What should we do if GW kills the Inquisition?

[chaplain belisarius]

I hope plastic GK and SOB are coming soon...that would be ace! ;)

[greatcrusade08]

I hope plastic GK and SOB are coming soon...that would be ace! :rolleyes:

 

i cant see it happening this year, but i deifnately think SOBs will have plastics, not sure about GKS but i live in hope

[chaplain belisarius]

faith..we must have faith! :)

[Mortanix]

Honestly though we all know they'd never totally can either of the Inquisition armies, I do feel a lot of the problem though lies in the metal models and the out of date codices making them less than popular. Which ironically seems to decrease the chances for either problem being fixed, for now all we can do is wait and see, other people have waited far longer than Inquisition players, in the meantime my chaps will stay on display and away from the table while I continue building up my csm and daemons for you to walk all over when the new dex appears :D

[Magnus Thane]

If they're dumped you may see an influx of cheap ebay GK's which you can buy en masse and use in combination with another SM codex.

[Magnus Thane]

Honestly, between the two =I= codexes, the only army I really feels deserves it's own codex is the Sisters. The others, while undeniably important to the fluff, do not seem fitting as a TT army for the scale the TT game is played on.

 

Easy to say if you don't have a many hundreds of euros invested in an army... :mellow:

Why not just abolish the SW, BA etc codices then? They're just 'one' chapter out of many?

[Whitefireinferno]

Because the SW and BA dex and mini's have proved to be a cash cow even before the new codexi came out the GK well how do you put it nicely... well they dont loose GW money but they dont really do earn GW monies either.

[Celestin]

In my opinion, if GW just wants to make money, they should release a plastic Grey Knight upgrade pack similar to the DA and BT upgrade packs. A few door upgrades, psycannons and incinerators, nemesis halberds, shoulderpads, heads, and plenty of bling. Then, they should update the Daemonhunters codex to allow GKs to take Rhinos, Razorbacks, and a few other tanks, and possibly even speeders/bikes. Yeah, it would mean having to buy/convert a lot of new units, but that's the point.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

And that would turn Grey Knights into yet another varient marine chapter like the wolves and either angels, I would rather Grey Knights remained distinct and unique thank you.

[Celestin]

And that would turn Grey Knights into yet another varient marine chapter like the wolves and either angels, I would rather Grey Knights remained distinct and unique thank you.

 

Okay, first off then: do you have a better solution to the #1 weakness of Grey Knights? Presently, their lack of cheap transportation and limited/expensive means of dealing with enemy armour is one of if not THE Grey Knights' greatest weakness. Giving them a number of tanks, including at minimum Rhinos and Razorbacks, would fix this. Furthermore, there is only a single unit choice for both troops and fast attack, aside from getting Deep Strike for free for the unit if taken as Fast Attack. The army needs more variety, and existing models is the easiest way for GW to provide that. I want Grey Knights to remain special too, but is it worth sacrificing viability?

[greatcrusade08]

Okay, first off then: do you have a better solution to the #1 weakness of Grey Knights? Presently, their lack of cheap transportation and limited/expensive means of dealing with enemy armour is one of if not THE Grey Knights' greatest weakness. Giving them a number of tanks, including at minimum Rhinos and Razorbacks, would fix this. Furthermore, there is only a single unit choice for both troops and fast attack, aside from getting Deep Strike for free for the unit if taken as Fast Attack. The army needs more variety, and existing models is the easiest way for GW to provide that. I want Grey Knights to remain special too, but is it worth sacrificing viability?

 

Grey knights arent weak, land raiders cost the same whilst rhinos are a little more cost prohibitive.. but when youve got storm bolters footslogging is not such an issue.

 

To be honest a few psychic powers or 'unique' weapons would help just fine.. they dont require much more variety.. simply an update to bring wargear and rules into 5th ed..

i happen to think points are fine, but would like to see an extra attack or initiative or something as base.. (probably hoping for too much)

 

Part of me can see a single dex for all inq armies.. just having limits like no grey kinghts and SOB in the same force etc (just an example)

[Brother Hadafix]

Can't see them getting rid of GK or SoB, Inquisitors could be out though... But who knows?

