Infiltrate Terminators with Shrike

[Albion de Heaven]

Hi all guys

 

as usual after have read again and again my rulebook i have noticed a big difference between english version and italian translation (sadness)

 

 

On another forum we have a very long discussion about deploying/not deploying at DOW both tyrant and guard at the beginning but this is another story (or topic :)).

 

This lead me to read again and carefully the indipendent characters section from rulebook

 

p.48

 

First bullet: "In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within the 2'' coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase [...cut, this is not what we are talking about]"

 

Second bullet: "Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them.

 

 

p.94 RESERVES

"[...]During deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the player must clearly explain the organisation of this reserves to the opponent. First he must specicy to the opponent if any of his independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will be rolled for and will arrive together, or not [...].If units in reserve have the deep strike, scout or infiltrate special rule, the player must declare to his opponent, during army deployment, whether they are going to use their special rules to deep strike/outflank or they are going to enter from his own table edge[...]"

 

 

p.86 ORGANISING A BATTLE

1) agree point limits

2) prepare the battlefield

3) select a mission

4) deploy forces

5) start the game

 

C:SM

p. (don't know)

Captain Shrike: "Shrike and mambers of his squad have infiltrate universal rule"

 

 

 

So the question is:

1) "can i joint shrike to my squad of terminator/sternguard/assault/something else and infiltrate them at the beginning of the game?": my answer is NO

 

2) "can i joint shrike to my squad of terminator/sternguard/assault/something else and outflank with them?": my answer is YES

 

 

Analyze the deploy steps:

 

I deploy my forces, than i still have in my hands my terminators and the captain, they are different units there is no wat to have shirke join them at this point because the only way is to be deployed in coherency or reserve togather.

 

if i try to deploy in coherency i will have to put them in my deploy zone, and than add shirke, or deploy him and them them near him (in my zone, because since they are not a single unit yet they still don't have the infiltration rule)

 

If i declare to reserve both i can joint them, and at the moment to declare outflanking they are already a single unit.

 

No guys AFTER READING RULEBOOK QUOTES can you tell me if i'm missing something?

 

thank you

Albion

[Aidoneus]

I'm pretty sure that second bullet point (may begin the game joined...) lets you infiltrate them. There's no explicit order to things (e.g. first set one unit down, then the other, then they count as joined). It's just that they start the game joined, and part of that is that they are deployed in coherency. Shrike's Infiltrate rule lets them deploy using the Infiltrate rules. I see nothing blocking that from applying.

[greatcrusade08]

Its correct, if shrike starst the game attached to a unit then that unit may infiltrate as per the rules.. infiltrating is a form of deplyment

[Grey Mage]

Infiltration is a form of deployment, sure.

 

The real big reason though is you decide wich characters are going with wich units during the deployment phase. Thus, you can join Shrike to the unit at any time while setting up the rest of your forces simply by saying to your opponent "shrike will be deploying with _____," and then moving on with your life. Just like you would with a deep striking or reserved unit.

 

Then, assuming your deployment is otherwise legal you either hand deployment off to him, or continue to infiltrators.

[Albion de Heaven]

Second bullet: "Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them.

 

 

I beg your pardon being so boring but since english is not my motherlanguage probably I make some translation error.

 

I read: "by being deployed in coherency with them" = "if you deploy an IC in coherency with a unit, he joins the unit"

 

but nowhere it states (adress me to that page/line please ;) if i miss it) that you can tell that they join BEFORE putting them on the table UNLESS you declare them in reserve

[Grey Mage]

Second bullet: "Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them.

 

 

I beg your pardon being so boring but since english is not my motherlanguage probably I make some translation error.

 

I read: "by being deployed in coherency with them" = "if you deploy an IC in coherency with a unit, he joins the unit"

 

but nowhere it states (adress me to that page/line please ;) if i miss it) that you can tell that they join BEFORE putting them on the table UNLESS you declare them in reserve

Why not?

 

You declare "Im deploying this character with that unit". He has now joined the unit. You then place them on the table in coherency.

[greatcrusade08]

when you deploy units, you point to your unit of hammernators and say these are going to be attached to shrike.. you then keep them aside until infiltrators are placed later.

 

although i have to say, i really dont like seeing the whole termies shrike combo, they cant assault first turn so for me its far too dangerous.

[Albion de Heaven]

deploy means to put it on the table no?

 

for examples if i remember correctly combact squads are used when you deploy the unit --> when they enter from reserve or when you put them on the table before starting the game.

