Meltaguns vs Flamer/Plasma

[minigun762]

This is a two part question.

1) Is there a point that using more Meltaguns becomes, well pointless?

2) In an all-comers list, how highly do you rank the Flamer and Plasmagun as alternatives to the Meltagun?

 

I have my own beliefs on these points but I also know that good generals need to reevaluate their tactics and weapons from time to time and the meta-game is always changing with each new release.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I always take plasma in tac squads. except in 2kpts i'll bring 3 tac squads with 2 plasma guns/lascanns and one multi melta/meltagun

 

I leave the melta mainly to my sternguard w/combis and landraiders w/MM

 

I rank it like this(for all comers):

1.plasma

2.melta

3.flamer

 

and remember when playing all comers you're going to see the most powered armoured armies. if you fight necrons plasma is great. if you end up with tyranids, plasma works great. etc etc etc

 

if you feel the need for flamers which some people do, myself included occassionally. give your sgts combi flamers

[Tanhausen]

1.- Too many meltas? Depens on what your local meta-game is: if you play vs all mech lists, meltas are you friends. But remember that once you run out of prefered targets... what are you going to use the melta for? So you have to balance out. Number-wise, I'd say having 4-6 tank killers (be it meltaguns, meltacannons, meltabombs, chain fist and similar) is usually enough. At 2k I run 5 chainfists (in 5 squads), 2 MM (LS) and 1 vindicator.

 

2.- Plasma is the best weapon vs terminators. It can pump out a decent amount of fire and the only drawback is the gets hot issue. However, its more versatile than melta and can even target light vehicles.

 

3.- Flamers are probably the best assault weapon. Its cheap, you ALWAYS hit, it negates cover... what else do you want? If used properly, you can deliver easily 2-4 wounds and since you are going to assault, any casualty means they are going to hit back less :)

 

4.- Missile launchers, just to round it up ^_^ The most versatile heavy weapon, jack of all trades but... master of none :P Good vs light vehicles, dense infantry, MC, Instant Death... however, you have to remain stationary, which is never the best idea!

 

Hope it helps!

[Giga]

This depends on your local metagame. If most armies you fight are meched up and/or elite in some way, then getting many flamers is pointless and having a ton of meltaguns becomes a priority.

 

I'm having these doubts lately, too. I usually run my tacticals with flamer+combiflamer, but I'm seriously considering overcoming my dislike of single meltaguns (I feel there should be at least two per unit) and actually rolling my tac squads with the meltagun+powerfist+missilelauncher+rhino combination, or keeping one tac squad flamer-happy and giving the other a meltagun.

 

I'm even considering the meltagun+combiflamer+powerfist+missilelauncher+rhino combination. A local SoB player runs his SoB units with a meltagun and flamer combo, and he says it works great as the meltagun in the squad is scary even when it doesn't do anything (people are reluctant to drive their land raiders close to even a single meltagun). This also seems nice in that it gives the squad some nice versatility, too.

 

The only thing that keeps me from doing this is my fear of being unable to deal with tyranid players, as local nids here tend to take a few units of ~30 hormagaunts or 10+ genestealers or stuff like that, and having those dual flamer templates from my tactical squads really helps there.

[mowglie]

I have to say I'm a bit addicted to Flamer. I don't usually combat squad, so I don't like having Melta in my tactical squads. If I'm close enough to melta, I'm close enough to rapidfire, and I'd rather shoot something my whole squad can hurt.

 

I generally leave anti-tank to anti-tank (unless I'm sniping from my baseline with missile launchers).

 

Can you have too much dedicated anti-tank? Depends what it is. Don't bring a trio of tri-las predators! Ye olde MM/HF speeder is still very good if it doesn't find a target for its MM. Even the MMAB is still a pair of fast, turbo-boosting, relentless, multi-wound bolters if your opponent didn't bring any tanks. Good for contesting objectives on the last turn!

 

I'm more worried about the unflexible stuff. E.g. riflemen kind of suck if your opponent brings a horde of boyz (or if he brings a wall of AV13, or if he's footslogging with 3+ saves).

