Infiltrate Terminators with Shrike

[Grey Mage]

Your making the assumption that deployed with means placed on the table with at that time.

 

You make declarations of ICs deploying with units in reserve, of units being deployed inside vehicles, of units outflanking, etc all during the deployment phase. You are in fact choosing how they will deploy, and making these choices plain to your opponent.

 

Similarly, you cant choose to not to declare if a unit with infiltrate is deploying via infiltrate or deploying via outflank, the choice must be made during deployment.

 

Choosing to do so with Shrike is exactly the same, and follows the rules. In fact its the only way to be consistent with the rules we are given.

 

 

well well well

 

 

You make:

declarations of ICs deploying with units in reserve: False I state that unit XXX and YYY and IC are in reserve. AFTER i state that IC joins unit YYY (page 94 - reserves)

 

declarations of units being deployed inside vehicles: False, deploy a vehicle and THAN deploy the unit inside the vehicle (or reserve both and than states that tyhe unit is in the vehicle)

 

declarations of units outflanking, : Yes, I state that reserve them and than declare that they outflan (after eventually attaching them an IC) again page 94

 

Btw, I see that nobody agrees with my point and I will not force you, I will simply play as T.O. and other players use to play. I was just interestad in making this thing more clear

Nope- pg. 94 reserves states that all explanations about reserves are done during the deployment step:

 

During deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his reserves to his opponent.

 

Note, "During deployment". The steps after that tell us how to make the declarations, but they are all done during deployment.

 

I put forth that you also put down during deployment wich characters are with wich units on the board, and off them- as per the section on characters "by being deployed in coherency with them."

 

When you place the unit and shrike down, they are being deployed, as a unit, in coherency during the last stages of the deployment phase.

 

Edit: As for the argument of "oh, well it works because they just get outflank!". It doesnt really hold water, C:SM has a character that gives outflank, by the name of Khan- if it was intended that shrike were to give outflank, hed just give outflank.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

***I don't think AdH is arguing against intent ~ it is poorly written rules that do not literally allow Shrike to be deployed with a unit as Infiltrators, is what AdH is arguing.

So far I agree with AdH.

 

pg 94 Reserves is talking about reserves ;) and because Reserves with Infiltrate can be deployed via table-edge or using outflank, they get the mention.

The declaration of ICs with units has nothing to do with Regular Infiltrate deployment.

 

+++

 

Regular units set-up.

(which is when the Terminators must be deployed on TT)

 

Infiltrators set-up

 

Reserves, etc.

 

There is not written a "hold aside rule" to allow the Terminators to not deploy on the TT or in Reserve. If they are not in Reserve, they must be deployed before Shrike Infiltrates.

Regular set-up ends before Infiltrate happens and they never overlap.

 

Saying "Shrike goes with the Terminators" is not allowed ~ the Terms are either on the TT or in Reserves as per usual. Declarations are only for Reserves.

 

+++

 

To reiterate, this is one RAW I would not enforce. But I cannot see it being countermanded by what is written.

[Grey Mage]

Then, Marshal Willheim, when do you make the choice to infiltrate?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

pg 75

"Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units have been deployed."

 

The Terminators must deploy initially OR held in reserve.

 

Shrike deploys.

 

Shrike deploying with Infiltrate never has the chance to be 'imparted' to a squad, because the squad cannot not be deployed on the TT or in Reserve.

 

+++

 

So the rule Infiltrate, obviously meant to be imparted to a squad by Shrike (because ICs on their own is not how 5th ed. is to be played), has not been given the proper mechanism for that to happen.

 

I don't want to come across as painful here -> I have argued a few rules that have not been popular and argued a couple of them in a heavy/ugly way.

I am saying that I would play RAI because I cannot see RAW actually letting it happen, even though it is supposed to.

[Grey Mage]

pg 75

"Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units have been deployed."

 

The Terminators must deploy initially OR held in reserve.

