Building an SM Army with non-standard units

[Giga]

On topic:

 

You could also use Cassius, Sicarius, and Tigurius. All of those dudes aren't used much, but can work well in certain lists.

I think that Vulkan is a lame crutch that encourages cookiespam lists of little or no tactical interest.

Guess we'll just agree to disagree. ;)

[greatcrusade08]

people see different of aspectsof gaming, welll.. differently.

As the above sugegsts, some would see the cookie cutter-esque nature of vulkan boring, others think its cool.

 

Me i like to do things very differently.. bring me a hundred scouts and ill show you how to kill the enemy ;)

[mowglie]

people see different of aspectsof gaming, welll.. differently.

As the above sugegsts, some would see the cookie cutter-esque nature of vulkan boring, others think its cool.

 

Yeah, curiously I find the hodge-podge lists more boring to play against. Just point the right guns at the right targets... zzz...

 

Actually I wish I could play against the cookie-cutter lists more. Everyone brings unique snowflake and I'm like *yawn*.

 

If I'm playing a friendly game, though, I like to maximise the chance that something awesome happens, not the chance that I win - sure, winning isn't everything. Not sure that belongs on a tactica forum. Maybe we should make a topic "Tactica: How to make awesome stuff happen instead of winning", or "Tactica: How to min-max the uniqueness of your army by avoiding popular units".

 

I don't really play any of the *really* unpopular stuff, but off Ryjak's list I do play Scouts (with CCW, occasionally in a Storm) and Tactical Terminators (usually footslogging, AC or CML and one Chainfist).

 

I'd probably play Scout Bikers if I owned any. They're on my "to buy" list. There's lots of fun stuff I want to try with a Locator Beacon. Don't think it's any good, but it's probably a laugh.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

people see different of aspectsof gaming, welll.. differently.

As the above sugegsts, some would see the cookie cutter-esque nature of vulkan boring, others think its cool.

 

Yeah, curiously I find the hodge-podge lists more boring to play against. Just point the right guns at the right targets... zzz...

 

Actually I wish I could play against the cookie-cutter lists more. Everyone brings unique snowflake and I'm like *yawn*.

 

If I'm playing a friendly game, though, I like to maximise the chance that something awesome happens, not the chance that I win - sure, winning isn't everything. Not sure that belongs on a tactica forum. Maybe we should make a topic "Tactica: How to make awesome stuff happen instead of winning", or "Tactica: How to min-max the uniqueness of your army by avoiding popular units".

 

I don't really play any of the *really* unpopular stuff, but off Ryjak's list I do play Scouts (with CCW, occasionally in a Storm) and Tactical Terminators (usually footslogging, AC or CML and one Chainfist).

 

I'd probably play Scout Bikers if I owned any. They're on my "to buy" list. There's lots of fun stuff I want to try with a Locator Beacon. Don't think it's any good, but it's probably a laugh.

 

I'd actually really like to see a thread like what you proposed, how to make awesome stuff happen.

 

As for the Scout Bikes, I think they can be brutal in a proper list. Cluster mines must be fun against units that live in cover, you can get an easy first turn assault with scout bikes, or if they go first outflank.

 

Did GW ever make a ruling on if you get the cover save from Turbo Boosting on the scout move? If so, then I wouldn't even outflank, but turbo boost them in the scout move and rely on the cover saves to keep them alive.

 

The Scout Bike scout move combined with a locator beacon, Assault Termy squad and Termy librarian with gate of infinity could get those Terminators into the action REALLY fast.

 

I think Scout Bikes could provide a ton of utility.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

units, i do not see people using: and so far have not seen mentioned in this discussion

head quarters1)Chapter masters 2) honor guards 3)Chaplin w/power fist (idk why, re-rolls to hit, muti attack profile, and on par cheapest power fist in the whole list) 4)dreads with twin linked heavy flamers + Heavy flamer upgrade (burn the infidel)

5)105 point dreads, in pairs or triples for current of steel 6) triple predator no upgrades 7)Chronus driving either a Crusader w/MM+SB, or a Dakka Predator w/ SB upgrade (he was mentioned but not in detail) 8)devastator squads, with out heavy weapons (born to die/tar pitting unit) 9)Heavy bolter x4 Devastator squads 9)Scouts on bikes(**sry missed the post above this, edited due to toe stepping) 10)9 man tactical squads with dual Power fist+Rhino or Drop pod 11)six 10 man scout squads, all with sniper rifles, all in combat squads. (in a 2000pt game, at 840, that a dozen scoring troop units, that will spread your enemy thin across the board.) Not considering a point cap, and using these units: how about this for a list

 