[Celestin]

Okay, first off then: do you have a better solution to the #1 weakness of Grey Knights? Presently, their lack of cheap transportation and limited/expensive means of dealing with enemy armour is one of if not THE Grey Knights' greatest weakness. Giving them a number of tanks, including at minimum Rhinos and Razorbacks, would fix this. Furthermore, there is only a single unit choice for both troops and fast attack, aside from getting Deep Strike for free for the unit if taken as Fast Attack. The army needs more variety, and existing models is the easiest way for GW to provide that. I want Grey Knights to remain special too, but is it worth sacrificing viability?

 

Grey knights arent weak, land raiders cost the same whilst rhinos are a little more cost prohibitive.. but when youve got storm bolters footslogging is not such an issue.

 

To be honest a few psychic powers or 'unique' weapons would help just fine.. they dont require much more variety.. simply an update to bring wargear and rules into 5th ed..

i happen to think points are fine, but would like to see an extra attack or initiative or something as base.. (probably hoping for too much)

 

Part of me can see a single dex for all inq armies.. just having limits like no grey kinghts and SOB in the same force etc (just an example)

 

Um, what in the Emperor's name are you talking about? Rhinos are NOT available to Grey Knights right now, and while land raiders may cost the same, I completely fail to see what logic you might be using to explain that they don't require more variety. Grey Knights have 1 HQ option, 1 Elites option, 1 option that covers Troops & Fast Attack, and 3 Heavy Support options. That's it. Everything else is Inquisitorial, which is weak on its own as well, which is a huge problem for Radicals, who under the online codex rules are -prohibited- from taking any fast attack units at all, and only get a single heavy support choice.

[Whitefireinferno]

so your method of making The GK better is to make them like everybody else? The DH codex has not really ever been about lets stomp everyones face its been lets stomp Daemon face Sure In theroy they have access to anything but alot of chapters tell them to stick their requests where the sun don't shine so they do not always get what they want. and as for pointing out what the army can get look at necron about the same list of options BUT with a "auto lose" Button built in same with Tau sure there might be a few more options but are they worth taking? NOPE. so at the end of the day the codex from the =I= I would most like to see is the Bolter babes because they are the most different thing that the INQ has going for it in my books.

[Gentlemanloser]

What we should do?

 

Use our awesome minis as 'counts as' for another Marine Codex.

 

I don't want to make a thread about this in the BA forum, but today, for a laugh, I hashed up a 2K BA list (in my usual GK style of play with a small 'elite' fighting force) including some elements I just wanted to see how they'd work in play.

 

I had;

 

Dante

3 x S Guard

3 x S Priest with Jumpacks

10 x Death Company

2 x DC Dreads (with dual Blood Talons)

2 x Stormravens (with Typhoon ML)

 

Really a sort of Dual LR GK list. But better. Much better...

 

The DC started on the Table, as did two SR (loaded with SG+SP and DCD). Dante and 1 lot of SG+SP waited in reserve to Deep Strike in.

 

I faced my usual mates, playing thier usual Eldar and Marine lists, with the 12" long table edge deployment and Annihalation.

 

I obliterated the Eldar, he held on with a WraithGuard squad left on the board by turn 7.

 

I tabled the Marines by the end of Turn 3.

 

It was sickening. Both my opponents had no answer to the SR dropping off thier cargo where I wanted, where they could do the most damage. Dante charging Harlies, and *going first* was a sight to behold. Facing the Marine player, my DCD (after the SR survived a round of people tryin to lay Melta Bombs on it and only losing it's TLAC) hit a squad of 10 Assault Marines with an attach Chappy. FC so I5, I go first. 4 hits. 3 sorry LC reroll, 4 dead. 4 more attacks. 4 more dead. and so one, till the whole squad died before it could respond.

 

First turn, moving 6, then hitting whatever armour my opponent has with 2 x S8 AP3 and 4 x S8 AP1 missile. Things melted. From Tanks to Dreads to Wraithlords. Turbo boosting to set up asaults, getting a 4+ I save and still shooting a TML or AC due to POTMS.

 

At first, people were so shocked they didn't really have any fun. Then we all sat around and laughed at the sheer stupidity of the Codex (Dante and the SG shrugged off so much damage, what with the ever present FNP bubble. My DC killed the Avatar in Close Combat.), that the day actually ended up to be very enjoyable for all parties.

 

So, that's what we should do, if we languish without a new codex. Move on, counts as, and experience the sheer over the top extravaganse the new 5th ed Codexes have bought to the game. While simulataniously lamenting the plight of every army without a 5th edition codex.