[Paulochromis]

I rank it like this(for all comers):

1.plasma

2.melta

3.flamer

Interestingly, GW price the weapons in that order too.

[muadib02]

I tend to just mix it up. I use pairs of Grey Hunter squads leap frogging. One with 2 plasma, and one with melta and flamer. They cover each other and maximize the pain issued.

[DarkGuard]

I have plenty of anti-MEQ in my Vindicators and Sternguard, so go with double melta (MG/MM) in a Rhino with my Tactical Squad. Not the best match up due to disparity of ranges and weapon type, but they give me a couple of shots of opportunity is I stand still, and the meltagun more adequately backs up my multi-melta bikes.

 

So as far as all-comers is concerned, it depends on the rest of your army. If everything is geared for anti-infantry give your Tactical Marines melta. If everything is towards anti-mech give them flamers to take out the troops. If its more generalist go for the plasma so they can do both.

[Koremu]

I'm having these doubts lately, too. I usually run my tacticals with flamer+combiflamer, but I'm seriously considering overcoming my dislike of single meltaguns (I feel there should be at least two per unit) and actually rolling my tac squads with the meltagun+powerfist+missilelauncher+rhino combination, or keeping one tac squad flamer-happy and giving the other a meltagun.

 

What's wrong with Meltagun and Combi-Melta, exactly?

 

The only thing that keeps me from doing this is my fear of being unable to deal with tyranid players, as local nids here tend to take a few units of ~30 hormagaunts or 10+ genestealers or stuff like that, and having those dual flamer templates from my tactical squads really helps there.

Multi-Melta/Heavy Flamer Land Speeders.

[Validar]

Personally, I'm a melta man. Sure, I usually kit up my squads a bit differently here and there, but in general, I always get more for the buck in a melta, if we're talking tacticals here.

 

The flamer is okay, but really single purpose. It isn't going to kill elite units with high toughness, good saves, more wounds etc. and tanks/transports just laugh at it. On the other hand it is free - fair enough.

 

The plasma - melta discussion, though:

 

Plasma: Rapid fire. str 7. Gets hot. 24"

 

Melta: Assault, str 8, melta. 12"

 

To me the melta just looks better. Against transports/tanks of any kind (even landraiders!) the melta is just better hands down. It is an assault weapon, so no need to worry about movement or ability to assault. Sure, the meltagun has shorter range, but I would never just have 5 men hang about just to shoot at something farther away, I'd much rather get them in their face.

And sure, the rapid fire on the plasma is neat against guys like terminators. You can potentially take two of those down with that gun alone, and chances are decent! And you don't want into close combat with them anyway. Then again, you still have gets hot to worry about...

The meltagun can only take one guy, true, but it can crack open those tanks and transports too (allowing you to assault what is inside due to its assault nature!) and it instant kills things at t4 (like characters from marine codicii or obliterators!). And there is no gets hot.

 

As I said, I'm a biased melta man. I think I'd take the melta even if the prices were equal, and I'm simply not going to pay an extra 5 points for it ;)

[Jackelope King]

Melta. Flamers. Plasma.*

 

Why?

 

Melta threatens vehicles. Plasma doesn't.

 

"But wait!" I hear you cry. "Plasma is S7! And that's good enough for popping transports, right? Don't you praise the Autocannon for this?"

 

Autocannons have a 48" range, and come on more mobile platforms, so you're popping transports from the word "go". Plasma... doesn't. I played against a Marine list this week with a few odd plasma pistols thrown in which started peppering my tanks with plasma on turn 4 or so. Not even a glancing hit. While my autocannons destroyed 2 of his three Rhinos on turn 1. See the difference?

 

"But plasma kills Marines better! And Terminators!"

 

Yup. Great. Don't care. At 2000 points and less, Plasma costs 150% what Melta costs in most places. So you can spam 1.5x as many meltaguns, and have about 75% as many shots as an equivalent expenditure of plasma does. Oh, and you threaten tanks all the way up to Land Raiders. All the time. (Thank you, AP1).

