Infiltrate Terminators with Shrike

[greatcrusade08]

For those strugglign to understand me ill try to make it simple.

 

page 92 deploy forces:

A note on secrecy: to keep things fair you should always allow your opponent to read your froce roster after a game. In the same spirt, always make clear which squads are embarked on which transport. however before starting to deploy thier armies.. SNIP ....some players prefer full disclosure

 

Two points:

1: before deployment

2: full disclosure, with the ambarked squads as an example this is when ou would declare which unit your IC is attaching to.

 

It is atn this point that shrike grants infiltrate to his unit.. BEFORE deployment.

[Agrab]

For those strugglign to understand me ill try to make it simple.

 

page 92 deploy forces:

A note on secrecy: to keep things fair you should always allow your opponent to read your froce roster after a game. In the same spirt, always make clear which squads are embarked on which transport. however before starting to deploy thier armies.. SNIP ....some players prefer full disclosure

 

Two points:

1: before deployment

2: full disclosure, with the ambarked squads as an example this is when ou would declare which unit your IC is attaching to.

 

It is atn this point that shrike grants infiltrate to his unit.. BEFORE deployment.

 

i understad the idea, but i would never disclose before deployment, after all, that is a huge strategy change and determine if i want to be deployed or not

that said, you still need to show the allowance to join prior to deployment

[greatcrusade08]

this feels like cutting up a persons food.. its probably due to my inept explanations but let me try harder.

 

according to the above it says "always make clear", this is not a chocie, its a demand.. therefore you must declare things like contents of vehicles and Ics with units etc.

 

the next part is that same rule at deabte, two parts the rule and the mechanic

Alternatively an IC may begin the game already wiith a unit

the rule, which has been covered above

 

by being deployed in coherancy with them

the mechanic, as they are a unit they must be deployed in cohernacy afetr all:

 

IC deployed in cohernacy with unit = unit deployed within coherancy of Ic = unit and IC deployed within coherancy of each other.. its all the same thing with the same end result (becuase they unit and Ic are already attached as described above)

[Agrab]

this feels like cutting up a persons food.. its probably due to my inept explanations but let me try harder.

 

according to the above it says "always make clear", this is not a chocie, its a demand.. therefore you must declare things like contents of vehicles and Ics with units etc.

 

the next part is that same rule at deabte, two parts the rule and the mechanic

Alternatively an IC may begin the game already wiith a unit

the rule, which has been covered above

 

by being deployed in coherancy with them

the mechanic, as they are a unit they must be deployed in cohernacy afetr all:

 

IC deployed in cohernacy with unit = unit deployed within coherancy of Ic = unit and IC deployed within coherancy of each other.. its all the same thing with the same end result (becuase they unit and Ic are already attached as described above)

 

the choice is yours does not indicate a requirement. You must declare WHILE deploying, otherwise, nothing

 

now, yet again, show where the BRB allows you to join in a non-deployment non-reserve state. Keep in mind, once a unit is deployed, it can not be altered

[greatcrusade08]

the choice is yours does not indicate a requirement. You must declare WHILE deploying, otherwise, nothing

 

incorrect it doesnt allow for a choice, it says ""you should allow your opponent to read your roster"

"in the same spirit always make clear"

Edited July 28, 2010 by greatcrusade08

[Agrab]

the choice is yours does not indicate a requirement. You must declare WHILE deploying, otherwise, nothing

 

incorrect it doesnt allow for a choice, it says ""you should allow your opponent to read your roster"

"in the same spirit always make clear"

 

end of the paragraph "The choice is yous"

that said, you must indicate while deploying per the deploying rules, otherwise you are bound by your list, even if you don't want to embark

[greatcrusade08]

Nope that bits for showing each other lists before the game, under full disclosure, the bit im looking at is the paragraph before

 

following the procedures to the letter on page 92 BRB deploy forces:

• Choose deployment type.
  
• declare all aspects of your list, which units in which trnsports, which Ics with which unit etc.
  