 

And I hadn't even used Meph! :to:

[Brovius]

In my opinion, if GW just wants to make money, they should release a plastic Grey Knight upgrade pack similar to the DA and BT upgrade packs. A few door upgrades, psycannons and incinerators, nemesis halberds, shoulderpads, heads, and plenty of bling.

 

Compare the armour of a PAGK and a conversion kit Black Templar to a vanilla SM.

 

You will notice that the only difference between the BT and the SM would be a robe around the waist and the Iron Cross would be panted somewhere on the Templar's armour. Everything else is the same. The Grey Knight, on the other hand, you will see that the only resemblances they have with the SM is their armour is roughly the same size, and the backpacks are similar. Aside from that, everything is different. Weapons, armour details, chestplate, weapons, helmet...

 

Upgrade sprues would be redundant because they would ruin the look of the PAGKs by not including the chestplate or legs, or they would have everything except the back half of the torso and a backpack, which would be a colossal waste of money.

 

 

. so at the end of the day the codex from the =I= I would most like to see is the Bolter babes because they are the most different thing that the INQ has going for it in my books.

 

SoB are IG veterans in power armour, they use the same weapons as the IG and SM, have the same vehicles minus 1 walker and 2 Rhino-chassis, and have different names for the units. Their playstyle is like gunline Imperial Guard or Space Marines, except with a missile-launching Rhino and a Multi-melta/Heavy flamer transport, plus a few penitents in very vulnerable mech suits.

 

GKs on the other hand, are extremely elite SMs that use almost none of the weapons that SMs use. Their bare troops all have weapons that only SM veterans possess, and that's their standard equipment. Special weapons like the Psycannon and Incinerator are far different to the inferior weaponry the rest of the Imperium has available to them. Grey Knights have a completely unique playstyle, a tactical genius is required to bring the army to victory against even a mediocre-skilled opponent. They are always outnumbered, usually with odds of 2:1 or worse, depending on the enemy.

GKs don't have power armour, they have Aegis armour. They don't have Relic Blades, they have Nemesis Force Weapons, which are vastly superior because they are one-handed weapons. They have Grey Knight Terminators, built to be among the strongest close combatants in the game.

 

Plus, SoB models would be far easier to use for a counts as SM army. Grey Knights don't have that luxury. No other army has troops choices with similar weapon configuration as Grey Knights. GKTs wouldn't be useable as an SM Terminator squad, because they have storm bolters, but no power fist. Around here at least, people don't like a counts-as that doesn't even slightly resemble the model it is pretending to be.

[Valerian]

And that would turn Grey Knights into yet another varient marine chapter like the wolves and either angels, I would rather Grey Knights remained distinct and unique thank you.

 

Okay, first off then: do you have a better solution to the #1 weakness of Grey Knights? Presently, their lack of cheap transportation and limited/expensive means of dealing with enemy armour is one of if not THE Grey Knights' greatest weakness. Giving them a number of tanks, including at minimum Rhinos and Razorbacks, would fix this. Furthermore, there is only a single unit choice for both troops and fast attack, aside from getting Deep Strike for free for the unit if taken as Fast Attack. The army needs more variety, and existing models is the easiest way for GW to provide that. I want Grey Knights to remain special too, but is it worth sacrificing viability?

 

Celestin,

 

It really wouldn't take much to overcome the weaknesses of the Grey Knights, and I think that I've done a pretty good job of that in my own Fandex (still polishing up a few things). I've gotten good feedback from many others on the document, so I don't think I have just deluded myself. By simply introducing additional psychic power options, improving a few of the army-specific special rules, and providing good operational mobility via an improved army-wide teleport option - most of the issues that challenged the pure Grey Knights army are resolved. I have been able to produce an army list and rules that make them viable against all-comers (not just against Daemons), while maintaining the right "feel" to the army; they still play like Grey Knights should play. I am sure that GW designers (at least some of them) can do so as well. If not, then I am more than willing to let them copy-and-paste what I made and use that if they want to. Importantly, it can be done without just taking everything from the "standard" Astartes Chapters, like Rhinos, Razorbacks, Land Speeders, or Whirlwinds, etc. We can easily maintain our distinct and unique Space Marine army alternative.

 

Even with my slightly expanded version of the army list, the Grey Knights do not have a ton of different units to choose from, but in my opinion that is okay. As a pure Grey Knights player, I don't mind that my army consists of Grey Knight Terminator squads, Grey Knights in Power Armour squads, a Dreadnought or two, and a Land Raider or Stormraven or two. I don't need a lot of variety, as long as my phalanx of Knights can get the job done, and do it well, and with style.