 

Surprisingly, almost none of my objection to plasma comes from the "Gets hot!" rule. It's annoying, and its annoyance increases greatly as you try to spam plasma, but it remains just that: annoying at worst. My objection to it comes down to melta threatening a lot more models on the table and being cheaper to boot.

 

Flamers are an entirely different beast altogether. Ignoring cover is good. Codex: Space Marines armies are traditionally designed for the close-range firefight. And flamers are great in a close-ranged firefight, especially against light infantry (which Bolters are already pretty nice against). And they're free to a 10-man Tactical Squad. So long as you're taking melta elsewhere (especially if you're packing a Multimelta and a combi-Melta), I can almost never disagree with taking that free flamer in a tactical squad, however much I love meltas.

 

*This order only changes at 2500 points, when volume of fire becomes critical, and I grudgingly admit that plasma starts to be worth it. When you look across the board and see 60+ T6 Sv3+ Tyranids coming at you, which you will at this points value, then plasma earns its place on the table.

[minigun762]

Yup. Great. Don't care. At 2000 points and less, Plasma costs 150% what Melta costs in most places. So you can spam 1.5x as many meltaguns, and have about 75% as many shots as an equivalent expenditure of plasma does. Oh, and you threaten tanks all the way up to Land Raiders. All the time. (Thank you, AP1).

 

Thats true but the same logic you use for Autocannons vs Plasmaguns also applies to Plasmaguns vs Meltaguns.

 

Having 2x the max range and 2x the max number of shots gives 3x the amount of shots on average.

 

 

For some reason, I think the Flamer can often be the hardest to justify because its only useful against exposed infantry which is uncommon. Couple this with it being the exact same strength/AP as the Bolter and it seems lacking.

Having said that, few things are as awesome as hitting a big horde squad and stacking 10+ wounds from a single weapon.

[lord gunthar]

I completely agree with jackelope king.

 

Meltas is amazing, in my 1750 chaos list I have 3 chaos marine squads with dual meltas, and 1 with dual flamers.

The melta deals with any vehicles easy, 6 meltaguns hidden in rhinos will blow up a land raider no problem, and they also have the ability to id toughness 4 things.

Flamers are great too, for a measily 5 points ( or free if you are a space marine ) you get a weapon that has the potantial to murder any horde heading in your direction, it also has the ability to remove the contents of a building without destroying it which can be a lifesaver.

 

If terminators are a problem, take plasma cannons or a vindicator, leave the plasma guns ( and the plasma pisotols ) at home.

[Giga]

What's wrong with Meltagun and Combi-Melta, exactly?

Two things;

 

1) price (a tac squad with powerfist, meltagun, combimelta, free heavy weapon and rhino would cost a whooping 245 pts!)

2) I don't have any combimeltas (well, actually I do have one, but I was planning to give it to my nurgle terminators) and no way to get them short of converting or buying yet another commander box (paypal don't work in serbia, so no ordering from bitz sites)

 

I considered taking Stelek's advice and running meltagun+combimelta+multimelta+rhino tac squads, but I'm reluctant to lose the powerfists as I really like them and don't really feel safe if my forward-acting tac squads don't have them. :/

Multi-Melta/Heavy Flamer Land Speeders.

See, I would agree 100% here, except:

 

I rarely have to deal with tyranid infantry until it's like turn 2 or 3, and then it's either outflanking genestealers or a generally footslogging horde (those 30 hormagaunts are gonna take at least 2 turns to get anywhere close to my lines, and usually 3). So, by the time these little bastards do get close to be taken out by my heavy flamers, my speeders are either dead, damaged, or I need all the melta I can get to take out those monstrous creatures before they charge.

 

This creates another problem; using my tacticals with meltaguns means I'd be having to change my tactics from "kill MCs when they're still far away and then assault one-or-two surviving MCs with th/ss termies once they get close", to "prepare to go in and take them out in close range and possibly suffer counter-assaults if your plan fails and they live through meltagun shooting".

