What should we do if GW kills the Inquisition?

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I just don't want both of my armies to be nerfed with their 5th edition codices. It's already happened to my beloved Tyranids :'(

 

tyranids nerfed in 5th ed?! are you bleepin out of your mind?!?!?!!! :cuss ;) :nuke: ;)

[boreas]

I just don't want both of my armies to be nerfed with their 5th edition codices. It's already happened to my beloved Tyranids :'(

 

tyranids nerfed in 5th ed?! are you bleepin out of your mind?!?!?!!! :cuss ;) :nuke: ;)

 

Actually, Carnifexes lictors and ravener were nerfed, but overall, all players that were used to playing a "diverse" Nids army (ie with guaunts, warriors, zoanthropes, etc) find the new codex more powerfull. A single tournement list won't easily take your through all oppponents, but the variety of nice stuff you can inflict on your gaming circle is incredible. I'd love the new GK dex to be like the Nids dex with a ton of units and special characters, even if you all of them are "uber".

 

Phil

[Eltnot]

Actually, when discussed in a non-=I=-players boards (ie warseer's general discussion board), lots of players think that the =I= has no place on tabletop. The different chambers militant, according to them, don't have enough presence on the battlefield and the Inquisitors work behind the scenes. There are quite a lot of players that would see us disappear in favor of having the Tau, CSM, Necrons and Eldar/DE getting quicker updates...

 

Phil

I can see their point though. Grey Knights would be involved in very few engagements, and when they were, it's usually only a squad or two (with the exception of one battle). Inquisitors would also rarely take to the field of battle, being more involved in small skirmishes or simply behind the scenes work.

 

Sisters of Battle however are regularly involved in local small engagements and would make up part of the force defending any planet that happens to find itself invaded.

 

I loathe to see an Ordo Xenos codex including Death Watch as fluff wise they will NEVER fight in an engagement that isn't more then one to two squads. The nature of their tasks excludes them from general conflict and the size of their forces limits them to a single squad operating in a given area.

[WolfGuardVortek]

Honestly, between the two =I= codexes, the only army I really feels deserves it's own codex is the Sisters. The others, while undeniably important to the fluff, do not seem fitting as a TT army for the scale the TT game is played on.

[Brovius]

I just don't want both of my armies to be nerfed with their 5th edition codices. It's already happened to my beloved Tyranids :'(

 

tyranids nerfed in 5th ed?! are you bleepin out of your mind?!?!?!!! :cuss :D :nuke: :sick:

 

Carnifexes almost doubled in points cost, and the only thing they gained was a 12 inch range plasma cannon (which is a further 10 points) and initiative 3 on the turn they charge. Big whoop, we strike simultaneously with Guardsmen, when 50% of the metagame is Space Marines.

 

Hive Tyrants got a Strength increase and major WS boost, but still, almost double toe points cost. In the last codex i could make a Flyrant decked out as a hero/vehicle hunter for less that i buy a stock Tyrant in the new codex. 60 points for wings is ridiculous :cuss

Daemon Princes can do the same thing, but are much more survivable (thanks to their Invulnerable save) and are far cheaper to field. 3 wound Warriors are nice, but with the tremendous missile spam going on with new 5th ed armies, they just aren't worth taking.

 

Overall it has a terrible case of 'it looks good on paper'. The only way to win is by spamming multiples of the same unit (eg. Trygons), which surprisingly, is the same thing that Daemonhunters have to do with Land Raiders to be competitive.

 

So yes, Tyranids went from a near top-tier army to being not too far above the Daemonhunters codex

 

 

EDIT: We also had an entire FAQ that ruled against us. Like Tyranid Primes not being allowed to join a unit in a Mycetic Spore like Space Marine ICs can, Lash Whips losing precedence to other wargear (eg Banshee Mask models still strike at I10) and not being able to deploy units normally if they bought a Spore (Once again, SMs can do this). Also, a Rune Priest is nigh unstoppable inside a transport, as he cannot be harmed, nor affected by Shadow in the Warp, while throwing out JotWW against MCs from the fire ports.

The entire FAQ limits the Tyranids' overall tactical choices, and cripples an already stupidly underpowered 5th edition codex (in comparisson to other codices updated in 5th ed.)