Chaplin w/ Fist (rides with 9m tact) & chapter master w/ TDA+TH+LC +Honor guard RB+CB+POD (x10man)

five 10man scout squads in combat squad formations

9 man tactical with dual power fist Sgt + rhino (or pod)

x3 10 man Scout bike squads, in combat squad formations as well (with beacons)

x1-3 devastator squads w/single or dual power fists+pod

x3 Dreads w/Twin link heavy flamers + Heavy flamers +pods

 

you can Nerf the number of Honor guard and tar pitting devastator for point compliance

spread your scouts far & wide, but each in range of covering fire. Turbo boost the scout bikes to bring down your drop pod where you want them. Block/tar pit with the devastators & the triple fire dreads. Burn down any horde, or fire base with a vice drop pattern. HG+Chapter master and 9m tactical and chap w/PF would pod in on 2nd or 3rd turn to finish off and table your foe.

what? (I'm sure it's sooooooo super point heavy but I'm just rambling here.)

did the numbers and some digging... looks better like this.. i think

1.2.1

Chaplin w/ Fist (rides with 9m tact)

2nd Chaplin w/ Fist (rides with devastators

x4 10man scout squads in combat squad formations

9 man tactical with dual power fist Sgt + rhino (or pod)

x2 3man Scout bike squads with beacons)

x1 devastator squads w/ PF and Combi FL + pod

x2 Dreads w/Twin link heavy flamers + Heavy flamers +pod

at 1749

 

edited for ++CLASSIFIED++

[pattison]

3)Chaplin w/power fist (idk why, re-rolls to hit, muti attack profile, and on par cheapest power fist in the whole list)

you don't get the extra attack for the bolt pistol then, 4 re-rolled pw attacks on charge are pretty nice. plus you have a pf in the squad he joins in most of the cases.

but it's just a matter of preference.

 

4)dreads with twin linked heavy flamers + Heavy flamer upgrade (burn the infidel)

tried it, in most of the situations the MM would come handy. the only effective use IMHO could be in a late coming pod, dropped near a footslogging enemy unit.

 

5)105 point dreads, in pairs or triples for current of steel

the storm bolter is useless. a heavy flamer can be decisive in certain situations. so the 115 points MM&HFDCCW dread has much more value for a bit more points.

 

6) triple predator no upgrades

25 points for 2 happy bolters?! YES PLEASE!

 

8)devastator squads, with out heavy weapons (born to die/tar pitting unit)

a.k.a. how to waste a heavy support slot for a non-scoring tactical squad...

 

9)Heavy bolter x4 Devastator squads

plus 3 bolter marines and a storm bolter sarge accompanied by Lysander. strictly for fun lists. <_<

[Fetterkey]

I don't think Vulkan is a crutch, but I prefer Combat Tactics to Chapter Tactics.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

3)Chaplin w/power fist (idk why, re-rolls to hit, muti attack profile, and on par cheapest power fist in the whole list)

you don't get the extra attack for the bolt pistol then, 4 re-rolled pw attacks on charge are pretty nice. plus you have a pf in the squad he joins in most of the cases.

but it's just a matter of preference.

 

4)dreads with twin linked heavy flamers + Heavy flamer upgrade (burn the infidel)

tried it, in most of the situations the MM would come handy. the only effective use IMHO could be in a late coming pod, dropped near a footslogging enemy unit.

 

5)105 point dreads, in pairs or triples for current of steel

the storm bolter is useless. a heavy flamer can be decisive in certain situations. so the 115 points MM&HFDCCW dread has much more value for a bit more points.

 

6) triple predator no upgrades

25 points for 2 happy bolters?! YES PLEASE!

 

8)devastator squads, with out heavy weapons (born to die/tar pitting unit)

a.k.a. how to waste a heavy support slot for a non-scoring tactical squad...

 

9)Heavy bolter x4 Devastator squads

plus 3 bolter marines and a storm bolter sarge accompanied by Lysander. strictly for fun lists. :D

;)

[Ryjak]

Personally, I'm not too interested in odd or rare ways to equip a specific unit, but it's still an interesting topic. No need to get upset when someone posts reasons not to field them, though.

 

Is there a tactica on using Legion of the Damned squads?

[Fetterkey]

I can and do field:

 

-Master of the Forge

-Tactical Combat Squads (sadly rare locally)

-Thunderfire Cannons

-Scouts

 

All of these units have proved effective for me. I think a lot of the strength of certain listbuilding tricks and "killer units" is overrated. I take things that are fluffy and fun and do well with them.

