Building an SM Army with non-standard units

[mowglie]

I suppose anything is possible as long as you look for something to synchronise it with.

 

We should start those topics. e.g. "Let's build a 1,500 point list with VV in.", or "Let's build a 2,000 point devastator gunline."

[Aidoneus]

I'd say pick a couple that you're interested in and start them. There are too many underused SM units to make a topic for every single one. I would personally be interested to see lists built around the following:

 

Sicarius

Master of the Forge

Legion of the Damned

Bikes

Dev Squad

Thunderfire Cannon

[Race Bannon]

Is this an exercise in deliberately picking uncommon units and making viable lists based around them? Or are we trying to make a list that includes uncommon units? Is the difference obvious?

[Koremu]

Sicarius

I use Sicarius all the time. The ability to Outflank a rolling, Scoring, Twin-Linked Assault Cannon Tank is not to be sniffed at.

 

Counter-Attack is funny too.

[ShinyRhino]

Sicarius

I use Sicarius all the time. The ability to Outflank a rolling, Scoring, Twin-Linked Assault Cannon Tank is not to be sniffed at.

 

Tac Squad in an Assault Cannon Razorback?

[Ming]

OK, how about going back to the basics of learning and training to be a marine with a fluffy list like this:

 

Chaplain

Chaplain, JP

 

1-2 Ironclad(s) or Venerable(s)

Techmarine, X servitors

 

Full Scout Squad, PF, HB, bolters

Full Scout Squad, Tellion, Sniper rifles, MB

Full Scout Squad, PW, Shotguns, MB

Full Scout Squad, PW, bolt pistols and chainswords or combat blades, MB

 

Devs, 4x ML, PW

Devs, 4x HB, PW

Devs, 4x MM, PF

 

Full Scout Biker Squad

Full Scout Biker Squad

Full Assault Squad, PF, JPs, FL, PP, Bolt pistols and chainswords

 

In the codex, chaplains oversee the training of new recruits from scouts on through. The list above could use some transports (speeders) if possible points wise, and everything is spammed in each unit (today's class is the bolt pistol and chainsword. We depart at 0600 to attack an orc warband. We plan to be back at noon for tea and power armor introductry training) for the fluffy reason of each sergeant training a different squad on a different weapon system.

 

IIRR scouts move to the dev squads and on through assault squads before coming back to be tactical marines. I just threw in the dreads as a means for scouts to get introduced to them....the tech marine is there for equipment training and malfunctions...the chaplains of course boltser the scouts being trained for assault. Who better than tellion to train snipers? Devs don't train this early on PC and LCs, have to learn the more basic weapons first....

 

Try it at your next 1750 point tournament...better book mark it or copy it to that Scout Army thread in the Library....

[Koremu]

Sicarius

I use Sicarius all the time. The ability to Outflank a rolling, Scoring, Twin-Linked Assault Cannon Tank is not to be sniffed at.

 

Tac Squad in an Assault Cannon Razorback?

Yup. Season with Power weaponry or fists to taste. Works well with the Stronos too, which has the advantage of the long range option too.

[Nougat]

I think SCs are quite a reasonable addition to an SM with their special rules, they give us the chance to play in a wide varierty of different styles (and marines can already do that) id prefer to stick to my generic captain, but its nice to have the option to play a different way if i wanted to and have something to help bolster that different way

I wouldn't mind the special characters if most of them weren't hands-down much better than the regular Captains, Chaplains, etc. If you have something very specific in mind, you might find a use for a non-special character, but it seems to me it should work the other way around. It should be:

 

"How can I build my army to make this special character worthwhile over a Captain" not "How can I build my army so that it's worth taking something other than Vulcan/Pedro/Lysander, etc?"

 

Usually it seems like the choice goes like, "Okay, pretty much any army build I make up is using Meltaguns and flamers anyway, so Vulcan's ability to make them MC'ed is enough reason to take him by itself, and everything else is just gravy!"

 

Librarians are the exception, since there isn't a great special character option if you want a psker.

[Koremu]

Librarians are the exception, since there isn't a great special character option if you want a psker.

Errrr... Tigurius is quite awesome. It's telling that he is the best psyker in 40k and in addition has his funky reserves re-roll. That ability alone is worth the 80 point upgrade over an Epistolary.