• follow mission special rules
  
• deploy normal troops, declare reserves at that point
  
• deploy infiltrators
  
• seize iniative
  
• play
  

 

ok as Ics are attached before deployment, infiltrate USR confers

 

edit: even if you dont disclose which Ics are in which unit, the choice is made at that point

Edited July 28, 2010 by greatcrusade08

[Agrab]

where is that?

my 92 ha the following headers:

 

Deploy vs

Note on secrecy

Mission Special

Infiltrators and scouts

Multiple unit choices

Sieze

 

then describes pitched

[greatcrusade08]

under note on secrecy it says always allow opponent to read roster after gane.

always declare which squads are in which transport..

 

under that same spirit of declaration Ics must be declared also.. if you disagree id have to ask what about if you want to put an Ic and unit in a transport..

also please use this logic and apply it to examples shown on pg 48 under special rules and ICs..

Edited July 28, 2010 by greatcrusade08

[greatcrusade08]

Have i won my case yet your honour :)

[Agrab]

under note on secrecy it says always allow opponent to read roster after gane.

always declare which squads are in which transport..

 

under that same spirit of declaration Ics must be declared also.. if you disagree id have to ask what about if you want to put an Ic and unit in a transport..

also please use this logic and apply it to examples shown on pg 48 under special rules and ICs..

 

where does it say anything like what you are stipulating?

 

What I am saying is simple, and please do not attempt to insult me. I am saying that the rules are clear - there are two conditions where the IC can join a unit, and both are in the pre-game steps BUT after the lists are made. Unless you are saying that you can not change your deployment once you make a list, what you are saying is illogical. Furthermore, it simply says make it clear, not a timing for it (it also says show the list AFTER the game)

 

You must make it clear if an IC is attached in reserves, otherwise, he is ONLY if he is within 2 inches (in a transport is within 2). Period. There is no rule regarding infiltrating overriding the others, which you NEED TO SHOW if you want your point to hold

Edited July 28, 2010 by Agrab

[greatcrusade08]

What I am saying is simple, and please do not attempt to insult me. I am saying that the rules are clear - there are two conditions where the IC can join a unit, and both are in the pre-game steps BUT after the lists are made. Unless you are saying that you can not change your deployment once you make a list, what you are saying is illogical. Furthermore, it simply says make it clear, not a timing for it (it also says show the list AFTER the game)

 

You must make it clear if an IC is attached in reserves, otherwise, he is ONLY if he is within 2 inches (in a transport is within 2). Period. There is no rule regarding infiltrating overriding the others, which you NEED TO SHOW if you want your point to hold

 

the rules are not clear hence the whole point of this thread.

you cant deploy an IC in a vehicle after you have already declared which unit is inside it.. you cant deploy two units in one transport... SO you would have had to have declared which Ics are atatched to whcih unit before declaring which unit goes in which transport... (which ic covered under note on secrecy)

It doesnt state that you should declare Ics at this point, but since you MUST have this sorted before then to make Ics in transports viable the its an obvious step to make

[greatcrusade08]

to clarify there are two times an IC can attach to a unit, one is reserves the other is the point ve been arguing... yuor adament it is set in stone, im saying your interpretation is wrong.

 

Alternatively an IC may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherancy with them

..

 

using the argument above that ICs attaching to units have to be declared before deployment, then the rule above can be read differently.. basically that the first half of the rule is the actual rule, the second is the mechanics that you have to make sure they are within coherancy when they are deployed..

if they arent deployed in coheraqncy they cant be considered a unit right?

[greatcrusade08]

Does anyone still think Shrike cant infiltrate with a squad?

I think the main line of reasoning was that ICs can only attach during deployment, i hope i have proved this wrong now and this argument can be put to bed

[Marshal Wilhelm]

you cant deploy an IC in a vehicle after you have already declared which unit is inside it.. you cant deploy two units in one transport... SO you would have had to have declared which ICs are attached to which unit before declaring which unit goes in which transport... (which ic covered under note on secrecy)

It doesnt state that you should declare ICs at this point, but since you MUST have this sorted before then to make ICs in transports viable the its an obvious step to make

 

Why can't an IC be deployed within a transport after it has been set-up? Have you a rule for that?