 

Shrike deploys.

 

Shrike deploying with Infiltrate never has the chance to be 'imparted' to a squad, because the squad cannot not be deployed on the TT or in Reserve.

 

+++

 

So the rule Infiltrate, obviously meant to be imparted to a squad by Shrike (because ICs on their own is not how 5th ed. is to be played), has not been given the proper mechanism for that to happen.

 

I don't want to come across as painful here -> I have argued a few rules that have not been popular and argued a couple of them in a heavy/ugly way.

I am saying that I would play RAI because I cannot see RAW actually letting it happen, even though it is supposed to.

You never answered my question.

 

WHEN, do you make the decision and inform your opponent that one of your squads will be infiltrating.

[greatcrusade08]

i sadi something similar to grey mage, although it was a different interpreatation of the same rule.

 

Shrike may start the game as part of the same unit as unit X... you place him in cohernacy during deployment.

 

first part game rule, second part game mechanic..

 

Explaining it to a child, id say he can start the game attached, to show this when you deploy make sure they are within 2" of each other..

 

The fact it says place the IC within coherancy with the unit is poor wording, BUT as the section is written from the ICs perspective its understandable.

 

 

 

as grey mage suggests, during regular deployment, youd point to the hammernators on the edge of he board and say "these are attaching to Shrike, therefore they can infiltrate"

[Marshal Wilhelm]

You never answered my question.

 

WHEN, do you make the decision and inform your opponent that one of your squads will be infiltrating.

 

Short answer; you don't :)

 

Long answer....

 

pg 92

 

"INFILTRATORS AND SCOUTS

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that choose to use their 'infiltrate' special rule). Then they deploy their infiltrators (as described pg 75), and finally they move units with the 'scouts' special rule (see pg 76).

 

pg 94 under the RESERVES section

 

"When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve....

During deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his reserves."

 

The declaring only happens for reserves....

 

+++

 

A decision and inform moment never arrives for Infiltrators.

pg 75 for Infiltrate also never mentions a declaration and inform moment.

 

You deploy the usual guys and he does likewise. As each player deploys his force, he declares which units are in Reserve/who they are attached to/how they arrive (if the have more than one method, à la Land Speeders).

Your Infiltrators are never declared, they just don't get set up.

 

Then Infiltrators do get set-up, after both players have performed the usual deployment procedures.

[Grey Mage]

pg 75

"Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units have been deployed."

 

The Terminators must deploy initially OR held in reserve.

 

 

You never answered my question.

 

WHEN, do you make the decision and inform your opponent that one of your squads will be infiltrating.

 

Short answer; you don't :)

 

Long answer....

 

pg 92

 

"INFILTRATORS AND SCOUTS

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that choose to use their 'infiltrate' special rule). Then they deploy their infiltrators (as described pg 75), and finally they move units with the 'scouts' special rule (see pg 76).

 

pg 94 under the RESERVES section

 

"When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve....

During deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his reserves."

 

The declaring only happens for reserves....

 

+++

 

A decision and inform moment never arrives for Infiltrators.

pg 75 for Infiltrate also never mentions a declaration and inform moment.

 

You deploy the usual guys and he does likewise. As each player deploys his force, he declares which units are in Reserve/who they are attached to/how they arrive (if the have more than one method, à la Land Speeders).

Your Infiltrators are never declared, they just don't get set up.

 

Then Infiltrators do get set-up, after both players have performed the usual deployment procedures.

 

By that logic infiltrators can never set up- because you cannot simply choose to neither deploy them nor hold them in reserves. One or the other must be done, eh? They are illegally out of the game before the infiltration step even happens if we do it this way.

 

Alternatively, they can deploy via infiltrate but NEVER deploy without using that rule, wich would prevent them from flanking. Because it is always deployed after all other units.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

By that logic infiltrators can never set up- because you cannot simply choose to neither deploy them nor hold them in reserves. One or the other must be done, eh? They are illegally out of the game before the infiltration step even happens if we do it this way.