 

There have been several naysayers in this thread (who obviously don't play Grey Knights) who say that they don't deserve their own full army list, based on background material that suggests the Grey Knights primarily work in small detachments, usually alongside other forces. Okay, fair enough; in the fluff you are probably right. Perhaps, it would be quite unusual for a 50 or more Grey Knights and their support vehicles to ever gather together on a battlefield to fight in any situation that wasn't a full Daemonic incursion. To this I say, "so what?" Who cares if it is a little odd in the fluff? The simple fact is that those of us that really love the idea of the Grey Knights, their theme, and their special place in the 40k universe, don't care. We just want to play with the Chapter that we love. We want a fully viable army list in this edition that can stand up to any opponent and have a fair chance to achieve victory. We want to be able to do it without having to go elsewhere looking for help, support, or a capability that we are lacking. If I wanted to play the Imperial Guard, or another Space Marine Chapter, I'd be playing those armies, but I, and many others like me, just want to be able to play pure Grey Knights and be able to compete.

 

It is probably a little known fact around here that a pure Grey Knights army list (with Ordo Malleus Daemonhunters) was one of the first ever produced in the game, which was in the Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness book, published in 1988 (less than a year after the Rogue Trader rulebook was released and introduced 40k to gamers for the first time). Although that original list looks quite a bit different than the revised one for 3rd edition (our current one), the simple fact was/is that players are drawn to the Knights because they are the elite of the elite, the chosen defenders of humanity against its greatest threat. This is a Chapter that draws players in, just as much as any of the others, and folks want to be able to play them as an army.

 

Another comment that I often see from the naysayers is that it isn't worth it for GW to revise and support these armies is that they are niche armies that don't have a large market; that it isn't worth the effort, financially, for GW to bother with us. I have to agree that the Grey Knights currently are a niche army. There aren't nearly as many players for the Knights as there are for probably any of the others alternatives. I don't have any idea what the breakdown would be for percentages, but I would guess that we are a pretty small part of the pie. However, there are several reasons for that. First, we are an all-metal model army that is hard to work with, is rather fragile, and is quite expensive. Any attempts to modify or customize our models is difficult. I have several other armies that are fortunately almost all plastic, and the plastic is far easier to work with and much, much cheaper. Second, even when the 3rd Edition codex was released, we never really were viable against all-comers. The army rules and list options were a good effort, but failed to capture the essence of the Knights in a way that would allow them to become a formidable (and therefore a mainstream) force. The evolution of the rules from 3rd to now 5th edition have only exacerbated the issues of viability.

 

I genuinely believe that if GW develops a strong, functional, and "fluffy" army list and rules that fit the spirit of the Knights, and then supports those rules with a line of models in the plastic style that is common to the other Chapters (like the recent Space Wolves and Blood Angels boxed sets), that we will quickly escape the confines of the "niche" list and become an attractive option for new players, and old players looking for an alternative to their primary army.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[greatcrusade08]

Maybe the answer comes from 1ksons, perhaps give our justicars a doombolt equivalent??

[majorpayne327]

I believe that the Inquistion would be updated but it might take longer then most races. The three points I have are:

1. Like many people have said the Inquistion is so deep in the W40K story that they cant just drop them.

2. If you think about it, its a lot of stuff that needs to be done to update the Inquistion. Think of it as a console game or computer game. The story needs to be developed then rules are made, then the units have to be made to follow those rules then then need to physically be created, then they need to be boxed and be ready to ship. All of this could take a long time. Just think, When the New Space Marine Codex was released we found they brought in a lot of neat characters and models... but where are the table top models? Idk about you but I havn't seen any Twin-Linked autocannons for Dreads. Same with the Guard. A new codex was released but we are just starting to see the models emerge from the GW developer offices such as the Leman Russ with Twin-linked Plasma Cannons. What I'm saying is that its gonna take awhile especially when they are updating 3 races at a time and need to release models for them.

3. I'm not sure if it holds true for the SOB but I know the GK army list is composed of only some unique units. Meaning that you buy them from online or at a store as GK while half the list are just Guards and Space Marines heavily converted to be used as GK. If they are gonna release a new Inquisition, they might be thinking of creating strictly GK and SOB models, like GK Land Raiders, and GK Chimeras.

