Building an SM Army with non-standard units

[Ryjak]

In our local metagame it's still 'marines=LR', and I'm known as the LR-less Typhoon guy.

 

This got me thinking, as I used to avoid units because they were way too common in a SM army. That's why I still don't field a Land Raider of any kind, let alone TH/SS Terminators, or Dreadnoughts. When half of what people play are SM of some variety, it's difficult to distinguish yourself from the crowd AND still be effective. Heck, that's also why there are 5 distinct SM Codexes... trying to make a variety with Marines.

 

So, I guess the first question is: What are the most common elements of a Space Marine Army? Once that is defined (should probably start a poll somewhere) we could attempt to build a useful non-cookie cutter army.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

The way i see it, everything space marines take is considered useful in some way, its more a case of constructing your army in an unusual way. But there are definately under used units, generally because people find they do not perform so adeptly,

 

though in lists i rarely see (correct me if im wrong):

 

Legion of the dead

Devestators

Venerable dreads

Techmarines

Servitors

Vanguard veterans

Sergeant chronus

 

 

The rest tends to be situational and what synergises with the rest of the army. I mean with all the load outs on a dreadnaught theres plenty of room for somethin a bit different! Same with many units its more working a new way for your army to work together and maybe use some units that dont crop up so often....

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

on the flip side the most abundant units are:

 

rhinos

tactical squads

land raiders

dreadnoughts

predators

captains

th/ss terms

 

if you're feeling really frisky try aan imperial fist themed list, and it will justify your deviant troop selection. im thinking devastators techmarines and vanguard :cuss

[H.C.118]

I do believe that captains aren't that abundant. They're just a mid-level unit of the Marine Codex. What you see more, are Vulkanator lists, Sternsanders/Kantorsterns, and Calgarator lists, or Chaplains and Libbys in terms of HQs.

 

So if the OP wans to have some less commonly seen units, then he or she should take Vanguard Vets, Scout Bikers, Techmarines/MOTFs, Biker Lists (only face one so far), Devastators, and 10th Co. lists (scouts).

 

As for the second poster, LOTD are quite common here where I am, how ven. dreds don't work well is beyond me, and I fielded Chronus half the time before I became a "no spc, char unless in apoc" player.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I do believe that captains aren't that abundant. They're just a mid-level unit of the Marine Codex. What you see more, are Vulkanator lists, Sternsanders/Kantorsterns, and Calgarator lists, or Chaplains and Libbys in terms of HQs.

If your not running a pedro list or a vulkan list you're probably running, thats right you guessed it. A stormshield relic blade artificer armor captain lol

[pattison]

In our community the most common C:SM things are (I did not count variant SM players):

 

- LR (mainly LRCs, some LRRs and LRs, generally as many as possible)

- TH&SS termies (mostly with a chaplain)

- Tacs in rhinos or razorbacks

- Sternies in pods or razorbacks

- Whirlwinds (don't ask me why...)

 

Not that many but still common:

 

- Meltabikes

- Ironpods

- Vindicators (mosly only one per list...)

- Jump Pack Assault marines

- HF&MM Speeders

 

Very uncommon:

 

- Dreadnoughts (regular & venerable)

- Scouts & scout bikers

- LotD

 

And these C:SM things are only used by myself in our community nowadays:

 

- Typhoons

- Predators of any kind

- MotF with beamer (starting to spread since his regular appearance in my lists)

- Plasma cannons on tacticals

- Masses of rhino-chassis vehicles

[spartan249]

The only real cookie cutter SM army out there is the Rhino/Razorback mech army. Even then, that's only the core of the list that's cookie cutter. Every C:SM player I meet has either a slightly different take on the Rhino Mech style or goes with a completely off the wall approach. C:SMs aren't as cookie cutter as you think. The only thing I think qualifies as a cookie-cutter unit is the LR with Termies inside. Not that I disapprove... it's basically one of our only answers to the stuff that other armies get. It's C:SM's only real unit that can Foxtrot other amazing units' Alphas with any regularity.