 

TBH, the main problem here is that - like any marine chapter - I'm struck in tradition (dual flamer tac squads in rhinos) and am naturally unwilling to break those taboos (changing my tac squads role from anti-infantry to a more mixed anti-infantry/anti-vehicle play). :/

 

EDIT: (on a related note, I'm noticing I'm becoming a true stagnant Imperium guy; I'm being overly protective of my own "traditional" ways of play, am getting rather disconnected "emotionally" when fighting xenos armies (when fighting human armies, I feel sorry for my opponent when he has bad dice rolls, but when I fight xenos I don't care - they're filthy xenos, I ain't supposed to identify with them! I also have a natural inclination to play ruthlessly against them), and am feeling reluctant to use dice other then my own :|)

[Fetterkey]

If you're using Rhinos, I don't think that melta is the best option. I tend to run Tactical Squads with meltaguns as Combat Squads in Razorbacks and Tactical Squads with flamers as standard configuration in Rhinos. I find that the extra bolter fire from a Rhino squad synergizes well with the flamers, whereas with meltas the bolter fire is often wasted and therefore the number of extra models should be kept to a minimum.

[Koremu]

What's wrong with Meltagun and Combi-Melta, exactly?

Two things;

 

1) price (a tac squad with powerfist, meltagun, combimelta, free heavy weapon and rhino would cost a whooping 245 pts!)

2) I don't have any combimeltas (well, actually I do have one, but I was planning to give it to my nurgle terminators) and no way to get them short of converting or buying yet another commander box (paypal don't work in serbia, so no ordering from bitz sites)

 

I considered taking Stelek's advice and running meltagun+combimelta+multimelta+rhino tac squads, but I'm reluctant to lose the powerfists as I really like them and don't really feel safe if my forward-acting tac squads don't have them. :/

1) It's really effective, I use that exact squad a LOT

2) Fair enough, although I found it very easy to create a side-by-side Combi with a regular Meltagun and Bolter

 

Regarding that tri-melta Tactical Squad - don't. Multi-Meltas do NOT synergise well with Meltaguns, odd to say. None of their range banding prioritises the same activity.

 

18-24", you're just looking at a single shot from an expensive squad.

12-18", the Multi-Melta wants to sit still, but the Meltagun wants to close 6" for the same eventual effect.

6-12", again the MM wants to stay still for Melta dice, but the Meltagun wants to close - in addition the Assault limitations contradict.

and under 6" both weapons could remain still, but you still sacrifice Assault ability.

 

I'd always use a Missile Launcher in a Meltagun Squad. Especially one with a Combi-Melta.

Conversely I would always use a Plasma Gun in a Multi-Melta Squad.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm a huge fan of plasma due to one very important fact: volume of fire. With plasma guns, you get double the shots you get from meltas. S7 is good enough to plink most APCs -- Giga makes a decent point about the range, I'll admit -- but its also enough to wound *most* anything on a 2+ and AP2 is just as good at killing Terminators and FnP models as AP1. In my mind, Tactical Squads should concentrate on killing infantry, and plasmaguns have the ability to kill twice as many infantry models per turn as meltaguns do.

[pattison]

In most of the cases I take a MG and a FL in my tacticals (they're combat squadding).

If there is a 3rd they most likely to get an other MG. The flamer is cheap and adds a lot to a rapid fire in most of the cases, but the MG is just so nice to have for 5 points.

My opponents tend to forget that there is a melta in most of my Razorbacks and it's just so much fun to hop out and pop a nearby vehicle...

 

About plasma weapons:

- Plasma pistol: I almost never take it. Short range, single shot and the 'gets hot' is getting a too big risk for all this. Oh and it's very expensive pointswise

- Plasma gun: I love it, it's really nice as a rapid weapon. The problem with it is that a FL or a MG is more needed in the same squad, so I don't have the space for it. Still great.

- Plasma cannon: I always take it, my favourite gun in the game for some reason. I'm addicted to it, enough said.