 

pg 48 "2: Alternatively an IC may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

pg 67 "If an IC .... and a unit are both embarked in the same vehicle, they are automatically joined, just as if the IC was within 2"

 

You can deploy a transport with its unit inside, then deploy the IC in the transport.

As soon as the IC appears in the transport, he is no longer his own unit ~ pg 67 "If an IC .... and a unit are both embarked in the same vehicle, they are automatically joined, just as if the IC was within 2"

 

I am sure there is no rule to support what you said, RAI or no.

 

Embark is used as deployed ~ pg 66 "The entire unit must be embarked on a transport if any part of it is - a unit may never be partially embarked or spread across multiple transport vehicles"

Unless you would argue that this is legal if it happens as deployment :D

But you wouldn't and so embarked is interchangeable with deployed as pivot is interchangeable with turn in place.

 

pg 67 "The only limitation of dedicated transports is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any selected ICs)"

 

So the transport can be deployed with its unit, and any ICs, as long as the capacity is not breached.

[greatcrusade08]

acually that quote is under the passage embarking and disembarking whichn can only be done in the movement phase (pg 66). if you want the IC (or any unit for that matter) to start the game embarked you must declare thus before the game starts and before deployment .. my logic remains intact.

models can only voluntarily embark and disembark in the movement phase

also

always make clear to your opponent which squads are in which transport

 

so you can only start aboard transports if you declare before deployment, this includes ICs

 

edit: furthermore under the same page on dedicated transports it shows that when deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected for plus any (ICs).. so when the vehicle is deployed the unit and Ic are already inside.. a decision which is made before deployment as ive said all along.

why is this so hard for people to work through, everything i have put forward has been correct by RAW and has worked into every other rule i can think of.. and it works, the other suggestion put forward by the OP cant say the same... so wheres the issue?

 

edit: answer me this if

Alternatively an IC may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherancy with them

We have established deployment is part of the game, how can you already start deployment atatched to a unit without actally having deployed them.. it makes no sense by RAW.. whereas if you have already declared which units are atatched to which ICs (and reverse) this quote makes perfect sense by RAW

Edited July 29, 2010 by greatcrusade08

[Marshal Wilhelm]

You don't declare. There is no declare phase, that only happens for Reserves. You just put the transport (and unit) down, then place the IC "in" it.

 

The section on A Note On Secrecy, means you tell Bob that your Unit A is in transport A. It doesn't mean that you "declare", or have a declare phase in which you arrange your ICs and squads together.

You do all your setting up, then tell him what you've done after following the rules. Not, I intend to do this and then do it. You do it and then tell Bob what has happened.

It's just a clarification after the event.

 

Declaration is not needed to deploy a unit in its transport. You do it, and then tell Bob what's happened as a courtesy. A Note On Secrecy is not rules at all, but suggestions on playing Queensbury.

"To keep things fair" and "you should" and "in the same spirit" are suggestions.

 

Embarking and disembarking can only be done in the Movement phase. Yes. I used something for A when it belonged to B ;)

When a unit is deployed in a transport, it is also considered embarked.

When you deploy the transport, and its unit and then the IC; the IC and the unit combine into one unit. The two cannot be within 2" of one another and not be one. Both being within the transport satisfies them as being in coherency with one another.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Marshal Wilhelm

[greatcrusade08]

You don't declare. There is no declare phase, that only happens for Reserves. You just put the transport (and unit) down, then place the IC "in" it.

wrong, in the note on secrecy section it tells us you must tell your opponent which uniot goes in which transport.. if this isnt a declaration i dont know what is.

 

The section on A Note On Secrecy, means you tell Bob that your Unit A is in transport A. It doesn't mean that you "declare", or have a declare phase in which you arrange your ICs and squads together.

You do all your setting up, then tell him what you've done after following the rules. Not, I intend to do this and then do it. You do it and then tell Bob what has happened.