[Nougat]

I concur with the "making awesome stuff happen" idea. I am sorely tempted to make a Guard army with 3 Deathstrikes for this reason, but that's off-topic. Units like Vindicators and Whirlwinds, flamer squads, etc. can cause "awesome stuff" to happen with the potential destruction they can unleash. But I also like when some little, overlooked unit does the unexpected, and Space Marines are great for that because almost every unit can do a little bit of everything. Even our scouts and devastator squads can put out at least a little bit of hurt in close combat, and assault squads can do some surprisingly effective shooting.

[mowglie]

Units like Vindicators and Whirlwinds, flamer squads, etc. can cause "awesome stuff" to happen with the potential destruction they can unleash.

 

I play 3x Vindicator aggressively for that reason. Roll them straight up the middle of the table with Rhinos behind. They're very hit and miss (see what I did there? :P), and it's obviously the wrong thing to do with them, but it's awesome fun.

 

They've got the particular advantage of being very good vs static S7, which is quite popular now. So they punish you for playing flavor of the month. Most hodge-podge lists can still kick out enough oomph to stop them before they do too much damage, but they get the heart racing :)

[Warprat]

I'm playing an all walking army...

 

1 Librarian w/avenger, null zone

10 Tactical Termies w/cyclones, 2 chain fists

1 Dreadnought (Rifleman or assault cannon/hvy flamer)

4 Full Tactical squads with plasma cannon, flamer, combi-flamer, melta bombs

 

Around 1500 pts. Sometimes I use the Chapter Master or in higher point games add in or subtitute a Devestator squad or Sternguard squad. The lack of mobility does hurt, but by changing your playing style to suite the enemy and battle field (Like a slow water army), most issues can be overcome. It is not an optimized list, but does surprising well against a wide variety of opponents. I usually tie, but do manage to get more wins than losses. I usually face Tau and Space Wolves with a goodly selection of most of the bells and whistles.

 

I'm leaning towards replacing one of the Tacticals with a Scout squad, and adding in a Drop Pod, but have not done so yet. I am also considering using the Drop Pod for Devestators w/4 missile launchers, or multi-melta. Might add in a multi-melta Storm if I use the scouts.

 

Warprat ;)

[Race Bannon]

Thing is, I don't believe all the units in the Space Marine Codex are useless or even sub-optimal. I think the problem lies in people's perception in how to play 40K. Current conventional thinking is to identify a strength and maximise to that potential, anything else becoming a secondary consideration.

 

This, all day. Not just from a personal belief, but it also tacitly answers the OP's question; less about what units are commonly chosen, and more why they are chosen. Just look at this forum: easily over 50% of the threads are "how you would upgrade this unit" or "why this over that" or ""how do you use ..."

 

Captain Idaho summarized the why: to maximize potential while minimizing variables. This is logical - why would anyone deliberately make a inferior choice knowing the likelihood of loss? For glory ... vindication? These are HUGE variables. The average player, I'll bet is not interested in "glory".

 

Bottom line, it's still a game. Games, by design, are competitive. Min/maxing unit choice makes sense competitively. The issue the OP is raising is the long term effect the game, by design, has had on the players. This forum, again, is a testament to this idea.

 

Of course, you all know this :)

 

I wonder ... would making a a useful non-cookie cutter army be making a different cookie shape? I appreciate the OP's initial discussion though and some follow-up posts have been revealing. For my own part, at my LGS, the meta-game almost revolves around Land-Raiders (or equivalent) and the means to destroy them (usually via Meltagun). It's utterly boring, and I am against the grain - from discussion to practice. But my group also has a tournament-metagame soooo.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I like the whole idea of walking armies. It's a nice change of pace from the 10ish plastic boxes on the table... woohoo. That's partially the reason why I'm switching over to a count-as blood angel army and fielding boat loads of RAS... fun stuff right there!

 

Other than that, drop pods with deathwinds. But I never really use these so I donno how to put them in a usable list.

[pattison]

It's a nice change of pace from the 10ish plastic boxes on the table... woohoo.

Hm dunno, I just love the 10ish plastic boxes on the table. :)

[Ryjak]

I wonder ... would making a a useful non-cookie cutter army be making a different cookie shape? I appreciate the OP's initial discussion though and some follow-up posts have been revealing. For my own part, at my LGS, the meta-game almost revolves around Land-Raiders (or equivalent) and the means to destroy them (usually via Meltagun). It's utterly boring, and I am against the grain - from discussion to practice. But my group also has a tournament-metagame soooo.

 

Yes, this discussion certainly has been interesting. I don't think it's possible at this point to make a new cookie shape, as people will always gravitate over time towards any Codex's optimum builds... especially when the type of game you play is so limited. If anything, the internet accelerates this process, which leads us to the current state of Space Marine armies. If you take Vulcan, your army is going to look and play a certain way. If you take Pedro, your army is going to look and play a certain way. Certain units are almost guaranteed to be in any Codex Space Marine list you field or face.