 

"by being deployed in coherency with them" does not mean "declaring that i will deploy them later togheter"

 

simply because the xxx unit does not have infiltrate unit and will not gain it untill you put your IC in coherency with them on the table

[Albion de Heaven]

when you deploy units, you point to your unit of hammernators and say these are going to be attached to shrike.. you then keep them aside until infiltrators are placed later.

 

although i have to say, i really dont like seeing the whole termies shrike combo, they cant assault first turn so for me its far too dangerous.

 

 

 

again, i read the rulkebook and get that to be attached he has to be deployed in coherency, so i read: "you put them on table, that put him near" otherwise we will have to define what is "deploy". I read that UNITIL he is not deployed, he is not with the squad.

 

again maybe this is a fault of my english but it seems like this to me... so this "by being..." is the cause that has as effect to have him attached to the squad ;)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

It is not nice and neat, but here goes;

 

Shrike has Infiltrate.

 

pg 75 "Units with this are deployed last"

 

pg 48 "Alternatively an IC may begin the game already with a unit, by being placed in coherency with them"

 

It is a backwards way of doing it but Shrike gets deployed and the unit with him.

 

As you say AdH, it doesn't say it properly, and if the foe said "You must deploy those Terminators first as a normal unit and then Shrike gets deployed later as an Infiltrator" I think people could not argue against it by strict RAW.

You can't declare a unit to join an IC unless it is for Reserves.

They cannot not deploy just because you want the Terminators to deploy with Shrike.

 

This is one of the few times where I let it go and play Rules As Intended ~ IC never get deployed outside of a unit in 40K, and deploying Shrike on his own and away from the rest of his men is just silly ~ I can't see GW meaning that to happen.

 

+++

 

If someone can give an exact quotation that a unit doesn't have to be deployed because they want to join an Infiltrating IC, I will recant my statement of RAW ;)

[dswanick]

It is not nice and neat, but here goes;

 

Shrike has Infiltrate.

 

pg 75 "Units with this are deployed last"

 

pg 48 "Alternatively an IC may begin the game already with a unit, by being placed in coherency with them"

 

It is a backwards way of doing it but Shrike gets deployed and the unit with him.

 

As you say AdH, it doesn't say it properly, and if the foe said "You must deploy those Terminators first as a normal unit and then Shrike gets deployed later as an Infiltrator" I think people could not argue against it by strict RAW.

You can't declare a unit to join an IC unless it is for Reserves.

They cannot not deploy just because you want the Terminators to deploy with Shrike.

 

This is one of the few times where I let it go and play Rules As Intended ~ IC never get deployed outside of a unit in 40K, and deploying Shrike on his own and away from the rest of his men is just silly ~ I can't see GW meaning that to happen.

 

+++

 

If someone can give an exact quotation that a unit doesn't have to be deployed because they want to join an Infiltrating IC, I will recant my statement of RAW ;)

 

Per above - this logic, however, can be used on any unit, not just terminators. So by this way of thinking, Shrike cannot be deployed with any unit unless that unit has Infiltrate on it's own, thus rendering the whole rule pointless. If Shrike were meant to just be deployed with a unit of Infiltrators, he would simply have the Inflitrate USR and wouldn't need a special re-print of that rule that is at variance to the BRB version (which is lost by an IC who is with a unit without the rule). So no, you are correct - RAW it can very much be argued that he can't Infiltrate with Terminators. By RAW he can't Infiltrate with any unit other than Scouts or Command Squads. So is that what was intended? Because it seems kind of silly to do this to a model with a Jump Pack and then force them to only Infiltrate with units which can not have a jump pack.

[greatcrusade08]

Alternatively an IC may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherancy with them

 

They may begin the game as a unit, aslong as they are deployed in coherancy, infiltration is a type of deployment, therefore there is no confusion

[Albion de Heaven]

Alternatively an IC may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherancy with them

 

They may begin the game as a unit, aslong as they are deployed in coherancy, infiltration is a type of deployment, therefore there is no confusion

 

 

the only problem is that when you go to deploy infiltrator all other units have alredy to be deployed or put in reserve ;)

[Albion de Heaven]

Per above - this logic, however, can be used on any unit, not just terminators. So by this way of thinking, Shrike cannot be deployed with any unit unless that unit has Infiltrate on it's own, thus rendering the whole rule pointless. If Shrike were meant to just be deployed with a unit of Infiltrators, he would simply have the Inflitrate USR and wouldn't need a special re-print of that rule that is at variance to the BRB version (which is lost by an IC who is with a unit without the rule). So no, you are correct - RAW it can very much be argued that he can't Infiltrate with Terminators. By RAW he can't Infiltrate with any unit other than Scouts or Command Squads. So is that what was intended? Because it seems kind of silly to do this to a model with a Jump Pack and then force them to only Infiltrate with units which can not have a jump pack.