 

Alternatively, they can deploy via infiltrate but NEVER deploy without using that rule, wich would prevent them from flanking. Because it is always deployed after all other units.

 

The Infiltrate unit isn't deployed with the normal guys or declared as a reserve. That they are not setting up 'normally' isn't declared. You choose to do neither (normally or declaring them a reserve) and then set them up after both players have done the 'normal' deployments.

 

All non-Infiltrate units must deploy or be held in reserve. Infiltrate units are an exception to this.

 

pg 75 "Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed"

 

You can choose to not deploy them or hold them in reserve. Neither is done, by choice but without "declaration", and satisfy the requirements of the Infiltrate rule and the exceptions in the 3 Deployment Types.

 

Infiltrators don't have to use Infiltrate.

They can be set-up normally, which is done just by plonking the unit down in the deployment zone.

If they want to use Outflank, they can, you just have to declare them as being reserves when you are deploying the rest of your units.

[Grey Mage]

By that logic infiltrators can never set up- because you cannot simply choose to neither deploy them nor hold them in reserves. One or the other must be done, eh? They are illegally out of the game before the infiltration step even happens if we do it this way.

 

Alternatively, they can deploy via infiltrate but NEVER deploy without using that rule, wich would prevent them from flanking. Because it is always deployed after all other units.

 

The Infiltrate unit isn't deployed with the normal guys or declared as a reserve. That they are not setting up 'normally' isn't declared. You choose to do neither (normally or declaring them a reserve) and then set them up after both players have done the 'normal' deployments.

 

All non-Infiltrate units must deploy or be held in reserve. Infiltrate units are an exception to this.

 

pg 75 "Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed"

 

You can choose to not deploy them or hold them in reserve. Neither is done, by choice but without "declaration", and satisfy the requirements of the Infiltrate rule and the exceptions in the 3 Deployment Types.

 

Infiltrators don't have to use Infiltrate.

They can be set-up normally, which is done just by plonking the unit down in the deployment zone.

If they want to use Outflank, they can, you just have to declare them as being reserves when you are deploying the rest of your units.

You said yourself though, there is no choice.

 

In fact, nowhere in the Infiltrators special rule does it say you can choose to deploy normally, it simply states that you DO have to deploy them last, after both players units have deployed, and then goes on to list further restrictions as to where exactly they can be deployed and how.

 

That the section on deployment says your units chose to use this rule is immaterial, as it also say "as described on page 75." Page 75 does not offer us a choice any more than we have a choice about rage.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

You said yourself though, there is no choice.

 

In fact, nowhere in the Infiltrators special rule does it say you can choose to deploy normally, it simply states that you DO have to deploy them last, after both players units have deployed, and then goes on to list further restrictions as to where exactly they can be deployed and how.

 

That the section on deployment says your units chose to use this rule is immaterial, as it also say "as described on page 75." Page 75 does not offer us a choice any more than we have a choice about rage.

 

The Infiltrate unit deploys after the usual deployments (TT & Reserve) but in the usual Deployment zone. This is how you get around RAW for not switching it off for setting up with the rest of your Army.

 

You can elect to place the Infiltrate unit in reserve, as said in both the Infiltrate rules pg 75 and the Reserves rules pg 94. You make the declaration during the usual deployments time, even though the Infiltrators can't be set up during that time.

[nurglez]

I remember this very same discussion happening quite awhile ago, and I dont remember how it turned out, probably with both sides agreeing to disagree. I would say the intent of shrike's ability is to allow a unit to infiltrate with him, however, the wording on it is frankly terrible.

 

For him to join a squad that doesn't have infiltrate in order to give them infiltrate, they must have already deployed, and so cant infiltrate.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I remember this very same discussion happening quite awhile ago, and I dont remember how it turned out, probably with both sides agreeing to disagree. I would say the intent of shrike's ability is to allow a unit to infiltrate with him, however, the wording on it is frankly terrible.