[the jeske]

Like many people have said the Inquistion is so deep in the W40K story that they cant just drop them.

so where the chaos legions and they sold better then GH/WH combined. so thats no argument. fluff wise the inq may be there, but rules wise as a playable faction they maybe cut , if GW decided they wouldnt bring enough money for them.

[Judanas]

SoB are IG veterans in power armour, they use the same weapons as the IG and SM, have the same vehicles minus 1 walker and 2 Rhino-chassis, and have different names for the units. Their playstyle is like gunline Imperial Guard or Space Marines, except with a missile-launching Rhino and a Multi-melta/Heavy flamer transport, plus a few penitents in very vulnerable mech suits.

 

Sisters of Battle are not IG vets in ower armour, they are a lot more. They have unique rules that are seen nowhere else in 40k and thier playstyle is very different to both guard and space marines due to an inability to assualt and a lack of good long range punch outside of the exorcist.

 

I would argue that grey knights are closer to a space marine chapter than Sisters of Battle are. I like Grey Knights but please don't insult the Daughters of the Emperor by calling them 'IG vets in power armour'

 

Plus, SoB models would be far easier to use for a counts as SM army. Grey Knights don't have that luxury. No other army has troops choices with similar weapon configuration as Grey Knights. GKTs wouldn't be useable as an SM Terminator squad, because they have storm bolters, but no power fist. Around here at least, people don't like a counts-as that doesn't even slightly resemble the model it is pretending to be.

 

And the Sisters would never be accepted as a counts as Space Marine force by a lot of players. Where is thier S4 and T4 coming from? They are humans in power armour, not barely human marines. What do we do with our heavy flamers? Or our exorcists? The Space Marines don't have a missile tank to substitute in outside of the whirlwind, which is not remotely alike in form or function. What would our scouts or terminators be? What would our ANYTHING besides basic tactical squads be? Our Assault troops don't have a chainsword, we don't have missile launchers or lascannons and where do the repentia go?

 

It simply would not work beyond Tactical Squads and Sternguard, and even with them we would be thrown out of a lot of stores for having not-marines. At least Grey Knights have a fallback codex to go to, even if it does not match perfectly. We have nada to use.

 

Not saying Grey Knights should be knocked down to space marines, I would hate to see that happen but you cannot discount Sisters of Battle like that.

[greatcrusade08]

I understand your points judanas, but GK cant be used with any other marine dex without converting thier wargear.. in that respect both SOB and GK are in the same boat

[Celestin]

I apologize to those who took offence at what I said, but I do stand by my belief that Grey Knights need either Rhinos/Razorbacks, or some other highly affordable means of traversing the battlefield, because Land Raiders are a terrible option. Having to take Land Raiders as transport vehicles leaves no room for Dreadnoughts or Purgation Squads, and -not- taking transport vehicles means footslogging across the board to take objectives, which is not the least bit practical.

 

I would really like it, if whenever GW -does- revamp the Inquisition books, they simply combine the two, but make it so that you can play pure Grey Knights, pure Sisters, or radical Inquisitorial, without being left with cookie-cutter armies that are based entirely on how many of each force organization slot. 3 (or more) special characters from each army and at least two fully developed choices for each force organization slot aside from Troops would be really nice.

 

That being said, does anyone have some suggestions on how to better round out a radical Inquisitorial army without having to use allies? What would make for good Fast Attack/Heavy Support choices? For that matter, why is it that the only thing Radicals gain access to is Daemonhosts?

[Gentlemanloser]

Well seing as the new Forgeworld Assault Ram space craft is open to every Marine army, bar the Blood Angels and the Grey Knights, it seems a dead cert we'll get the Stormraven when our new Codex is released. :)

 

And they rock!

 

Can be as pricey, or more than a LR, but can get your guys to exactly where you want them, without being roadblocked, like you can do to Land Raiders. :P

[Celestin]

Well seing as the new Forgeworld Assault Ram space craft is open to every Marine army, bar the Blood Angels and the Grey Knights, it seems a dead cert we'll get the Stormraven when our new Codex is released. :)

 

And they rock!

 

Can be as pricey, or more than a LR, but can get your guys to exactly where you want them, without being roadblocked, like you can do to Land Raiders. :P

 

I dunno, the Assault Ram looks like it would be great for either Apocalypse games or high point-value (2500+) regular games, but it seems a bit niche for smaller games. Odd how they left out Grey Knights and Blood Angels from the list of armies that can use it. Wonder why.