Can we recuit adults?

[Beef]

What you guys fail to relise is that The Fenris takes 2 standard terran years to make its circle around the sun. Each Fenris year is equivelant to 2 terran years.

 

However, Beef, this is largely irrelevant, as all time measurement in the Imperium uses the standard Terran Year. The fact that a "14 year old" on Fenris has only experienced 7 orbits around the Wolf's Eye doesn't have an impact.

Fenris does not uses standard terran years, how could it when the local population know nothing about terra. They are at a barbaric/pre industrial revolution stage. They count there years by summer or winters. A youth of 12 summers would meen somebody weho has survived 12 Fenrision summers making him 24 terran years old. I agrre that some cultures consider a boy a man at 14 or younger but I think the 1 fenrision year = 2 terran years gives more credance to Lukas's back story. I would hate to think of a 12 year old bedding 12 women. As your chart clearly shows the oldest you can be for certain implants is 12 years old. I would rather think its 24 years than 12 (by the whole Fenrision calnader issue)

 

Around 10% of Russ body gaurd survived the transistion to SWs. A very high figure even by the emps estimations.

 

True, but unless I am really remembering this incorrectly, all of the adults that joined the Legions, such as Russ' Axemen/bodyguard and Lion El'Johnson's knights, including Luthor, which were all grown men in the background material, did not become full Space Marines, but rather were more of "enhanced humans", who were somewhere in between human and Astartes.

Actually Those 10% of Russ men that survived the Gene seed implant became 100% SW. The Da were enhanced humans such as Luthor But this was not the case for the SW.

 

My replies are in red

[Grey Mage]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can we turn adults into marines, not only children and teens? I think I remember some fluff about Russ bodyguards becoming the first Fenresian recuits, and these warrior would most likely be veteran warriors.

 

In short do we still posess the adult-to marine technology?

Your memory is correct.

 

However, its also been stated that, and remember this was when the knowledge of how to make a marine was fresh in everyones minds, the success rate was perhaps 1 in 100 warriors.

 

They were veteran warriors, and most of them died to join their lord in the war among the heavens.

[SeanyPrawny]

Actually I believe it was only Luthor and the other pansies that settled for being in-betweeners. Russ's boys took the risk to become propper marines, they wouldn't settle for less.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can we turn adults into marines, not only children and teens? I think I remember some fluff about Russ bodyguards becoming the first Fenresian recuits, and these warrior would most likely be veteran warriors.

 

In short do we still posess the adult-to marine technology?

 

Absolutely they can. There is lots of background to support it, well beyond Space Wolves Chapter, and within the chapter itself. There are too many sources to cite, but if you want one 'close to home' there's a story in the codex of what a "man" must accomplish before the sky warriors of Fenris will swoop down and take him to his new potential life.

 

 

Except a man in this case is still a teenager at best. Have to take it in context of what constitutes a "man" in Fenrisian society. Prior to and during the Great Crusade all the Legions had older men that had been modified to fight as Astartes. They were however, inferior to those who had gone through the full 19 stage implantation process. In addition to a higher failure rate, the modified older humans simply weren't as good as true Astartes.

 

The modification of humans over the acceptable ages was eventually dropped by Chapters.

[Valerian]

Fenris does not uses standard terran years, how could it when the local population know nothing about terra. They are at a barbaric/pre industrial revolution stage. They count there years by summer or winters. A youth of 12 summers would meen somebody weho has survived 12 Fenrision summers making him 24 terran years old. I agrre that some cultures consider a boy a man at 14 or younger but I think the 1 fenrision year = 2 terran years gives more credance to Lukas's back story. I would hate to think of a 12 year old bedding 12 women. As your chart clearly shows the oldest you can be for certain implants is 12 years old. I would rather think its 24 years than 12 (by the whole Fenrision calnader issue)

 

I don't think you are understanding me. Let me try again. Yes, certainly the natives on Fenris probably have no idea about the Terran Year, and its use as an Imperium-wide standard of measuring time. They most likely do count their years by the passage of summers, or winters, etc. So a man of 15 Fenrisian summers would be 30 years old in Terran (our) years. This we agree on. However, that is irrelevant, as the process for creating a Space Marine is described in Terran years, so we can either disregard however many Fenrisian orbits a youth has lived through, or we can translate, either is fine. Simply stated, in order to start the process, the first implants are typically completed when the initiate is between 10-12 Terran Years old. Who cares if this means that the boy is 5 or 6 Fenrisian Years old - the time that he has spent alive and out of the womb is the same. His physical development is the same. He still needs to be pre-pubescent or in very early stages of puberty for the whole process to work. Based on the whole Wolfbrothers bands description that I provided above, those young boys at 5 or 6 Fenrisian Years, have probably been fighting as young warriors already for several seasons, if not a full Fenrisian Year already.

