Infiltrate Terminators with Shrike

[Ryjak]

I didn't bother to read this extensive and branching debate, as I didn't feel it was necessary.

 

The Nature of 40K

 

There are a few things you as a player should understand when it comes to the structure of 40k. The first and foremost is the Purpose of the rules. The rules are permissive, telling you what you can do, and when necessary for clarification, telling you what you cannot do. This is because the rules are also trying to be the impartial, neutral judge/official, keeping the game fair. Unfortunately, the only way the rules gain any power is when the players all agree to use them, and there is no way to realistically penalize someone for breaking them within the game.

 

Second, for better or worse, the rules are written by Brittish employees to Games Workshop. After 15-some years of 40k rules debates, I've learned that for the Brittish, RAI = RAW. That's why there's a bunch of fluff interjected into the rules themselves. Unfortunately, I'm American, a society founded by a bunch of people who argued violently about semantics in a few books. We have more lawyers per capita by a huge margin, because for us, RAI /= RAW. Period. While that ultimately leads to rock-solid rulebooks for our games, it also leads to really long and boring rulebooks. The NCAA rulebook for Football is 264 pages of dry, clear-cut, concisely worded rules and diagrams. Or, read the Adepticon FAQ, which tries to turn the 40k Rulebook into an ironclad rulebook: The Independent National Warhammer 40,000 Tournament FAQ V 4.0.

 

If you turn to page 87, you can see how they rule on the Shrike Issue, along with Rulebook citations. They flat-out state the RAW do not allow Shrike to Infiltrate a unit, but this FAQ creates a Rule Change to allow Shrike to Infiltrate any unit as long as he is deployed within coherency distance of this unit.

 

The INAT FAQ is a great document, as it serves as an impartial judge/official for a 40k game, and it covers everything. I may not agree with some of their rulings/interpretations, but it leaves little room for arguement if both players agree to use it.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I didn't bother to read this extensive and branching debate, as I didn't feel it was necessary.

 

The Nature of 40K

 

There are a few things you as a player should understand when it comes to the structure of 40k. The first and foremost is the Purpose of the rules. The rules are permissive, telling you what you can do, and when necessary for clarification, telling you what you cannot do. This is because the rules are also trying to be the impartial, neutral judge/official, keeping the game fair. Unfortunately, the only way the rules gain any power is when the players all agree to use them, and there is no way to realistically penalize someone for breaking them within the game.

Infiltrate a unit, but this FAQ creates a Rule Change to allow Shrike to Infiltrate any unit as long as he is deployed within coherency distance of this unit.

 

We all agree with your Ryjak. :P

We all even agree what RAI is.

 

We RAWites are saying that the 'pro-Shrike' people (to coin them) are not playing RAW. They say they are playing RAW.

As soon as you start saying there is an OFFICIAL DECLARE phase, you are "interpreting" things to get other rules to "make sense".

 

I saw that as soon as that is done, you are no longer playing RAW. Then people get annoyed when I say that. By definition, you can't have RAW work two ways.....

and the RAW with common sense in it, is not RAW.

 

I'll be back to respond to GC08s posts.

[Grey Mage]

yes but the problem is, that RAW, the rule doesnt make sense, as you cant attach until you deploy, and you cant hold a unit back from deploying them to try and infiltrate them unless they have infiltrate, which they cant get, because you only join a squad when they are deployed.. etc

 

I personally have no problem with someone trying to infiltrate a squad with shrike.

Of course, the infiltrate rule doesnt work RAW if you go with the idea that there are "phases" of deployment.

[Grey Mage]

Alright, I dont like having to turn posts invisible.

 

Chill.

 

Ill reopen this thread in a couple days.

[Grey Mage]

Thread Opened.

 

First sign of trouble its getting a plasma-bolt to the back of the head.

[Marshal Serion]

There's no rule, according to the RAW interpretation, that specifically allows for an IC to attach to a unit that is Infiltrating. The RAW group also claims that the only times you're allowed to attach an IC outside of the movement phase is during normal deployment (putting them on the table top) and with a unit being held in reserve.

 

 

Riddle me this:

 

 

BRB, page 48 "Special Rules" (emphasis mine)

 

"For Example, if an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate"

 

 

The point is, this example specifically allows for ICs to be "joined" to a unit during deployment without putting them on the table top OR in reserves.

 

This means Shrike can, by a RAW example, join any infantry unit during deployment and, by RAW, confer his special ability on that unit, allowing them to infiltrate.

 

 

It's RAW enough for me and my gaming group.

 

Thoughts?

Edited September 9, 2010 by Marshall Serion

[BrotherMoses]

I see there is a lot of contention with this rule and I can understand why. Here is the way I see it:

 

Wording issues aside, the intent seems obvious in that Shrike can infiltrate with any squad he joins. So yes, infiltrating terminators could happen. HOWEVER:

 

I will say this, Shrike is currently under investigation for heresy. Terminators infiltrating isn't something that you could see happening fairly regularly. Fleeting infiltrating terminators is warp sorcery. Every time a terminator fleets an eldar player cuts himself. All fleeting terminators shall recieve the full measure of justice due them for their dabbling in mysterious powers. The Emperor's justice is the Emperor's mercy and their heresy shall not go unnoticed.

 

So, can you infiltrate terminators with Shrike: Yes.

 

Should you infiltrate terminators with Shrike: No.