's guidance the mortality rate when Russ's adult Fenrisian warriors were turned into marines was extremely high. This suggests that we cannot.

 

As you noted the Wolf Priests/Rune Priests choose from amongst the "slain" (technically severely/mortally wounded). Furthermore Lukas the Trickster is said to have been a renowned womaniser who once bedded three women in one night prior to becoming a Space Wolf - a worrying direction for the fluff to take if he was inducted at around the age of puberty.

 

Conclusion, it's vague and open to a ret-con any time GW feels like it.

[Legatus]

Established canon has Luthor being turned into a Space Marine (or at least an equivalent) at an advanced age in M31. Apparently such technology existed during the time of the Great Crusade. But back then Space Marine creation was also less reliable, as the accelerated rate at which the gene-seed was cultivated to create new Marines made them more susceptible to corruption. In the current day 40K the recruitment process is slower and more controlled, and it also cannot be done if a man has already been through puberty. The Space Wolves background about "mighty warriors" being recruited is a bit of a background conflict (or maybe the fenrisian idea of a mighty warrior is a 12 year old child that can hold an axe). I think the brand new background for Lukas the Trickster can be chalked up to a blunder on the part of the author as well.

[SeanyPrawny]

In that tales of heresy story the warriors were told by the emperor that they wouldn't survive but some did which the emperor is stated as being surprised about so I think its all too possible its just generally never bothered with because its so unlickly it will hold. Some of my chars fluff has em being older warriors when they've fallen and been re-born is it were.

[Godhead]

Hmmmmn, yet Ragnar got some booty before his tribe was attacked and Stryjborn (sp?) and himself were chosen. I realize that anything black library is not exactly cannon, but none of the guys in Ragnar's pack struck me as prepubescent.

[spjaco]

Furthermore Lukas the Trickster is said to have been a renowned trickster who once bedded three women in one night prior to becoming a Space Wolf - a worrying direction for the fluff to take if he was inducted at around the age of puberty.

from Inquistitor K

 

Uh, I think that number was placed at 12 in the most recent codex. Either way an impressive tally considering how well armed most Fenrisians are....

[Prot]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can we turn adults into marines, not only children and teens? I think I remember some fluff about Russ bodyguards becoming the first Fenresian recuits, and these warrior would most likely be veteran warriors.

 

In short do we still posess the adult-to marine technology?

 

Absolutely they can. There is lots of background to support it, well beyond Space Wolves Chapter, and within the chapter itself. There are too many sources to cite, but if you want one 'close to home' there's a story in the codex of what a "man" must accomplish before the sky warriors of Fenris will swoop down and take him to his new potential life.

[Vampyrer0me0]

I have always had the feeling that the wolves recruit a little later in life than the other chapters, which might explain the high failure rate. Also why (at least according to black library) they spend so much time weeding the recruits out even before the implant process, to increase their chances of getting it right.

 

Another clue as to how late in life they recruit is the story of how the Iron Priests are recruited in the current codex. You need to be a master smith when you get to them and still be able to pass their tests.

[Legatus]

Wasn't Ragnar recruited when he first experienced some kind of romance in the Space Wolves novel? Also, at which age would tribal cultures take the young ones into battle? They may be exppected to fight at an age of 14.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Furthermore Lukas the Trickster is said to have been a renowned trickster who once bedded three women in one night prior to becoming a Space Wolf - a worrying direction for the fluff to take if he was inducted at around the age of puberty.

from Inquistitor K

 

Uh, I think that number was placed at 12 in the most recent codex. Either way an impressive tally considering how well armed most Fenrisians are....

 

I bow before your superior knowledge of womanizing teenagers. :lol:

[Vampyrer0me0]

Wasn't Ragnar recruited when he first experienced some kind of romance in the Space Wolves novel? Also, at which age would tribal cultures take the young ones into battle? They may be exppected to fight at an age of 14.

 

 

He may have been recruited at 14 but he spent a year or so at the first camp. He was definately during puberty or just after when he got his implants.

[Bulweih]

In the novels of Ragnar it states that the oldest greybeards of a native Fenrisian tribe don't get older than 35 years.

From that point of view, what we call teens, are young men to them and women for that. In medieval times women got their babies around 14, as life is shorter for them, they start earlier -_- .

Lukas might not have been older than 15 or 16 when he pulled that said stunt, the women spoken of weren't that much older I presume.

 

As stated, in "Wolf at the door", the warriors of King Leman all wanted to become SW, even after the Emperor told them of their slim chances. Leman could not let them down and so they tried. Scores died of course, but the number of survivors even surprised the Emperor himself and he doesn't get that a lot I guess.

Furthermore the survivors were gathered in the 13. company and thus called the Greybeards.

I assume King Leman had about 300-500 warriors in his hall/camp and of those survived enough to form a company for primarch Leman.

 

I guess the Wolves' recruits just come across more adult, than those of other chapters because of the way of life on Fenris.