 

I agree whole-heartedly with you about the whole Lukas backstory - it makes absolutely no sense. That is part of the reason why I can't stand Lukas. We've got the same issue with Arjak and the other Iron Priests, who are all supposed to already be master Smiths, prior to accession. It is completely conceivable that a youth is already an practiced warrior, but not a master smith or a womanizer. It is as if Phil Kelly had decided to completely disregarded the established background material with no regrets.

 

Actually Those 10% of Russ men that survived the Gene seed implant became 100% SW. The Da were enhanced humans such as Luthor But this was not the case for the SW.

 

I might have remembered this wrong then, perhaps the SW who attempted the process did become full Space Marines, although that would run quite a bit against fluff on the process that has been established since the very first Rogue Trader books.

[Grimtooth]

If there ever was a Legion that could, it would have been the Wolves! 3 words: CUP OF WULFEN.

 

The way a Wolf is made is so unlike all the other Legion! they dont have all the organs a normal marine receives during is growth.

 

The wolves use an unstable chemical reaction on the Cellular level to replace the Osmodula and myriad other implants that Marines go tru during the first stages/years of ''making''.

 

this is why all the other Legions feared as well as respected their abilities. The wolves are attuned to the world around them and the hearts of men unlike any other strand of Progenitoid glands could!

 

Even if death rate were high they probably had the highest one on survival if you take out the Journey Back To The Fang.

 

Making full Wolves Of Fenris out of hardy Adult Fenrisian Raiders would be possible!

 

Some Marines were made of adults even in other legions. They would never receive gene-seed of Progenoid glands. Once they die they leave no legacy in the chapter.

 

Wolves that lived to be adults before becoming Marines would be still a match for any full marine since et fought its entire life on the worst Death Planet and survived...

 

Yes it could have made them the most powerful Legion on the man-to-man espect of war. Put a Wolf in front on any marine and the wolves will beat them regardless of who or what. But with them being the most ''human'' Legion they were prone to human emotions also. Rage, love, care, pain of the soul... Made them also the most prone to be misleaded by passion or honor or rage.

 

If you don't know what you are talking about, please don't post. Nothing in canon points that Space Wolves have any less special organs then any other Space Marine. The only thing that SW have above and beyond Space Marines is the Canis Helix.

[CarlSkaven]

Actually I believe it was only Luthor and the other pansies that settled for being in-betweeners. Russ's boys took the risk to become propper marines, they wouldn't settle for less.

 

 

wouldnt? more like couldnt! You dont live old anyway on Fenris. Might as well die trying then just dying!

[hmk17]

Around 10% of Russ body gaurd survived the transistion to SWs. A very high figure even by the emps estimations.

 

True, but unless I am really remembering this incorrectly, all of the adults that joined the Legions, such as Russ' Axemen/bodyguard and Lion El'Johnson's knights, including Luthor, which were all grown men in the background material, did not become full Space Marines, but rather were more of "enhanced humans", who were somewhere in between human and Astartes.

 

The simple fact is that in all of the fluff regarding how the geneseed and Marine implants work, the candidate has to be either prepubescent or in the very early stages of puberty, as all of the implants work in conjunction with the natural male hormone surge of puberty. If the young man has transitioned into the later stages of puberty toward early adulthood, then the requisite hormone surges and natural growth potential has already begun to slow, or has completed, making it too late for the transitional processes to work.

 

You are only correct about the Dark Angels.

 

The men of the Order took the advice of the Dark Angles and went for modification, the safer route in order to ensure that they could still contribute to the Lion.

 

The Space Wolves were a different story. The 200 huscarls of Russ demanded that where he go, they to would follow and share in his genetic legacy. The Emperor told them they were too old to receive modification into Astartes. They demanded it still so he relented to let them have it. Of the 200, 40 survived; numbers that impressed the Emperor. Thus they became full-fledged Astartes, not modified humans. We know these 40 as part of the 13th Company, which was created around them. So that's 20%, still very impressive numbers given the lethality the Emperor impressed upon them. A flagon of ale if its not the Canis Helix that pulled higher numbers through...