 

That's why it's been fun to watch Great Crusade develop the unit tactics and army strategies for an all-scout (or majority scout) army. It's the same process, but it's a lot slower, since he can't tap a vast network of players' experiences. He's mostly going on his own, and getting some limited ideas and feedback from his posts here on the B&C.

 

Perhaps, what we as a community should do, is try to hash out a new concept army. If you MUST take a Legion of the Damned squad every 700 points, what kind of army would you end up building? Or if you had to field two MotFs, or Magnus Calgar, or Cato Sicarus, or Chaplain Cassius and Chief Librarian Tigrus?

 

At the very least, it might make the game a bit more interesting for you.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I suppose anything is possible as long as you look for something to synchronise it with...a good deal of armies out there pick something and build an army around it, be it a concept, a unit or even a character!

 

I think that the 'sub-optimal' units could become so much more if the rest of the army was built primarily around them, well thats the theory hopefully it'd be fun if nothing else.........

[Aidoneus]

If you take Vulcan, your army is going to look and play a certain way. If you take Pedro, your army is going to look and play a certain way.

Not sure I actually agree with this, although I certainly see where you're coming from. Take Vulkan though. One player might seize on the Thunder Hammer aspect of his Chapter Tactics, taking 3 squads of assault termies in Raiders, and giving his Tac Sergeants THs as well, making a deadly assault army. Another player would go with Drop Pods to get Sternguard and Tac squads right into the enemy's ranks 1st turn. Myself, I would ally in Sisters (being an Ordos player), and use Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, and the Sisters to make a mobile short-ranged shooting list. Now, all of these lists are built around a single character, but they're each incredibly distinct from the other two, both in unit selection and playstyle.

 

 

I suppose anything is possible as long as you look for something to synchronise it with...a good deal of armies out there pick something and build an army around it, be it a concept, a unit or even a character!

 

I think that the 'sub-optimal' units could become so much more if the rest of the army was built primarily around them, well thats the theory hopefully it'd be fun if nothing else.........

This, I find extremely interesting, and worth more consideration. I think it hits on an important point: it's not that certain units are better than others, it's that certain units synergize well with each other, and synergy is what's important. For instance, no one argues that MM/HF Dreadnoughts are brokenly powerful, but with Vulkan they become a force to be reckoned with. Or consider the Chaos psychic power Lash of Submission. By itself it's not all that powerful at all, but in combination with Obliterators... quite a different story. With this in mind, it seems obvious that most of the power builds out there have simply grabbed hold of some combination of units that synergize especially well, and pushed that concept to its extreme.

 

This is kinda what I meant with my post earlier about the all-bike (and land speeder) list. What I had done is picked units with the same strengths - fast movement and on-the-go shooting - and carried that concept as far as I could. So even though bikes aren't all that great, nor certainly popular, the list as a whole works very well.

[Koremu]

If you take Vulcan, your army is going to look and play a certain way. If you take Pedro, your army is going to look and play a certain way.

Which is precisely why I dislike the current crop of Special Characters. I would really like to get back to that whole "Marines are tactically flexible" part, which is the whole point of Marines, rather than "This SC makes you into this kind of hyper-specialised army".

 

It really wouldn't be asking too much for GW to make Marines have on-field tactical options, rather than at-list-construction types.

 

It's why Sicarius is the only good SC in C:SM.

[Captain Idaho]

If you take Vulcan, your army is going to look and play a certain way. If you take Pedro, your army is going to look and play a certain way.

Which is precisely why I dislike the current crop of Special Characters. I would really like to get back to that whole "Marines are tactically flexible" part, which is the whole point of Marines, rather than "This SC makes you into this kind of hyper-specialised army".

 

It really wouldn't be asking too much for GW to make Marines have on-field tactical options, rather than at-list-construction types.

 

It's why Sicarius is the only good SC in C:SM.

 

Funny really as everyone has their prefered style. It is evident that some players like to have armies that emphasise a particular facet of the game, specialised down a certain road (hence why Vulkan and Kantor are so popular) whilst other players like a balanced approach that being tactically flexible achieves (my preference).

 

Both are valid as its your own hobby, but I feel Space Marines do well with a more balanced approach.

[Captain Idaho]

I didn't expect this level of response, so thank you. Would someone please post a link to Wan's outside-the-box list?