Comparing a spartan youth after his rise to a soldier and a youth the same age in Athens at that time would have a similar outcome as comparing native Fenrisians to a native Terran.

[Wysten]

Aye, plus it's assuming they don't grow up quicker, by the time they are 12/14, they may well have matured enough simply due to the harsh nature of the planet. Same with people in the wild west, many of them looked old before their time.

 

Then again, it could always be placed down to the mutation not being limited to Wulfen curse and that they probably put more people in at a later age. After all, the new inmates are typically equiped with Power armour as soon as possible, to forgo the automated training excerises that most chapters undergo. Which makes it sound like the remainder of the gene organs are rapidly introduced rather then over a couple of years.

 

I would probably say that the writer took a few creative libarties when writing the codex to try and differenate them more.

[Beef]

What you guys fail to relise is that The Fenris takes 2 standard terran years to make its circle around the sun. Each Fenris year is equivelant to 2 terran years.

 

Around 10% of Russ body gaurd survived the transistion to SWs. A very high figure even by the emps estimations. Sw dont recruit pre pubesent boys like some chapters. The warriors they choose are in their late teens but not fully mature. Humans keep growing until about 18 -19 years of age.

 

However as tecknology has eroded Sw no longer recruit old men any longer.

[Wispy]

reading the summaries for Wolf at the Gate, I'm just going to sumrise that Fenrisians are hardcore, so they're more likely to survive.

[Valerian]

What you guys fail to relise is that The Fenris takes 2 standard terran years to make its circle around the sun. Each Fenris year is equivelant to 2 terran years.

 

However, Beef, this is largely irrelevant, as all time measurement in the Imperium uses the standard Terran Year. The fact that a "14 year old" on Fenris has only experienced 7 orbits around the Wolf's Eye doesn't have an impact.

 

Around 10% of Russ body gaurd survived the transistion to SWs. A very high figure even by the emps estimations.

 

True, but unless I am really remembering this incorrectly, all of the adults that joined the Legions, such as Russ' Axemen/bodyguard and Lion El'Johnson's knights, including Luthor, which were all grown men in the background material, did not become full Space Marines, but rather were more of "enhanced humans", who were somewhere in between human and Astartes.

 

The simple fact is that in all of the fluff regarding how the geneseed and Marine implants work, the candidate has to be either prepubescent or in the very early stages of puberty, as all of the implants work in conjunction with the natural male hormone surge of puberty. If the young man has transitioned into the later stages of puberty toward early adulthood, then the requisite hormone surges and natural growth potential has already begun to slow, or has completed, making it too late for the transitional processes to work.

 

Sw dont recruit pre pubesent boys like some chapters.

 

Not true, allow me to quote from the Space Wolves "bible":

 

The Making of a Space Wolf

In the constant tribal warfare for possession of land, each youth competes to catch the attention of the gods of Fenris. The Fenrisians identify their gods with Leman Russ and with the Emperor himself. The Space Wolves are the warriors of the gods, the chosen companions of Russ, who will fight alongside him in the final battle at the end of the universe. Thus the Fenrisians have become accustomed to the bravest of the young warriors earning a place beside the gods, vanishing from the everyday world of Fenris and going to live in the high realm of Asaheim.

 

Space Marines must be selected young if they are going to survive the difficult transformation from normal human to genetically enhanced superbeing. Young warriors, eager to attract the attention of the gods, fight together in a distinct band called the Wolfbrothers. The Wolfbrothers always fight at the forefront of battle. They are keen to win honour and the respect of their elders. They know that the eyes of their gods are upon them, and they may be chosen to join Russ. This knowledge drives them to acts of extreme bravery, and many Wolfbrothers die in battle before they reach manhood.

 

On Fenris strangers stalk the lands of men. They are a frightening sight - huge, burly warriors with burning eyes, cloaked in the pelts of the Wolves of Fenris that live only on the island continent of Asaheim. In the long halls, tales are told of mysterious strangers who arrive in the depths of winter and challenge the strongest and most boastful of the warriors to bouts of strength and drinking. The strangers always outwrestle the strongest warriors and outdrink the staunchest. Once they have fought every challenger they pick the most worthy and take them away into the dark never to be seen again, Always they choose the young warriors, for only the young can fight beside Russ in the final battle.

 

These same mysterious strangers can often be seen standing on the high ground above the field of battle. Sometimes, when the longships come ashore bringing bands of raiding warriors, the strangers will be watching. If the battle is hard fought the strangers may descend after the battle and choose the bravest of the Wolfbrothers. Often the chosen are on the point of death, but as long as their wounds are to the fore, the strangers do not care. They take the youths away. Some say that they vanish into the lightening, others that a great flying ship comes down to collect them. All know that the warriors have gone to join the gods.

- 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves.