[mowglie]

Errrr... Tigurius is quite awesome. It's telling that he is the best psyker in 40k and in addition has his funky reserves re-roll. That ability alone is worth the 80 point upgrade over an Epistolary.

 

Sure, if you're taking an Epistolary. Most people seem to just take a naked 100pt librarian though.

[Koremu]

Errrr... Tigurius is quite awesome. It's telling that he is the best psyker in 40k and in addition has his funky reserves re-roll. That ability alone is worth the 80 point upgrade over an Epistolary.

 

Sure, if you're taking an Epistolary. Most people seem to just take a naked 100pt librarian though.

Really? I almost always field my regular Librarians in Terminator Armour, sometimes upgraded to Epistolary.

 

There are few more annoying events than a Terminator Squad with attached Librarian coming down with Teleport Homer precision, and Terminator Armour is the only way to achieve a permanent Invulnerability Save for the Librarian.

[Ming]

The only problem is terminators cannot assault the turn they deep strike, which is sad sad sad. The 4x6 table is too small for most game sizes to get a deep strike in in the enemy backfield, wait a turn, then move out and assault. I'm pretty much giving up on terminator deep strikes....

[norngahl]

I run my libby with TDA and shield at 140 points. He has a better defence (40 points for 2+/3++ --> extremly increasing survivability against enemies and perils of the warp, keep your psychic defence and nullzone alive!) and offers you the... VORTEX! I love this power. Rips ANYTHING apart. Sure, some risk to damage your own, but with 3++ you are really save. If you don´t like to field your libby aggressive (let him sit back in a vehicle in cover..) you don´t have to invest those few bucks. I never field 2 chars, so the one libby I have I want to stay alive (much points + killpoints).

 

Tigurius is hardly ever worth it IMO.

 

Yes, he has the option to cast 3 powers a turn.. but what could you cast with 3 powers? 1. nullzone 2. gate 3. avenger. This is the only real combo to make best use of him. But if he casts 3 powes he will sooner or later die to perils of the warp. With 2 wounds and no invul, he will be dead at.. turn 3-4 , depends how much your dices like you (Perils coming at 2 and 12, you have 11 combinations with 2 dices, so the PotW chance is 2/11, with 3 casts/turn its 6/11 so statistically he is definately dead at turn 4, more likely at turn 3).

 

Beside this, Tiguris ability to reroll reserve throws is great, you have a 75% chance to get a unit in or keep it in reserve, as you wish. Consider an "everything in reserve" thats a great deal. But if it´s really worth the 130 point upgrade.. I guess rather not. Maybe at 2500 points he is, but at usual 1750 you can get better stuff for your bucks :D

[Aidoneus]

Yes, he has the option to cast 3 powers a turn.. but what could you cast with 3 powers? 1. nullzone 2. gate 3. avenger. This is the only real combo to make best use of him. But if he casts 3 powes he will sooner or later die to perils of the warp. With 2 wounds and no invul, he will be dead at.. turn 3-4 , depends how much your dices like you (Perils coming at 2 and 12, you have 11 combinations with 2 dices, so the PotW chance is 2/11, with 3 casts/turn its 6/11 so statistically he is definately dead at turn 4, more likely at turn 3).

Yeah... not how probability works. See, with two 6-sided dice there are 36 possible combinations (for every number on die 1, there are six different numbers that could come up on die 2). Two of those 36 combinations result in Perils, meaning the probability is 2/36, or 1/18. Casting 3 powers a turn, it will take an average of 6 turns for him to Perils once. Of course, that's just an average, and reality can skew pretty far one way or the other. But you get the idea.

 

That being said, I agree that Tigerius is never worth taking. For almost the cost of a Land Raider, he has 2 wounds and no invuln save. My friend tried taking him a couple times, and it flat-out failed. Way too easy to take down.

[ShinyRhino]

Tigurius is hardly ever worth it IMO.

 

Yes, he has the option to cast 3 powers a turn.. but what could you cast with 3 powers? 1. nullzone 2. gate 3. avenger. This is the only real combo to make best use of him. But if he casts 3 powes he will sooner or later die to perils of the warp. With 2 wounds and no invul, he will be dead at.. turn 3-4 , depends how much your dices like you (Perils coming at 2 and 12, you have 11 combinations with 2 dices, so the PotW chance is 2/11, with 3 casts/turn its 6/11 so statistically he is definately dead at turn 4, more likely at turn 3).