 

People see that Tyranids can use Trygons in normal games and scream 'broken', but they die to 1-2 turns of Devastator squad shooting, or a squad of TH/SS Terminators.

[Panzerkopf]

OK, I think I should clarify. The Inquisition will never be squatted, they've been in the fluff since day one. However, I think there's a real chance that the armies may simply stop being supported or discontinued and the discussion should revolve around that.

I always got the sense that the Sisters were a real fringe army. I've seen opponents of mine genuinely surprised to see me put them on the table and once got all but laughed at for playing them. If GW fails to make a profit from Inquisition armies then they would be fully justified in dropping that product. It ain't looking great right now so I'm thinking survivalist. My non-Sisters Inquisitorial task force is already a counts-as Guard army now.

[Inquisitor =D=]

..... I hate where this train of thought is going....

 

Should the Daemonhunters be... "squatted" I'm still gonna bring my GKs to the table. As... Count-As Deathwing!

 

Think about it. Superior blessed armor, wrist mounted stormbolters, awe-inspiring melee weapons. Think about it?

 

=]D[=

[chaplain belisarius]

im just waiting for GW to come to their senses and do plastic sisters (and GK)...id be a very happy gamer if they did!

[ferris]

Indeed they are very engaged in the fluff, but, like a few people have already said, they are a fringe element.

 

I would hope they continue to support them, just to keep a variety. But if not, I hope at least they would still model Inquisitors and GK as supplements to other armies to make things more interesting.

[Brovius]

I won't stand for compromise! I want a full Grey Knights codex!

I refuse to field them alongside their lesser Astartes, or as a filler unit for any other army. I want to use my 3500 points of Grey Knights as their own separate force

[sonofblood]

I think DH are in enough conflicts to warrant some sort of codex or playable choice in some form. Grey Knights are in enough major conflicts that they are a driving force(I imagine any and all Black Crusades, especially Abaddon's + anytime Angron has decided to say hello), perhaps not in the numbers of marines or guardsmen, but they shouldn't be as they are the elite of the elite. As for Inquisitors, I think they should take on a role similar to say an IQ command squad. It seems inquisitors can be found all over the place in fluff and with a retinue could act as sort of a supporting HQ in the back of the field.

[GodwynDi]

I agree with others that I would probably continue to use my SoB for as long as they were still viable, if not past that point just because :P . To those who think they shouldn't have a tabletop presence I ask why the official army of the Ecclesiarchy is not supposed to have a presence? The SoB existed as an army far before they got tied to the Ordo Hereticus, and I would be perfectly okay if that connection was severed as far as TT goes.

 

Otherwise, I would resume collecting Eldar :)

 

Or play more Malifaux.

[Brovius]

Also, to all those people saying Grey Knights should have no tabletop presence, Grey Knights fight in small strike forces, just like Space Marines do. It is very rare for Space Marines to have entire companies fighting, unless it is to defend their home system (eg. Maccragge) or fighting in a large-scale war (eg. the 3 wars for Armageddon). Grey Knights have never had to defend their homeworld, but deployed in large numbers in the First war for Armageddon to drive Angron back into the warp, while Space Wolves bolstered the imperial lines.

 

To say Grey Knights don't deserve to be a playable faction in 40k is to say that Space Marines also have no right to be playable. Grey Knights are just Space Marines, but much better (yes, even better than the Ultramarines, regardless of Mat Ward's OTT fan:cussy). Being so much different from all of the Space Marine chapters, they are actually more deserving of their own codex than the divergent chapters. Dark Angels could easily play straight out of Codex: Space Marines. You get your special ammunition (Sternguard) and your Ravenwing army (by having your Captain on a bike). The only thing you can't do is a full Deathwing army, which is pretty overpowered regardless.

 

Grey Knights don't have the luxury of being 'counts as' units with another codex as easily as all other SM chapters, because tactical marines aren't armed with storm bolters and halberds. Being so much more different from other Space Marine armies, codex or divergent, makes them that much more in need of their own book than Blood Angels or Black Templars ever will.