 

yes, ANY unit, I used terminator as an example.

This rule will not allow you to infiltrate "a unit" but will allow a joined unit of any time to outflank (since reserve rules states to declare IC joining units and thant declare how they will arrive in game) .. not so pointless ;)

[greatcrusade08]

ok i see where your problem is, your assuming that Shrike has to join the unit by deploying within coherancy of the unit..

this is wrong, it clearly states in the rulebook that he may begin the game already with the unit..

 

This means he has already conferred infiltrate USR on the unit, so whether he is placed within coherancy with the unit or the unit within range of huim doesnt matter, at this point both have the infiltrate USR.

 

Dont get hung up on workding here, it says he may start the game already with the unit... this is black and white, the rest that says by deploying withing coherancy is merely showing how this is reprisented...

He starts with them as a single unit, they get infiltrate USR... simples

[Albion de Heaven]

Dont get hung up on workding here, it says he may start the game already with the unit... this is black and white, the rest that says by deploying withing coherancy is merely showing how this is reprisented...

He starts with them as a single unit, they get infiltrate USR... simples

 

This is your interpretation: it would be just redundant to specify coerency in this way, simply because if he has already joined the unit he already have to be placed in coherency with other models of the unit.

 

I interpretate that placing him next to a unit (or a unit next to him) is the requirement to have him join them.

[Isiah]

Dont get hung up on workding here, it says he may start the game already with the unit... this is black and white, the rest that says by deploying withing coherancy is merely showing how this is reprisented...

He starts with them as a single unit, they get infiltrate USR... simples

 

This is your interpretation: it would be just redundant to specify coerency in this way, simply because if he has already joined the unit he already have to be placed in coherency with other models of the unit.

 

I interpretate that placing him next to a unit (or a unit next to him) is the requirement to have him join them.

 

I don't as he didn't deploy with them.

 

Remember that to infiltrate the infiltrating model(s) must deploy last after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed. This is why Shrike must be stated to be attached to a particular unit in order that they can deploy last as infiltrators en masse.

 

Your particualr example Albion wouldn't work, as the unit he stands next to would have needed to be deployed during the normal deplyoment round and not last as the infiltrate rules state. You must always state that an IC is with a unit before deploying them togehter otherwise in this instance Shrike doesn't confer his special rule.

 

Cheers

I

Edited July 15, 2010 by Isiah

[Albion de Heaven]

I don't as he didn't deploy with them.

 

Remember that to infiltrate the infiltrating model(s) must deploy last after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed. This is why Shrike must be stated to be attached to a particular unit in order that they can deploy last en masse.

 

Your particualr example Albion wouldn't work, as the unit he stands next to would have needed to be deployed during the normal deplyoment round and not last as the infiltrate rules state. You must always state that an IC is with a unit before deploying them togehter otherwise in this instance Shrike doesn't confer his special rule.

 

Cheers

I

 

 

Hi Brother Isiah, you get half of my point.

 

but what i say is that there is no rule about "stating" that an IC can be attached to an unit BEFORE being deployed.

 

An IC is ONLY attached to a unit when he is deployed (or reserved) and DEPLOY = PUT ON TABLE

 

now since the XXX unit that we want to attach to out IC does not have infiltrate you can deploy it in your deploy phase or you can reserve it, you cannot tell "I WILL DEPLOY THEM WITH INFILTRATOR WITH THIS IC" because they don't have "infiltrate" rule.

 

 

If someone can addres me a point where it is stated that you can attach an IC to a unit BEFORE deploying them or evne if you don't deploy them and this is not the reserve rule i will be happy to change my mind (and play Shrike list i have already create B))

Edited July 15, 2010 by Albion de Heaven

[SeattleDV8]

ok i see where your problem is, your assuming that Shrike has to join the unit by deploying within coherancy of the unit..

this is wrong, it clearly states in the rulebook that he may begin the game already with the unit..

 

This means he has already conferred infiltrate USR on the unit, so whether he is placed within coherancy with the unit or the unit within range of huim doesnt matter, at this point both have the infiltrate USR.