 

 

As to the nature of basic Asartes processing, that is partially correct as well. Each chapter has its own standards and practices to its selection of applicants. While your statement falls mostly in-line with Codex chapters, remember... we are definitively NOT a codex chapter.

 

Puberty is the assembly phase of an adult human, basic genetic engineering would broach that this is the easiest time to rewrite the basics of human anatomy. Biologically, this puberty begins to slow and grinds to a halt between late twenties and early thirties. Any time after, the human body begins to degrade due to age for still unknown reasons. After a time, anything medical procedure becomes a risk despite fitness and health.

 

 

Now, I'm not saying that the Choosers and the Iron Priests disregard the proven data of success/failure vs. age; but knowing the history of their chapter, they would be inclined to bend the age range if the person proved himself great enough. Look at the fluff on Lukas the Trickster, he was definitely NOT very young when selected.

[Valerian]

Around 10% of Russ body gaurd survived the transistion to SWs. A very high figure even by the emps estimations.

 

True, but unless I am really remembering this incorrectly, all of the adults that joined the Legions, such as Russ' Axemen/bodyguard and Lion El'Johnson's knights, including Luthor, which were all grown men in the background material, did not become full Space Marines, but rather were more of "enhanced humans", who were somewhere in between human and Astartes.

 

The simple fact is that in all of the fluff regarding how the geneseed and Marine implants work, the candidate has to be either prepubescent or in the very early stages of puberty, as all of the implants work in conjunction with the natural male hormone surge of puberty. If the young man has transitioned into the later stages of puberty toward early adulthood, then the requisite hormone surges and natural growth potential has already begun to slow, or has completed, making it too late for the transitional processes to work.

 

You are only correct about the Dark Angels.

 

The men of the Order took the advice of the Dark Angles and went for modification, the safer route in order to ensure that they could still contribute to the Lion.

 

The Space Wolves were a different story. The 200 huscarls of Russ demanded that where he go, they to would follow and share in his genetic legacy. The Emperor told them they were too old to receive modification into Astartes. They demanded it still so he relented to let them have it. Of the 200, 40 survived; numbers that impressed the Emperor. Thus they became full-fledged Astartes, not modified humans. We know these 40 as part of the 13th Company, which was created around them. So that's 20%, still very impressive numbers given the lethality the Emperor impressed upon them. A flagon of ale if its not the Canis Helix that pulled higher numbers through...

 

I assume that is from one of the Black Library books that I don't read. If so, no big deal and I am more than willing to let it go. I certainly don't remember the particulars of this bit of background material from any of the codices, rulebooks, or White Dwarf articles (although I don't keep up with the WD's like I did in the early days either).

 

As to the nature of basic Asartes processing, that is partially correct as well. Each chapter has its own standards and practices to its selection of applicants. While your statement falls mostly in-line with Codex chapters, remember... we are definitively NOT a codex chapter.

 

Sure, we are not a codex Chapter, and do quite a few things in our own unique way; however, the age restrictions and requirements have been fairly well established in the background material (especially the early background material developed in the first decade of the game (from about 1987 to 1997), and were broadly applied to all Astartes, regardless of whether they followed the codex or not. Hell, just go back up to the story of the Wolfbrothers from the 2nd Edition Codex, circa 1994, that I provided above. It was quite clear that at that time the official GW position was that Space Wolves recruited youths, just like every other Chapter.

 

Look at the fluff on Lukas the Trickster, he was definitely NOT very young when selected.

 

That was pretty much my point, wasn't it? In this latest codex, Phil Kelly has departed significantly from established fluff on how Space Marines are created. Fluff that was set for not only Codex Chapters, but also our non-Codex Space Wolves throughout the Rogue Trader era and 2nd Edition, at the least. Since our 3rd Edition codex was nothing more than a pamphlet and army list, and we didn't get anything for 4th, this latest version of the codex is the very first official publication from GW (not including Black Library pulp fiction novels) that has ever indicated that now it has become somehow feasible in the fluff to make Marines out of adult humans.