 

For him to join a squad that doesn't have infiltrate in order to give them infiltrate, they must have already deployed, and so cant infiltrate.

 

That is my point Nurglez *splashes disinfectant around*

I don't even want it to be right, and don't even play it that way.

 

Grey Mage and I are just going through the dance to see if the RAW is really that bad.... it seems it is :)

*continues splashing disinfectant around* :P

[Albion de Heaven]

I remember this very same discussion happening quite awhile ago, and I dont remember how it turned out, probably with both sides agreeing to disagree. I would say the intent of shrike's ability is to allow a unit to infiltrate with him, however, the wording on it is frankly terrible.

 

For him to join a squad that doesn't have infiltrate in order to give them infiltrate, they must have already deployed, and so cant infiltrate.

 

That is my point Nurglez *splashes disinfectant around*

I don't even want it to be right, and don't even play it that way.

 

Grey Mage and I are just going through the dance to see if the RAW is really that bad.... it seems it is :P

*continues splashing disinfectant around* :devil:

 

 

Full quote Marshal, that was my original point ^_^

[Agrab]

sadly, looking at the rules, it is impossible to infiltrate a IC with another unit, unless they both have the rule. PG 48 doesn't allow for it, and the reserve area (94) is only for reserves. Nowhere does it mention joining while infiltrating

[Agrab]

also, the infiltrate rule is lost when joining an unit without it (per BRB), so this is useless

[nurglez]

yes, but the wording of shrike's rule, is that he would give the squad he has joined infiltrate..... yet he cant infiltrate because you cant join a squad until you deploy it, thus the unit is deployed and cant infiltrate.

[dswanick]

also, the infiltrate rule is lost when joining an unit without it (per BRB), so this is useless

 

Not competely useless, as was pointed out earlier. A non-infiltrate unit can be put in reserve, Shrike can be put in reserve with the unit, the unit can now outflank from reserve. I'm still not convinced that this was the intent of the rule, as there are other special charaters which simply give an attached unit outflank, but RAW it's not completely useless.

[Agrab]

also, the infiltrate rule is lost when joining an unit without it (per BRB), so this is useless

 

Not competely useless, as was pointed out earlier. A non-infiltrate unit can be put in reserve, Shrike can be put in reserve with the unit, the unit can now outflank from reserve. I'm still not convinced that this was the intent of the rule, as there are other special charaters which simply give an attached unit outflank, but RAW it's not completely useless.

 

I was unaware of that, which does change it some. That said, as he can not join a unit that is not already in reserves (infiltrate clearly states that it is not a reserve) nor deployed, the infiltrate itself is useless (the outflank part could be handy)

[greatcrusade08]

ok i see where your problem is, your assuming that Shrike has to join the unit by deploying within coherancy of the unit..

this is wrong, it clearly states in the rulebook that he may begin the game already with the unit..

 

This means he has already conferred infiltrate USR on the unit, so whether he is placed within coherancy with the unit or the unit within range of huim doesnt matter, at this point both have the infiltrate USR.

 

Dont get hung up on workding here, it says he may start the game already with the unit... this is black and white, the rest that says by deploying withing coherancy is merely showing how this is reprisented...

He starts with them as a single unit, they get infiltrate USR... simples

 

everyone was quick to say this is merely one interpretation, but considering its valid and it fits with the obvious RAI then maybe i hit the nail on the head

 

edit: what i mean is that if the opposing interpretation makes no sense by RAW then its invalid, the only other logical interpreattion of the rule is the one i put forth, therefore it is more valid, NO?

 

Let me explain my meaning further:

quote says something along the lines of "shrike may start the game already attached to the unit.. by deploying him in coherancy..