 

Dont get hung up on workding here, it says he may start the game already with the unit... this is black and white, the rest that says by deploying withing coherancy is merely showing how this is reprisented...

He starts with them as a single unit, they get infiltrate USR... simples

Not so simples, this is a very poorly worded rule, and as such causes timing issues if you follow RAW (or in this case Silly RAW).

As it is now the character could join the unit in reserves, or when deployed.

If this is the normal deployment there is no problem.

Sadly there is no other way for a IC to join a Unit pre-game and although it seems they meant it to work the way you suggest, the wording does not support that. Shrike's unit could not be held back to Infiltrate because they don't have the USR at that time.

 

The IC joins by being deployed with the unit , not at some time before and with deployed unit only at the 'start of the game'.

We have already had a debate as to when that is. If you go by the Deployment rules on pg 92-93 "Start the Game!" is after deployment ,infiltrate and scout moves.

 

I believe the RAI is clear, BRB pg 48 Special Rules gives the example of an IC joining a unit of infiltrater's and them losing the USR and unable to infiltrate. This implies that an IC should be able to join a unit pre-deployment.

 

Shrike's unit should be allowed to Infiltrate, but it could cause you trouble if you aren't aware of the poor working and are up against someone who wishes to push the RAW.

Edited July 15, 2010 by SeattleDV8

[greatcrusade08]

Shrike's unit should be allowed to Infiltrate, but it could cause you trouble if you aren't aware of the poor working and are up against someone who wishes to push the RAW.

 

i think my 'interpretation' is valid enough to support the commonly used RAI.. i dont joina unit to my shrike but if i did and someone kicked up a fuss.. then hed be playing with himself that day.

[Isiah]

If someone can addres me a point where it is stated that you can attach an IC to a unit BEFORE deploying them or evne if you don't deploy them and this is not the reserve rule i will be happy to change my mind (and play Shrike list i have already create :))

 

OK yes I see your point.

 

But that doesn't alter the fact that in order for Shrike to confer Infiltrate upon a unit, then that unit + Shrike must deploy last AND together. You can't just plonk down a unit of [terminators] during your normal deployment phase, and then plonk Shrike down within 2" of them during the Infiltrators deployment phase, and then expect that [termy] unit to be able to infiltrate.

 

In this instance it isn't only coherency that dictates the ability to confer Infiltrate, but the fact that they are all deployed on masse too.

 

Or am I still missing your point (I probably am B) )???

 

Cheers

I

[Albion de Heaven]

ok i see where your problem is, your assuming that Shrike has to join the unit by deploying within coherancy of the unit..

this is wrong, it clearly states in the rulebook that he may begin the game already with the unit..

 

This means he has already conferred infiltrate USR on the unit, so whether he is placed within coherancy with the unit or the unit within range of huim doesnt matter, at this point both have the infiltrate USR.

 

Dont get hung up on workding here, it says he may start the game already with the unit... this is black and white, the rest that says by deploying withing coherancy is merely showing how this is reprisented...

He starts with them as a single unit, they get infiltrate USR... simples

Not so simples, this is a very poorly worded rule, and as such causes timing issues if you follow RAW (or in this case Silly RAW).

As it is now the character could join the unit in reserves, or when deployed.

If this is the normal deployment there is no problem.

Sadly there is no other way for a IC to join a Unit pre-game and although it seems they meant it to work the way you suggest, the wording does not support that. Shrike's unit could not be held back to Infiltrate because they don't have the USR at that time.

 

The IC joins by being deployed with the unit , not at some time before and with deployed unit only at the 'start of the game'.

We have already had a debate as to when that is. If you go by the Deployment rules on pg 92-93 "Start the Game!" is after deployment ,infiltrate and scout moves.

 

I believe the RAI is clear, BRB pg 48 Special Rules gives the example of an IC joining a unit of infiltrater's and them losing the USR and unable to infiltrate. This implies that an IC should be able to join a unit pre-deployment.

 

Shrike's unit should be allowed to Infiltrate, but it could cause you trouble if you aren't aware of the poor working and are up against someone who wishes to push the RAW.

 

 

I agree with you with poor wording and quite agree on RAI (i'm not so sure that they wanted us infiltrate cercain units).

I don't have the rulebook atm but the example on page 48 can simple means that if you join the IC to the scout in reserve that lose infiltration and can't outflank?

 

regards

[Albion de Heaven]

If someone can addres me a point where it is stated that you can attach an IC to a unit BEFORE deploying them or evne if you don't deploy them and this is not the reserve rule i will be happy to change my mind (and play Shrike list i have already create :P)

 

OK yes I see your point.