 

Sometimes, a fascination with being original limits your ability to be rational about how you build a strategy. If your army concept really requires counter-assault or CQB insurance, sometimes a LR with Termies is the only answer. Short-changing yourself by using some other unit that either costs more or is inferior in function simply because it is percieved to be overused is a social trap. Codex Marines really can't be picky nowadays because of all the power creep that's been introduced. C:SM players really need to bring their A game to stand a chance in any format.

[Giga]

I concur with spartan249. :)

 

 

 

 

That being said, non-standard units are okay for fun games, but you can theoretically make strong armies with them. Here are a few non-standard units that, while not often seen on tabletop (at least where I play), are all good choices:

 

rifleman dreadnoughts (dual TL-autocannon dreads)

typhoon speeders (heavy bolter + typhoon missile launcher)

master of the forge with conversion beamer, on bike

 

And a couple not-so-efficient-or-popular-yet-still-killy units you might wanna try out:

 

land speeder storm with multimelta, and a combat scout squad with meltabombs and combimeltas

vindicators

thunderfire cannons

[Aidoneus]

I think bikes are one of the most under-rated units in the codex. I've tried out an all-biker list a few times, and a friend of mine is actually in the process of building one up. They completely change the way Space Marines work. If you're at all familiar with Silent Requiem's Water Warrior tactica (in the Ordos forum), Bikers act like Air/Water, as opposed to 66% of Space Marine lists being Earth and 33% being Fire.

 

If you wanted to build the army, you'd need a Captain on a bike (and yeah, he'd probably have a Relic Blade and Storm Shield). If you wanted a second HQ for uniqueness, a Master of the Forge with Conversion Beamer on a bike can be quite fun. After that, 2-4 full-sized Biker squads in Troops (mostly melta, although plasma is nice 'cause you can stay out at 24" and thus evade CC). The key is to take Typhoons as FA to fill the long-range AT niche. Movement-wise, they behave basically like bikes, so it still fits the theme and mechanic.

 

The nice thing is that, unique as it is, the army is still pretty strong. It may not win you a GT or anything, but with an entire army of 12"-moving, T5, well-armed models, you can put up a damned good fight.

[tahrikmili]

What's strange is that what's supposed to be standard is usually not standard at all in Marine army lists.

 

In my list I'm trying to go for as many Tactical Squads and Devastator Squads as possible, with just one HQ, and as few Elites as possible.

 

In its current incarnation I actually ahve 3 veteran squads, but I'll eventually cut down to 1 to accompany my HQ, the rest will just be Tacticals, Devastators and Assault Squads.

 

I play Blood Angels by the way..

[pattison]

Codex Marines really can't be picky nowadays because of all the power creep that's been introduced. C:SM players really need to bring their A game to stand a chance in any format.

Exactly.

 

Bikers act like Air/Water, as opposed to 66% of Space Marine lists being Earth and 33% being Fire.

I think my army is someting like very-very earth with a pinch of air...

[mowglie]

If your not running a pedro list or a vulkan list you're probably running, thats right you guessed it. A stormshield relic blade artificer armor captain lol

 

Sure, if you're playing a captain, it's rare to see him without a relic blade.

 

I think the point was, though, that most lists don't run a captain at all. If you're not running pedro or vulkan, you're probably running just a vanilla librarian.

[Giga]

Or Lysander.

 

Lysander is awesome, and invariably better then a generic captain (unless you want to run biker troops).

[Koremu]

Or Lysander.

 

Lysander is awesome, and invariably better then a generic captain (unless you want to run biker troops).

Or strike at Init 5. Or board a Transport other than a Land Raider.

 

Don't get me wrong, Lysander is awesome, but the generic Captain is a lot cheaper and not that much worse in most circumstances.