 

now if the other unit has already deployed this makes no sense, however if we look ta it as though it says "when you deply them make sure they are within cohernacy" then it makes all the more sense.. deployment is part of the game, if they are already attached before the game then they already have infiltration.. and can then deploy as infiltrators together together aslong as they are in coherancy

[Agrab]

ok i see where your problem is, your assuming that Shrike has to join the unit by deploying within coherancy of the unit..

this is wrong, it clearly states in the rulebook that he may begin the game already with the unit..

 

This means he has already conferred infiltrate USR on the unit, so whether he is placed within coherancy with the unit or the unit within range of huim doesnt matter, at this point both have the infiltrate USR.

 

Dont get hung up on workding here, it says he may start the game already with the unit... this is black and white, the rest that says by deploying withing coherancy is merely showing how this is reprisented...

He starts with them as a single unit, they get infiltrate USR... simples

 

everyone was quick to say this is merely one interpretation, but considering its valid and it fits with the obvious RAI then maybe i hit the nail on the head

 

edit: what i mean is that if the opposing interpretation makes no sense by RAW then its invalid, the only other logical interpreattion of the rule is the one i put forth, therefore it is more valid, NO?

 

Let me explain my meaning further:

quote says something along the lines of "shrike may start the game already attached to the unit.. by deploying him in coherancy..

 

now if the other unit has already deployed this makes no sense, however if we look ta it as though it says "when you deply them make sure they are within cohernacy" then it makes all the more sense.. deployment is part of the game, if they are already attached before the game then they already have infiltration.. and can then deploy as infiltrators together together aslong as they are in coherancy

 

But you can only attach an IC and an unit when either deployed OR when in reserves, infiltrating is neither

This means that you can not join before the game as you are stating

[greatcrusade08]

But you can only attach an IC and an unit when either deployed OR when in reserves, infiltrating is neither

This means that you can not join before the game as you are stating

 

Again your using an interpretation that has proven nosensical (see previous argument)

the actual rule in the BRB states:

Alternatively an IC may begin the game already wiith a unit, by being deployed in cohernacy with them

 

one interpretation is that you have to place the IC next to a unit already on the board... but hang on this then means shrikes rule makes no sense.. it also means Khans outflank makes no sense since he cannot 'deploy' next to a unit and then decide to outflank.. the other interpretation (mine) is that it means you deploy the unit and the Ic within coherancy during the relevant deployment phase..i.e infiltrate.

 

If they are already attached the rule confers and then you may deploy them as infiltrators (aslong as they are in coherancy with shrike for his rule to work)

 

edit: also see pg 48 of BRB under "special rules" it shows that if ICs join aunit with infiltrate then that unit may not infiltrate.. how can this make sense using the 'RAW' you guys put forward..

i say if it makes no sense and CANNOT be applied then your intrepreting wrongly

[Agrab]

But you can only attach an IC and an unit when either deployed OR when in reserves, infiltrating is neither

This means that you can not join before the game as you are stating

 

Again your using an interpretation that has proven nosensical (see previous argument)

the actual rule in the BRB states:

Alternatively an IC may begin the game already wiith a unit, by being deployed in cohernacy with them

 

one interpretation is that you have to place the IC next to a unit already on the board... but hang on this then means shrikes rule makes no sense.. it also means Khans outflank makes no sense since he cannot 'deploy' next to a unit and then decide to outflank.. the other interpretation (mine) is that it means you deploy the unit and the Ic within coherancy during the relevant deployment phase..i.e infiltrate.