 

But that doesn't alter the fact that in order for Shrike to confer Infiltrate upon a unit, then that unit + Shrike must deploy last AND together. You can't just plonk down a unit of [terminators] during your normal deployment phase, and then plonk Shrike down within 2" of them during the Infiltrators deployment phase, and then expect that [termy] unit to be able to infiltrate.

 

In this instance it isn't only coherency that dictates the ability to confer Infiltrate, but the fact that they are all deployed on masse too.

 

Or am I still missing your point (I probably am <_< )???

 

Cheers

I

 

 

What i means is that since you can't infiltrate them (with this interpretation of the rule) the shrike ability can only be used to allow them to outflank. I suppose that DV8 got my point in the closest way.

 

Btw I only want to add that I have always played this rule in the same way you all play it and this doubt springed out a couples of days ago reading on another forum a discussion like this:

 

this is a summary :P

in a DoW scenario can i deploy both hive tyrant and guard since when deployed togather they form a single unit using the henchmen rules stated at page 48?

 

the ppl started to debate and than quotes many sections from the rulebook so the topic was closed from moderators after a big flame at this point:

"i join tyrant and guads as a single unit BEFORE deploying so i can deploy them in DoW" and the other factions say that they still were 2 units...

 

than i discovered the sentence that i quoted at the beginning about the "by being deployed...."

 

 

regards all

and thank you for keeping the discussion so quiet :)

[Grey Mage]

I don't as he didn't deploy with them.

 

Remember that to infiltrate the infiltrating model(s) must deploy last after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed. This is why Shrike must be stated to be attached to a particular unit in order that they can deploy last en masse.

 

Your particualr example Albion wouldn't work, as the unit he stands next to would have needed to be deployed during the normal deplyoment round and not last as the infiltrate rules state. You must always state that an IC is with a unit before deploying them togehter otherwise in this instance Shrike doesn't confer his special rule.

 

Cheers

I

 

 

Hi Brother Isiah, you get half of my point.

 

but what i say is that there is no rule about "stating" that an IC can be attached to an unit BEFORE being deployed.

 

An IC is ONLY attached to a unit when he is deployed (or reserved) and DEPLOY = PUT ON TABLE

 

now since the XXX unit that we want to attach to out IC does not have infiltrate you can deploy it in your deploy phase or you can reserve it, you cannot tell "I WILL DEPLOY THEM WITH INFILTRATOR WITH THIS IC" because they don't have "infiltrate" rule.

 

 

If someone can addres me a point where it is stated that you can attach an IC to a unit BEFORE deploying them or evne if you don't deploy them and this is not the reserve rule i will be happy to change my mind (and play Shrike list i have already create :blink:)

Your making the assumption that deployed with means placed on the table with at that time.

 

You make declarations of ICs deploying with units in reserve, of units being deployed inside vehicles, of units outflanking, etc all during the deployment phase. You are in fact choosing how they will deploy, and making these choices plain to your opponent.

 

Similarly, you cant choose to not to declare if a unit with infiltrate is deploying via infiltrate or deploying via outflank, the choice must be made during deployment.

 

Choosing to do so with Shrike is exactly the same, and follows the rules. In fact its the only way to be consistent with the rules we are given.

[Albion de Heaven]

Your making the assumption that deployed with means placed on the table with at that time.

 

You make declarations of ICs deploying with units in reserve, of units being deployed inside vehicles, of units outflanking, etc all during the deployment phase. You are in fact choosing how they will deploy, and making these choices plain to your opponent.

 

Similarly, you cant choose to not to declare if a unit with infiltrate is deploying via infiltrate or deploying via outflank, the choice must be made during deployment.

 

Choosing to do so with Shrike is exactly the same, and follows the rules. In fact its the only way to be consistent with the rules we are given.

 

 

well well well

 

 

You make:

declarations of ICs deploying with units in reserve: False I state that unit XXX and YYY and IC are in reserve. AFTER i state that IC joins unit YYY (page 94 - reserves)

 

declarations of units being deployed inside vehicles: False, deploy a vehicle and THAN deploy the unit inside the vehicle (or reserve both and than states that tyhe unit is in the vehicle)

 

declarations of units outflanking, : Yes, I state that reserve them and than declare that they outflan (after eventually attaching them an IC) again page 94

 

Btw, I see that nobody agrees with my point and I will not force you, I will simply play as T.O. and other players use to play. I was just interestad in making this thing more clear