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, I don't believe all the units in the Space Marine Codex are useless or even sub-optimal. I think the problem lies in people's perception in how to play 40K. Current conventional thinking is to identify a strength and maximise to that potential, anything else becoming a secondary consideration.

 

However, if you accept there are other ways of playing, you can start to build lists that are different from the norm. Waaaniel is a prime example of this, he has a list that most would scoff at on the internet, but gels together very well and is a tough nut to crack.

 

I won't go on, but as an example, it seems to be considered in this thread that MotF are only any good when sporting a Conversion Beamer and are otherwise sub-optimal or at least overshadowed by other choices. But that would be the case if you have a Landraider Terminator Assault squad etc, but have a Rhino borne Sternguard squad, 2 more Tacticals in Rhinos, then add some Landspeeders and Dreadnought for firepower and mobility, and all of a sudden the MotF has a place. Give him a Plasma Pistol and Power weapon and stick him in with the Sternguard and you have a versatile unit that can fight reasonably, shoot incredibly well and is mobile, and for quite a cheap cost...

 

***Oh yeah, I do think there are a couple duff choices in Codex Space Marines. Techmarines, Servitors and Devastators just don't seem to cut if for me, I really struggle to find a list that can use them effectively when there are other choices available.

[Giga]

Or strike at Init 5. Or board a Transport other than a Land Raider.

In that case, you get Vulkan. ;)

[Koremu]

Or strike at Init 5. Or board a Transport other than a Land Raider.

In that case, you get Vulkan. ;)

Boring crutch is boring.

[DerekLee688]

I've started to number crunch what I need to give up to get plasma cannons. If 10xdevs with 4 cannons is the most efficient then I'll start to use devestators.

 

One unit that I've seen converted here that I'd like to see in action is the quad autocannon havocs that CSM can field.

[greatcrusade08]

There are a few players who do C:SM differently, as Idaho mentioned above Wans list is a god example, where the total is greater then the sum of its parts..

theres even rumour of some complete nutter running an all scout army.

[Aidoneus]

One unit that I've seen converted here that I'd like to see in action is the quad autocannon havocs that CSM can field.

I used to run 2 squads of Havocs with, between them, 4 autocannons and 4 missile launchers. That was in 4th edition though, when they could take Tank Hunters. Having an 8-man squad with, essentially, 4 missile launchers and 2 lascannons for 224pts was sick. Having two of those? Not even fair.

 

Unfortunately, a couple of things mitigate the usefulness of such a unit now. The price of heavy weapons went up, people are taking much more AV14, Chaos' other long-range firepower got nerfed, and, lest we forget, Tank Hunters is no longer an option. Oh, and here's the big one: Obliterators are Heavy Support choices now. Everyone and his mother is filling up HS with those and/or Defilers, which means no room for Havocs.

 

A squad of Autocannons might actually fit fairly well in certain loyalist armies, but unfortunately you guys don't have the option. As for Chaos... well, let's just say that as an ex-Iron Warriors player, I have 6 lascannons, 4 autocannons, 4 missile launchers, and 6 heavy bolters that haven't seen a single game since 5th edition came out. :drool:

[DAwarrior43]

Personally, I never leave home without a Thunderfire Cannon, and I used a Rifleman Dread last night and he was mowing people and vehicles down left and right.

[Ryjak]

I didn't expect this level of response, so thank you. Would someone please post a link to Wan's outside-the-box list?

 

As I cannot conduct a poll, here's a list of neglected Codex Space Marine Units:

 

HQ

Master of the Forge

 

Elite

Legion of the Damned

Venerable dreads

Techmarines

Servitors

Tactical Terminators

 

Troops

Rhinoless Tacticals

Scouts

 

Fast Attack

Vanguard veterans

Scout Bikes

 

Heavy Support

Devestators

 

Hmm... it's interesting how most of these units have a unique rule or ability, which might be part of why you don't see them. Perhaps people simply don't know how to utilize many of these units, or they're simply too expensive for their special rules. I also notice that many of these units are Earth-type units, which kinda makes sense, as many people have moved away from the immobile gunline style of play.