 

If they are already attached the rule confers and then you may deploy them as infiltrators (aslong as they are in coherancy with shrike for his rule to work)

 

edit: also see pg 48 of BRB under "special rules" it shows that if ICs join aunit with infiltrate then that unit may not infiltrate.. how can this make sense using the 'RAW' you guys put forward..

i say if it makes no sense and CANNOT be applied then your intrepreting wrongly

 

The rules are quite clear on it, deployment is when the unit is placed on the board. An IC is only allowed to be joined if deployed within coherency OR stated as part of reserves joined. Otherwise, he is not allowed to, per the rules

 

you need to show me where the rules state that you can join during infiltration. The onus is on you, even if it is illogical in the face of Shrike's rules, that doesn't mean that it is automatically the logical one. The BRB defines the timing, you need to show that infiltration (using the BRB, not logic (games workshop hates logic)) that shows it is one of the two conditions (note, outflanking is reserve, so it is allowed there)

[greatcrusade08]

The rules are quite clear on it, deployment is when the unit is placed on the board. An IC is only allowed to be joined if deployed within coherency OR stated as part of reserves joined. Otherwise, he is not allowed to, per the rules

 

What im saying is your definition/interpretation is off, the meaning of the rules are what are in debate here... you need to have an open mind otherwise everything in say will fall on deaf ears...

 

on page 48 of BRB it shopws all the different aspects of joining/leaving a unit..

all concern moving within 2" of a unit or moving out of 2" of a unit (coherancy) taking the one quote:

Alternatively an IC may begin the game already wiith a unit, by being deployed in coherancy with them

on its own merits may lead you to believe that you have to deploy the Ic and squad according to thier independant rules.. having the IC deploy within coherancy of the unit..

however taken into context with the rest of the page, what it says is that you can start the game atatched by deploying in coherancy, i.e you dont have to deploy them seperately and move together turn one.

 

now if you can start the game already attached, then you can point to the unit and Ic off the board before depolyment and say.. these will deploy as a single unit... therefore Shrikes infiltrate will then pass to the unit and the two may deploy as infiltrators

 

edit: proof of this 'system can be found on page 48 under special rules..

for example, if an IC without infiltrate joins a unit with during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate

But according to you the Ic would have to deploy before the infiltrators.. and that wopuld mean the example would be wrong... but how can that be.. i say its your interpretation thats wrong

[Agrab]

The rules are quite clear on it, deployment is when the unit is placed on the board. An IC is only allowed to be joined if deployed within coherency OR stated as part of reserves joined. Otherwise, he is not allowed to, per the rules

 

What im saying is your definition/interpretation is off, the meaning of the rules are what are in debate here... you need to have an open mind otherwise everything in say will fall on deaf ears...

 

on page 48 of BRB it shopws all the different aspects of joining/leaving a unit..

all concern moving within 2" of a unit or moving out of 2" of a unit (coherancy) taking the one quote:

Alternatively an IC may begin the game already wiith a unit, by being deployed in coherancy with them

on its own merits may lead you to believe that you have to deploy the Ic and squad according to thier independant rules.. having the IC deploy within coherancy of the unit..

however taken into context with the rest of the page, what it says is that you can start the game atatched by deploying in coherancy, i.e you dont have to deploy them seperately and move together turn one.

 

now if you can start the game already attached, then you can point to the unit and Ic off the board before depolyment and say.. these will deploy as a single unit... therefore Shrikes infiltrate will then pass to the unit and the two may deploy as infiltrators

 

edit: proof of this 'system can be found on page 48 under special rules..

for example, if an IC without infiltrate joins a unit with during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate

But according to you the Ic would have to deploy before the infiltrators.. and that wopuld mean the example would be wrong... but how can that be.. i say its your interpretation thats wrong

 

this does get interesting as rereading the infiltrating it is defined as deploying. The problem i still see is that you join after being deployed "by being deployed within..." or during reserves. The Termies will not have infiltrate until they are joined, and they can't join earlier than deployment, screwing it up. I think the example only works cause both have infiltrate...

 

this would, for me, be a dice off, though RAW is pretty clear that it can't work

to me, you would deploy the infiltrators, wait for the opponent to deploy one, then place the IC next to them. This simpyl was to clarify that he counts as part of the unit if you infiltrate next to each other (ONLY if they both have it)