 

Not meaning to start a flame war or anything, just stating that Grey Knights have more distinct playstyles and weaponry than these other SM chapters.

[WolfGuardVortek]

By your logic Assassin should be there own army. In addition, Grey Knights are deployed against one type of enemies, Daemons. They are deployed in far smaller numbers then Space Marines. They honestly strike me as an force thats better used as a supplement to an existing force.

 

Edit: Those large numbers were 100 Grey Knights.

[mlund]

Without a proper Inquisition Codex I'd have to switch to another discussion board because the closest port I could make would be out of the Imperial Guard Codex. Stormtroopers = Stormtroopers. Primaris Psyker = Inquisitor. Veterans = Inducted Guard Veterans / Survivors / Adeptus Arbites. Regular IG Platoons and Tanks work just like Inducted Platoons, so no biggies there. It's just the Grey Knights that are irreplaceable. I guess I'd have to back off of Daemonhunters and play more of a generic Inquisition - leading whatever forces are available against threats to Humanity that mortal minds were not meant to comprehend (Xenos, Daemons, and Heretics alike).

 

It'll never have that visceral Close Combat Superman feel that Grey Knight bring to the table, though. :( It'll be more like up-gunned Necromunda. :P

 

- Marty Lund

[sonofblood]

Those 100 were all Terminators though. Just because their numbers are not as numerous as generic marines in any conflict(but they certainly are one of the larger chapters of course) does not mean they are not a strong force. They are the Elite of the Elite are they not? Any Grey Knight army should not have a large number, but they should be well equipped and powerful to compensate.

 

And while the specialty of Grey Knights is Daemons, I see them very much being called in to deal with Chaos Marines also and though this is more in line for SoB could be called in to help with major chaos cult incursions.

 

Lastly, if GW does decide to make a new Daemonhunters codex they could very well take the fluff in a new direction and give the Knights a more direct footing in various conflicts or even put out that while they only appear in few numbers they are dispersed all across the galaxy which would put them on the front lines all over the place.

[Brovius]

By your logic Assassin should be there own army. In addition, Grey Knights are deployed against one type of enemies, Daemons. They are deployed in far smaller numbers then Space Marines. They honestly strike me as an force thats better used as a supplement to an existing force.

 

Edit: Those large numbers were 100 Grey Knights.

 

If you choose to interpret my words like that, then Space Marine Dreadnoughts should have their own codex, also. Assassins work independently, not as a full army. Grey Knights do call upon assistance, but only when they really need it. Assassins are deployed to take out a single or a few enemies, and then bolt off before they get captured/killed, not take on Greater Daemons and the minions that spill from the warp, or to take out entire Chaos cults.

A lot of the time, Grey knights don't fight alongside other forces unless they can't get enough of their own forces there in time, or it is a major engagement such as the First war for Armageddon.

 

Unlike most chapters though, Grey Knights are spread out across the galaxy so they can strike when needed most. 3000 Grey Knights scattered over the

entirety of Imperial space means there will never be an incredible amount in one particular assault. Just because they fight with Space Marines a few times, does not mean they should only be supplements to an SM force. Titan legions work with Space Marines alot, too. It doesn't make them permanently attached to the Space Marines.

The Ad-Mech were quite intent on keeping all their Titans to themselves, to spare themselves when the Tyranids came. They are a separate entity within the Imperium, and only work with other Imperial forces out of necessity, as do the Grey Knights. It is too much of a risk to use inducted troops to fight Daemons, because of the chance of corruption that could occur.

 

Grey Knights are much more different to codex Space Marines, even more than Blood Angels are, and are more deserving of a separate codex (not saying that Blood Angels didn't deserve an update, but Grey Knights need it more, as BA could use C:SM. GKs do not have that luxury)

[Obliterator]

.In addition, Grey Knights are deployed against one type of enemies, Daemons. They are deployed in far smaller numbers then Space Marines. They honestly strike me as an force thats better used as a supplement to an existing force.

Grey Knights are specialised towards fighting daemons, but that doesn't mean they only fight against daemons. They would be deployed against any threat when needed, they're still Space Marines after all. If a Waaagh would treaten Terra, they wouldn't sit idle on Titan because hell, there aren't any daemons sided with the Orks!