 

I'm not happy with the sudden change. It makes me wonder, as I mentioned in a post above, if GW has suddenly become worried about whether the concept my offend some of the potential consumers, and has begun to retcon fluff that has been set for over 20 years.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Requiem of the Wolf]

I am still kind of wondering why everyone is hung up on the bedding 12 women at 12 years old. You have to remember,the standards for age and mental maturity are different for different cultures. Hell...Ive known several people who were fully sexually aware and active at 12 years old.men and women both.

 

Now also remember...A fenrisian would be considered an adult by our standards at around 11. with all the rights and responsibilities.

[Adarul Greystalker]

It seems to me that the implied recruitment standards of the background material presented in the new codex are based less on existing material regarding age limits on becoming a space marine and more on the sort of romanticized, viking warrior idea of the "Choosers of the Slain" and what a man must achieve in order to be worthy of selection by the Sky Warriors.

 

Traditionally, space marine aspirants are screened at a fairly young age and recruited into the chapters' military organizations in the way that this might be done by a modern state military. The emphasis seems to be on the relative pliability of the young body and mind, evoking images of soldiers being molded into fearless, superhuman killers.

 

On the other hand, Space Wolves are recruited when they have performed great or notable deeds such that they may be deemed worthy of service to Russ and the Allfather. Fenrisians enter military service for their tribes at a fairly young age (as soon as they are considered to be men, or even before that in some cases) and they tend to die young, so it seems reasonable that most of those aspirants who are chosen by the Space Wolves should be young enough to be close to, if not strictly within, the standard age range of recruitment for space marine chapters, and this is in keeping with the accounts of many sources which describe Space Wolf aspirants and their trials. Of course, it's possible that an older man (of what few there may be on Fenris) could esteem himself enough to draw the notice of the Choosers, which would be in keeping with the spirit of the stories we read in the new codex: When the Choosers come, they concern themselves with the worthiness of the character of the individuals which they scrutinize, not their relative age or pliability.

 

So it would seem that the Space Wolves recruit older men than do other chapters, albeit at a low rate. Like the huscarls of Russ, some meet their opportunity for service well into their years of manhood, and the Space Wolves should not turn them away, nor would any self-respecting Fenrisian man balk at such a chance, no matter the risk. We can assume that also like Russ's bodyguard, more of them survive the process than other chapters might expect, although many must die as well. As to why this is, the most obvious culprit is the Canis Helix itself, which may somehow prepare the older man's body to recieve the implants. This is certainly possible, if one considers how drastically an aspirant's body is changed by the Helix's effects.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm finding this topic very interesting. I like the way that standard procedure is to only allow the very young to under go the modifcations to become Astartes, as the failure rate is untolerably high otherwise, yet in exceptional circumstances a Chapter/Legion may attempt to turn an older human into Astartes, at exceptionally high risk.

 

Fitting that the Space Wolves would risk such a thing, and makes sense that they were always a small Legion, as they have a higher rate of recruits "failing" to become Astartes through genetic incompatability. Also, could it have something to do with the Wulfen, you know the lack of stability and all?

[Grey Mage]

I'm finding this topic very interesting. I like the way that standard procedure is to only allow the very young to under go the modifcations to become Astartes, as the failure rate is untolerably high otherwise, yet in exceptional circumstances a Chapter/Legion may attempt to turn an older human into Astartes, at exceptionally high risk.

 

Fitting that the Space Wolves would risk such a thing, and makes sense that they were always a small Legion, as they have a higher rate of recruits "failing" to become Astartes through genetic incompatability. Also, could it have something to do with the Wulfen, you know the lack of stability and all?

Genetic incompatibility has little to do with it- its the serious trials that they have to make as they are transforming and THEN the years spent as a blood claw that do in most recruits.

[Grimtooth]

For a culture whose life expectancy is 30-35yrs old, everything is going to be done quite early in life.

 

Think about it, midlife crisis at 15yrs old being married with kids and already a bloody veteran of probably a number of engagements. Your father is at the ancient age of 33yrs old and your mom is probably just a little younger.

 

When it is actually thought out, I see no problem with Lukas tapping hot Fenrisian booty all night long.

[Grey Mage]

When it is actually thought out, I see no problem with Lukas tapping hot Fenrisian booty all night long.

I dont think their life expectancy is as low as 30, Id put it early 50's, but I see you atleast remember what it was like to be 14.