 

Now, all of that being said, I have noticed over the years the the official position of GW on all of this has begun to waver, somewhat. Perhaps it is a sense of political correctness, and that as the company has grown and produced a much more mainstream product, that they have begun to move away fluff and stories that highlight the recruitment of prepubescent boys. They probably have done this on purpose in order to avoid any potential offense, and to keep from raising the hackles of parents and adults who might find the idea abhorrent. This is most likely why our newest codex includes the background material of Lukas the womanizer, which wouldn't have even been considered back in the earlier days of the game.

 

I'm still more of a purist when it comes to the original background material, so I disregard any new junk that doesn't jive with all of the great stuff developed in the foundational years of the game.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Valerian]

Double post, sorry.

[Blitzkreig]

Remember that age of maturity may be different to Fenrisians to humans of other planets. Its on an eliptical orbit, dominated by extremes of climate, forces you to fight from the day you are born basically. A year on Mars is longer than a year on Earth, whos to say how long a year on Fenris is compared to that of Earth? All in all due to subtle genetic changes (which let them absorb the Canis Helix, something no other planet can do) Fenrisians may actually be around 40 in our years before they go through puberty, but are still a teenager in their own terms.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

the tech is gone or no longer used. many of the aspirants the wolves take in are still young 15-24 by our standards. remember this is tribal times where a 13 year old is considerable for a wife, 15 a man 35 and elder, and 40 well we dont expect him to live much longer

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Not to mention....even if they are still 12 or 13 when they are chosen....chances are good most of them have been engaged in warfare for years. In medieval europe for instance...a Squire would begin training at age 6. By age 10 they were able to wear full armor and fight all day long without stopping. So you can imagine how much more hardcore a person would be living on a death world like Fenris.

 

By age 13,they would be considered a veteran warrior and a full adult. Now...we do recruit later then the other chapters more often then not....because we make our aspirants prove themselves in battle...rather then in a bunch of games.But a 10 year old Fenrisian is going to be far more mature mentally and physically developed then say...a 10 year old in our time. The Fenrisian youth has been fighting his entire life,against enemy raiders and beasts,not to mention the planet itself. The 10 year old in our time might have gotten into a scrap on the playground, while the 10 year old Fenrisian has killed men and beasts to keep himself alive. Because if he hadn't he would be a corpse.

 

 

Throughout history,warrior cultures have had what are essentially child warriors. They were trained to fight at the same age that we start teaching our children in school.If you read between the lines,the only way Fenrisians haven't killed themselves into extinction,is due to the fact that we breed like rabbits,and we start breeding early. The biggest thing to remember is that the morality of today,wouldn't apply to that culture,any more then it would cultures in history.

[Valerian]

I largely agree with Requiem. I always think about the young Wolfbrothers (the bands of Fenrisian warrior youths, not the ill-fated successor Chapter) as being much like the young Leonidas from the movie 300, when he was sent out on his own into the wilderness with just a spear and his loincloth. He fended for himself in the harsh weather, and outsmarted and killed a particularly large and vicious wolf during his rite of passage. Just because these young warriors are no older than 10 or 12 years old, doesn't mean that they couldn't easily take off your head with an axe, or run you through with a spear as well or better than a fully mature adult male from some Imperial Guard Regiment.

Valerian

[CarlSkaven]

If there ever was a Legion that could, it would have been the Wolves! 3 words: CUP OF WULFEN.

 

The way a Wolf is made is so unlike all the other Legion! they dont have all the organs a normal marine receives during is growth.

 

The wolves use an unstable chemical reaction on the Cellular level to replace the Osmodula and myriad other implants that Marines go tru during the first stages/years of ''making''.

 

this is why all the other Legions feared as well as respected their abilities. The wolves are attuned to the world around them and the hearts of men unlike any other strand of Progenitoid glands could!

 

Even if death rate were high they probably had the highest one on survival if you take out the Journey Back To The Fang.

 

Making full Wolves Of Fenris out of hardy Adult Fenrisian Raiders would be possible!

 

Some Marines were made of adults even in other legions. They would never receive gene-seed of Progenoid glands. Once they die they leave no legacy in the chapter.

 

Wolves that lived to be adults before becoming Marines would be still a match for any full marine since et fought its entire life on the worst Death Planet and survived...

 

Yes it could have made them the most powerful Legion on the man-to-man espect of war. Put a Wolf in front on any marine and the wolves will beat them regardless of who or what. But with them being the most ''human'' Legion they were prone to human emotions also. Rage, love, care, pain of the soul... Made them also the most prone to be misleaded by passion or honor or rage.

[The Thirst]

As you noted the Wolf Priests/Rune Priests choose from amongst the "slain" (technically severely/mortally wounded). Furthermore Lukas the Trickster is said to have been a renowned womaniser who once bedded three women in one night prior to becoming a Space Wolf - a worrying direction for the fluff to take if he was inducted at around the age of puberty.

 

 

it was twelve women actually