 

You're joking, right? There are a TON of great combos when using 3 powers per turn. Avenger or Smite, then Might or Quickening, and then activation of his force weapon when attached to a melee squad. Force Dome, Gate, Avenger or Smite when attached to a shooting squad. Might, then two activations of his force weapon when attacking multiwound models (Nobz, etc). Force Dome, Machine Curse, Might when trying to take down a vehicle.

[Mysticaria]

Yes, he has the option to cast 3 powers a turn.. but what could you cast with 3 powers? 1. nullzone 2. gate 3. avenger. This is the only real combo to make best use of him. But if he casts 3 powes he will sooner or later die to perils of the warp. With 2 wounds and no invul, he will be dead at.. turn 3-4 , depends how much your dices like you (Perils coming at 2 and 12, you have 11 combinations with 2 dices, so the PotW chance is 2/11, with 3 casts/turn its 6/11 so statistically he is definately dead at turn 4, more likely at turn 3).

Unfortunately not all of those 11 possible combinations come up equally due to the fact that you are rolling 2 dice. For example, you can make 2 only with 1,1 but you can make 7 with 1,6 or 2,5 or 3,4 or 4,3 or 5,2 or 6,1. I'm sure you can see that average rolling will produce 7 six times more often then it produce 2. It is hardly fair to treat these two numbers as equal possible output. In actuallity, you have only a 2/36 (breaks out to 5.55%) chance of getting perils... less than 33% of what your math says. Check it again and you will see. With a 3++ save on that wound... chances are good you will go the entire game without problems.

 

EDIT: Sorry, see someone already posted this. I will read until the end of the thread before replying next time.

 

-Myst

[norngahl]

Oops, mea culpa, logical mistake, sorry ;)

 

There is no real proper use for 3 powers a turn.. sure quickening + might + force weapon.. with 3 attackes you first have to hit, than you have to wound, than you have to get through invul saves and then you have to pass all 3 psychic tests.. that are a lot of ifs Oo In return, he will die if he doesn´t get his enemy killed (pretty sure).

 

CC libbys suck. There is no reason to tool them for CC because they just suck. If you want to let them do some damage, take avenger or vortex. Anyone else and his mother is better in CC than tigurius or regular libbys (except BA libbys perhabs, Mephiston is a monster on his own).

 

If you want a nilla CC monster take Lysander.. S10, 2+/3++, 4 wounds and EW will kill anything. But before you choose Lysander.. better take 5 TH/SS termies-> more attacks, more wounds, same price.

 

Days of libbys with jump packs, cc gear, fear of darkness and w3 attack bonus are over :P They are just support units with some ranged damage potential, nothing else.

[Koremu]

Tigurius is hardly ever worth it IMO.

 

Yes, he has the option to cast 3 powers a turn.. but what could you cast with 3 powers? 1. nullzone 2. gate 3. avenger. This is the only real combo to make best use of him. But if he casts 3 powes he will sooner or later die to perils of the warp. With 2 wounds and no invul, he will be dead at.. turn 3-4 , depends how much your dices like you (Perils coming at 2 and 12, you have 11 combinations with 2 dices, so the PotW chance is 2/11, with 3 casts/turn its 6/11 so statistically he is definately dead at turn 4, more likely at turn 3).

 

You're joking, right? There are a TON of great combos when using 3 powers per turn. Avenger or Smite, then Might or Quickening, and then activation of his force weapon when attached to a melee squad. Force Dome, Gate, Avenger or Smite when attached to a shooting squad. Might, then two activations of his force weapon when attacking multiwound models (Nobz, etc). Force Dome, Machine Curse, Might when trying to take down a vehicle.

You can only use the Force Weapon Psychic Power once per turn IIRC.

 

Nullzone, Force Dome and something offensive is a classic.

 

Quickening/Might/ForceWeapon is another way of taking down an MC.

 

There's also the not inconsiderable advantage he has of knowing all the powers. You don't have to decide his use at list construction, and that flexibility is very useful.

[Brother Gathurn]

I actually do not see dreadnoughts very often. Perhaps build a list based around 3 dreads and several tacs walking forward suported by a motf and a techmarine? then mabye cover them with a some devestators? You could probably add an assault squad for good measure. Plasma and lack of mobility would tear them apart. but against, say orks, or nids, or necrons. It would be fun.