About Grey Knights not deserving a seperate codex because they're fielded in fewer numbers: in about half of the Black Library books you read, a Space Marine task force consists of only a couple of squads (except the Horus Heresy books of course). Chaos troops are most of the time described as a swarm of cultists, with a couple of traitor marines to bolster their lines. There are other conflicts (Blood Angels vs. Word Bearers comes to mind) where full companies bash it out, but they're the exception rather then the rule.

Game-wise, Grey Knights are the marines that have the most specialised ruleset you'll find. As stated in earlier posts in this thread, you'd be perfectly able to play the likes of DA with a standard SM codex (GW, I'm NOT saying to drop the DA codex!), but GKs have a flavour that you won't find easily in another marine codex. I'm not saying GKs should have a seperate codex, but they should at least keep a seperate ruleset, like they would in a combined Inquisition codex. They should still be able to be played as a standalone army. The fact that they are fielded in fewer numbers then their vanilla brethren is represented by their impressive points cost per model.

[Daeghrefn]

To say that the Grey Knights "only ever fight one enemy" is a very misleading statement. The vast majority of ALL 40k battles involve that enemy in some way-

even the vaunted space marines occasionally become corrupt. GK would also engage any chapter the Inquisition reasonably suspected of becoming corrupt, which would cover battles with loyalists. IG, same thing. The eldar frequently truck with warp spawn in the form of their Avatar, etc etc.

 

In addition to the obviously daemonic (or suspected of daemonic) enemies there is also the fact that a GK unit would engage any convenient enemy they came across, assuming suitable elements were not already available to deal with it. There are many examples in the fluff of Space Marines not joining a conflict until the IG has already been called out and failed. There are simply not enough "elite" forces to run off at the drop of a hat every time some imperial commander gets a case of the jitters. In this regard GK and SM are in a very similar position.

 

To summarize, I agree that GK are more deserving of a specific codex than almost any variant space marine chapter. They are more powerful, don't follow the codex astartes, and have a very unique flavor on the battlefield.

[Oiad]

Grey Knights are specialised towards fighting daemons, but that doesn't mean they only fight against daemons.

 

Because those traitor chapters like the Relictors and the Flame Falcons were only running from goons dressed like Grey Knights. :)

 

Beware Salamander, GKs aren't a one-trick pony, they specialise in hunting SM scumbags who speak up against them and the rest of the Imperium too. :)

[Obliterator]

Beware Salamander, GKs aren't a one-trick pony, they specialise in hunting SM scumbags who speak up against them and the rest of the Imperium too. :)

Which was exactly the message I was trying to bring accross. Guess I failed... :)

[Chengar Qordath]

Grey Knights are specialised towards fighting daemons, but that doesn't mean they only fight against daemons.

 

Because those traitor chapters like the Relictors and the Flame Falcons were only running from goons dressed like Grey Knights. :)

 

Beware Salamander, GKs aren't a one-trick pony, they specialise in hunting SM scumbags who speak up against them and the rest of the Imperium too. :)

In addition to hunting down Imperial forces that are suspected of corruption, the Grey Knights spend time tracking down and destroying Warp-tainted objects, which could potentially bring them into conflict with anyone.

 

Pages 52-53 of the DH Codex list a load of reasons why they would get into a fight with any of the existing factions of the 40k Universe.

[WolfGuardVortek]

Hmm, I suppose i'll concede the point about them fighting other enemies. Although, I remember seeing something along those lines on the old GW site, and thought the reasoning was kinda weak.

[the_forgefather]

I can see it now... The GW cover up for the end of the Inquistion, Grey Knights, and Sisters of Battle: They all went to investigate large social unrest in a far off section of the Imperium. And suddenly they're all surrounded and systematically cut off and destroyed by -the Squats. :lol:

[Oiad]

Beware Salamander, GKs aren't a one-trick pony, they specialise in hunting SM scumbags who speak up against them and the rest of the Imperium too. B)

Which was exactly the message I was trying to bring accross. Guess I failed... B)

 

Apologies, I see I was headstrong, impulsive and misguided. Comes from getting defensive over all the =][= bashing in these forums.