It's just a clarification after the event.

wrong again... deploying inside a vehicle doesnt count as embarking, please provide a quote that disproves me if you must argue .. in the dedicated transports section it merely states "carries the unit" in terms of deploying the vehcile with the unit inside.

since you cant deploy in the vehicle without 'declaring' before deployment, then it stands that you must declare the IC attached before you declare the unit is within the vehicle

 

Declaration is not needed to deploy a unit in its transport. You do it, and then tell Bob what's happened as a courtesy. A Note On Secrecy is not rules at all, but suggestions on playing Queensbury.

"To keep things fair" and "you should" and "in the same spirit" are suggestions.

actually your cleverly misinterpreting the rules.

to keep things fair you should always allow your opponent to read your force roster after a game, in the same spirit always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which vehicles

 

Embarking and disembarking can only be done in the Movement phase. Yes. I used something for A when it belonged to B ;)

When a unit is deployed in a transport, it is also considered embarked.

yes in terms like that, but "embarkation" can only occur in the movement phase or you can start the game being carried by a vehicle by 'declaring' before the deployment phase as above

 

When you deploy the transport, and its unit and then the IC; the IC and the unit combine into one unit. The two cannot be within 2" of one another and not be one. Both being within the transport satisfies them as being in coherency with one another.

Yes this rule is written in the rulebook, under embarkation and disembarkation, which have to occur in the movement phase.. again if you want to startyour Ic in the vehicle it has to be declared

 

since your Ics have to be declared in one form or another, then it stands that all Ics should be declared as joining a unit at this point (what grey mage referredto at the beginning of the thread but was promptly ignored).. before you start deploying you simply point and say, my chaplain gowes with these guys and shrike goes with these guys.

 

also you havent answered my question above, how can a unit start already atatched before deployment, yet can only atatch during deployment.. the argument brought forwards by the 'oppostion' is flawed

Edited July 29, 2010 by greatcrusade08

[Grey Mage]

The section on A Note On Secrecy, means you tell Bob that your Unit A is in transport A. It doesn't mean that you "declare", or have a declare phase in which you arrange your ICs and squads together.

You do all your setting up, then tell him what you've done after following the rules. Not, I intend to do this and then do it. You do it and then tell Bob what has happened.

It's just a clarification after the event.

Exactly like you do with reserves- you dont tell your opponent you intend to decide to put decius the X with the squad of superior doom, you do it, and then you 'declare' to him whats going on and how their drop pod the 'great thudd' will bring them all to battle.

 

In the same way, hes placed with the unit in its rhino, you make mention of it 'declaring' him to be with the squad.

 

Declare:

1. state emphatically and authoritatively.

2. announce: announce publicly or officially; "The President declared war"

 

From the princeton dictionairy.

 

*shrugs*.

 

However, I have no idea what either of you are trying to say towards the actual topic of conversation- Can Shrike infiltrate with a unit of Terminators.

 

My point previously, wich GC08 seems to be referencing, Was in fact that in order for the rules to function properly, you must declare that a unit is infiltrating during the deployment phase. A unit simply, as someone put it, cannot 'be left behind'.

 

Thus, it stands to reason that you must declare/inform/mention/state/communicate to your opponent if an IC is joining any of these infiltrating squads.

 

In wich case, you point at the character and say "Shrike, yeah, hes going to join this devastator squad, yeah the one with one lascannon because I broke the other two. Theyll be infiltrating today." And then you go on about your business. After your both deployed, that squad infiltrates as normal, and the game goes on.

 

The only reason this even came up, IMHO, is because someone took offense to the semi-abusive tactic of dropping 10 Assault Terminators, and perhaps another IC, with fleet 12" away from their battle lines.

[greatcrusade08]

However, I have no idea what either of you are trying to say towards the actual topic of conversation- Can Shrike infiltrate with a unit of Terminators.

 

it was a spin off rules discussion base on my use of the Ic in transport 'declaration' to set a precedent for what you advocated above..

the fact is its not explicitly written that you have to declare, my point is that there is a set precent within the rulebook that shows we must.