 

Oops, seems I missed this first time round! :lol:

 

Here is a rough run down of his list:

 

Librarian - Machine Curse, Avenger

 

8-9 Sternguard

in a Rhino

 

Dreadnought - Twin Linked Lascannon and DCCW

 

Dreadnought - Dual Twin Linked Autocannons

 

Full Tactical squad

in a Rhino

 

Full Tactical squad

in a Rhino

 

2x Typhoons

 

2x Landspeeders - Multi-melta

 

Thunderfire Cannon

 

Not particularly unusual, but often considered distinctly average on the table. However, the army has no single point of failure and can lay down a fiendish amount of firepower. Note there isn't a single assault unit in sight?

 

Requires discipline to use, as you need to prioritise your targets and not throw your units away. Even the MM Landspeeders are not suicide units, as he uses them to hang behind the Rhinos and strike when needed.

 

I have seen him take on a GT Finalist using 5th edition Tyranids, with 3 Trygons, the Swarmlord, Zoanthropes and loads of Genestealers at 1,750pts (slightly higher than usual, think he might have had more infantry?) and the game was long and bloody. Awesome game.

[ShinyRhino]

I run several of these sub-optimal units. VenDreads are a staple in my armies. Full-sized bike squads (one of them packs 2x plasmaguns!). Master of the Forge with Beamer, ON FOOT.

 

If I were going to make a fun list from largely under-used units in the codex...I'd go for a "Scouring of Boros" list.

Tigurius, several tac squads, at least two full Legion of the Damned squads, and maybe a Thunderfire Cannon and.or some Devastators. Fluffy, and downright awesome.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think SCs are quite a reasonable addition to an SM with their special rules, they give us the chance to play in a wide varierty of different styles (and marines can already do that) id prefer to stick to my generic captain, but its nice to have the option to play a different way if i wanted to and have something to help bolster that different way

[Ryjak]

Not sure I actually agree with this, although I certainly see where you're coming from. Take Vulkan though. One player might seize on the Thunder Hammer aspect of his Chapter Tactics, taking 3 squads of assault termies in Raiders, and giving his Tac Sergeants THs as well, making a deadly assault army. Another player would go with Drop Pods to get Sternguard and Tac squads right into the enemy's ranks 1st turn.

Those are all different, but they all will emphasize certain units with very close-range shooting and assaults. You're not going to see a Vulcan Army with Tactical Terminators, Snipers, and Combi-Preds.

 

I suppose anything is possible as long as you look for something to synchronise it with...a good deal of armies out there pick something and build an army around it, be it a concept, a unit or even a character!

 

I think that the 'sub-optimal' units could become so much more if the rest of the army was built primarily around them, well thats the theory hopefully it'd be fun if nothing else.........

If I were going to make a fun list from largely under-used units in the codex...I'd go for a "Scouring of Boros" list.

Tigurius, several tac squads, at least two full Legion of the Damned squads, and maybe a Thunderfire Cannon and.or some Devastators. Fluffy, and downright awesome.

Here's an example of an army built around a non-optimal unit, and I'd love to play against it.

 

Which is precisely why I dislike the current crop of Special Characters. I would really like to get back to that whole "Marines are tactically flexible" part, which is the whole point of Marines, rather than "This SC makes you into this kind of hyper-specialised army".

 

It really wouldn't be asking too much for GW to make Marines have on-field tactical options, rather than at-list-construction types.

 

It's why Sicarius is the only good SC in C:SM.

 

Yet, strangely, you don't see too many lists with a MotF and six dreadnoughts stomping around. To me, the problem here is two-fold. First, most SCs are woefully underpriced. (Try building a Master into Pedro) Second, most hyper-specialized are easy to use. This is why you'll see lots of Vulkan and Pedro lists, but not so many MotF or Sicarius lists.

 

Librarian - Machine Curse, Avenger

 

8-9 Sternguard

in a Rhino

 

Dreadnought - Twin Linked Lascannon and DCCW

 

Dreadnought - Dual Twin Linked Autocannons

 

Full Tactical squad

in a Rhino

 

Full Tactical squad

in a Rhino

 

2x Typhoons

 

2x Landspeeders - Multi-melta

 

Thunderfire Cannon

 

Looks like a good gunline list to me. It works because it uses mobility as a secondary focus, instead of the normal counter-assault. Definately will take some skill to use effectively.

 

I think SCs are quite a reasonable addition to an SM with their special rules, they give us the chance to play in a wide varierty of different styles (and marines can already do that) id prefer to stick to my generic captain, but its nice to have the option to play a different way if i wanted to and have something to help bolster that different way

 

I agree with your general idea, and using special rules that impact the entire army is great, but when you don't even have to pay for advantagous special rules, it breaks the game.