 

I'm going to address a few of these units:

 

MOTF: Probably the biggest hurdle for most is his lack of an invulnerable save. Throw in his generalist nature, funky rules that are difficult to use, and underwhelming CC ability, and it's pretty obvious why he's avoided. I think the best reason to take a MOTF is to boost a Sternguard Squad. He gives them a flamer and boosts their CC ability a lot, plus he fits in with their roll quite well. Maybe I should try rolling with two Sternguard Squads in Assault Cannon Razors...

 

Bolster Defense: This is a hard rule to utilize unless you have an Earth army AND have a few ruins to choose from. I can see why this potent ability is often ignored, but think about using a Gunline with a MOTF, two Tech Marines, and a bunch of ruins to choose from. It'll be pretty hard to dig them out.

 

Conversion Beamer: While the long-range shot is awesome, most of the time you'll be using the mid-range stats. I suppose you can reliably damage light vehicles with it, but that's a pretty easy roll to fill elsewhere. If you stick this on a bike, you have a pretty good chance of using that long-range stat once or twice a game, which can be worth it if you're facing multiple monoliths or titans...

 

Tech-marines and Servitors: If you run a mech gunline, or a bunch of Dreadnoughts, you might actually use their Repair ability. Otherwise, this isn't a very impressive unit, even when armed with a bunch of heavy weapons. Definately an Earth unit. However, they can work great in an Earth army. I'd love to see the wall of Dreadnoughts, bubble-wrapped with Tactical Terminators, supported by Tech-Servitors. The only thing that can stop them is hitting them with an assault, which may not go well with all those powerfist attacks. That's a lot of points though for slow-rolling bowling ball. At least Lysander would fit in well.

 

Vanguard: The most over-priced unit in the SM Codex, it's no wonder you don't see these guys, despite the beautiful models. Do a search, and you'll see a few good ideas on how to use them. I personally like the idea of going whole-hog, and putting them in a LRC with a Chaplain and a Librarian. Sure, it's 1000 points, but you should be able to crush any enemy unit before you die, right? These guys are probably best when they're kept small and cheap, and used with a Drop Pod army. Too bad they can't hit and run like Swooping Hawks or a Mawloc.

 

Devestators: I've never fielded them, because I was a treadhead even when it was a bad idea to tank up, and each Devestator Marine could fire at any target he wanted. Now, it's hard to justify taking a Dev squad instead of any other HS choice, even when everyone takes three HS choices. The only thing they really bring is the ability to field multiple Plasma Cannons. If they used a Troop slot though...

[Arikel]

Maybe try the half battle company? 3 Tacs, 1 Assault, 1 Dev , Captain+Command Squad, and could probably fit one or two other choices. Don't think that people field that very often, though it might be hard to squeeze into a 1500 point game, and you'd have to kit some out as tank hunters.

[Giga]

Or strike at Init 5. Or board a Transport other than a Land Raider.

In that case, you get Vulkan. ;)

Boring crutch is boring.

As far as fun factor goes, unless you're really proud of the model/paintjob and want to field it, Vulkan is invariably more entertaining then a standard captain. They both function similarly, but Vulkan has a heavy flamer and encourages an explosive in-yo-face playstyle. I think that's helluva fun. ;)

[Koremu]

Or strike at Init 5. Or board a Transport other than a Land Raider.

In that case, you get Vulkan. ;)

Boring crutch is boring.

As far as fun factor goes, unless you're really proud of the model/paintjob and want to field it, Vulkan is invariably more entertaining then a standard captain. They both function similarly, but Vulkan has a heavy flamer and encourages an explosive in-yo-face playstyle. I think that's helluva fun. ;)

I think that Vulkan is a lame crutch that encourages cookiespam lists of little or no tactical interest.