 

aslong as you can show you have to declare the Ic is with a unit before the deployment phase then the argument is over tbh

 

The only reason this even came up, IMHO, is because someone took offense to the semi-abusive tactic of dropping 10 Assault Terminators, and perhaps another IC, with fleet 12" away from their battle lines.

id laugh if i saw this... they cant get first turn charges and are prime targets for rapid firing everything <_<

Edited July 29, 2010 by greatcrusade08

[Grey Mage]

id laugh if i saw this... they cant get first turn charges and are prime targets for rapid firing everything <_<

Actually, yes they can.

 

Deploying in cover, 12" away from the enemy- D6 move, D6 Fleet, 6 Assault- up to an 18" charge.

 

I admit, its tricky to have the terrain handy that you can do it with, but its certainly possible with a well placed ruin or hill. Or, as in the case I saw it- the 1 intact bunker on the battlefield, that his opponent obviously intended to move his heavy weapon squad into.

[greatcrusade08]

id laugh if i saw this... they cant get first turn charges and are prime targets for rapid firing everything <_<

Actually, yes they can.

 

Deploying in cover, 12" away from the enemy- D6 move, D6 Fleet, 6 Assault- up to an 18" charge.

 

I admit, its tricky to have the terrain handy that you can do it with, but its certainly possible with a well placed ruin or hill. Or, as in the case I saw it- the 1 intact bunker on the battlefield, that his opponent obviously intended to move his heavy weapon squad into.

 

Meh, im gunna have to respectfully disagree, you have to be out of LOS of the opponents entire army.. in most cases its not a viable tactic

[Thantoes]

id laugh if i saw this... they cant get first turn charges and are prime targets for rapid firing everything <_<

Actually, yes they can.

 

Deploying in cover, 12" away from the enemy- D6 move, D6 Fleet, 6 Assault- up to an 18" charge.

 

I admit, its tricky to have the terrain handy that you can do it with, but its certainly possible with a well placed ruin or hill. Or, as in the case I saw it- the 1 intact bunker on the battlefield, that his opponent obviously intended to move his heavy weapon squad into.

 

Meh, im gunna have to respectfully disagree, you have to be out of LOS of the opponents entire army.. in most cases its not a viable tactic

 

I agree with GC08 especially since to do so means you would have to set up behind cover which would mean moving through it. This would give you a 5/6 chance of falling short. This also disregards the fact that you have to deploy 18 inches away. Even if you move 18 you should, in theory still be out of range as you cant deploy within 18inches. Meaning you have to deploy 18.000000000001 away. Out of charge range.

 

Back on topic. The way I look at it is that this isnt a hidden rule that has suddenly popped up. If all the people running shrike in all those pick up games and in all those tournies are running shrike with a unit and infiltrating on turn one I cant see them ALL being wrong. The rules are clear. Shrike and models in his squad benifit from the infiltrate rule. You can declare that he is attached to a squad before deployment which makes that "his" squad. Cant be much clearer.

[nurglez]

yes but the problem is, that RAW, the rule doesnt make sense, as you cant attach until you deploy, and you cant hold a unit back from deploying them to try and infiltrate them unless they have infiltrate, which they cant get, because you only join a squad when they are deployed.. etc

 

I personally have no problem with someone trying to infiltrate a squad with shrike.

[greatcrusade08]

yes but the problem is, that RAW, the rule doesnt make sense, as you cant attach until you deploy, and you cant hold a unit back from deploying them to try and infiltrate them unless they have infiltrate, which they cant get, because you only join a squad when they are deployed.. etc

 

I personally have no problem with someone trying to infiltrate a squad with shrike.

 

you need to read what ive said, this idea that you cant attach until you deploy is nonsense based upon a mis-interpretation of a single quote...

 

It says clearly you can start the game attached to a unit.. since the game begins with choosing missions and whatnot (before deployment) then by RAW you attach before you deploy, the counter argument comes from the second part of the quote which says "by deploying with coherancy".. this is imply a mechanic.. pointing out that to be part of the same squad when the game begins they must be within 2".. NOT that they have to deploy seperately.

 

I hope you can understand this becuase tbh im sick of explaining it.. the problem isnt the complexity of the issue, just that everyone seems to have gotten this "rule" into thier head, whcih is wrong