[Giga]

1) It's really effective, I use that exact squad a LOT

Yepp, I thought about it for a while yesterday and decided I was gonna give it a shot. Am almost done assembling my first combimelta+powahfist sergeant with the combimelta I have. Will buy yet another commander box these days for the 2nd sergeant. :)

 

Will proxy it today anyway, and see how it goes.

[chapter master 454]

Personally, I hate man-ported melta bar in the form of melta bombs.

 

If I had to choce between flamer and melta, I'd chose the flamer. Meltas are somewhat of the brave mans weapon and often the sight of one doesn't exactly strike as much fear and regonised pain as the plasma puts out. The melta being able to charge afterwards is somewhat lack luster to me and personally, you only feel the real benefit from paying the points for melta if you get up in their face that is 6". Now I speak as an earth style player and so far any melta I see if actually a good sign: means all their anti-tank comes when my land raiders get their main objective done. Sorry but having to be within charge range of a tank is something I would question two things: 1 is how did that tank get into such a place and how the heck did your guys get their? I would prefer the power of a lascannon over the multi-melta if i was asked however I make heavy use of plasma cannons, missle launchers, flamers and plasma guns.

 

Also in my experience: melta is barely trusted, even tank mounted MM are often questioned to fire if an assault cannon can fire at the target at 12" or less (it's there mainly for if the tank can fire more than 1 weapon against a tank). Put mildly, meltas may as well be combis because at that range and your firing at a tank you are most likely about to feel someones power sword to the back of your bonce.

 

edit: seems I was a little void-minded here. The comment about being earth then being within assault range is actually badly done to the point I should shoot myself. What meant was that as earth they don't have the range to have any true effect without telling me I screwed up holding them back while inversly if I run my raider rush then the meltas become more of a finishing line rather than a kill-zone.

[Brother Valerius]

Since many cite melta as the preferred method to take down AV13/AV14, what do you tend to use if not melta? Just curious, as I don't like melta weapons all that much either and would rather avoid them if possible.

[Meatman]

Well, only tau have the ability to reliably and effectively take down AV14 at range. We have to rely on lascannons or strength 10 blast templates (vindi, orbital bombardment). And lascannons only have a 1/3 change to glance or penetrate when they hit. Melta has a 58% chance to penetrate inside the 2D6 range and is AP1, so it is much more reliable and effective. This is why people like fast melta against AV 14.

 

 

The only other reliable way is to spam lascannons :S

[Koremu]

Well, only tau have the ability to reliably and effectively take down AV14 at range

 

Lance Spam says hi. And wants to introduce you to his big brother, the Fire Prism.

[chapter master 454]

Since many cite melta as the preferred method to take down AV13/AV14, what do you tend to use if not melta? Just curious, as I don't like melta weapons all that much either and would rather avoid them if possible.

 

I have often ether a conversion beamer at max range, a TLLC, 2 lascannon sponsons and 2 assault cannons. If not that then my three land raiders pack 3 MMs between them with two armed with TLAsCs and one mounts 2 TLLCs. I am known to use three land raiders so I tend to live by the ruling of 'If I can't beat it then I don't use it' aproach. Besides Melta is quite focused on tank hunting which while yes, the short range makes you agressive but generally I only mount MMs on my land raiders and land speeders (which I may say, land speeders are a rare thing in my army).

 

On another note my short ranged tank killing comes down more to chain-fists and melta bombs rather than melta-guns and multi-meltas (and multi-meltas are so paradoxical: longer range for the melta rule to kick in, so you move in for it, the weapon though is heavy so you can't move and fire. The weapon is just a bad design idea unless you plan to go into cities then I would say it's use would be devastatingly good). Basicly I believe in 40k tanks need to be threatened at range to have their effect reduced, not telling them that they can just side step you multi-meltas as to avoid their powerful melta rule, lascannons tend to be my only concern when I field land raiders (I rarely face tau and even then I have yet to put my land raiders to them).

 

Oh and lance spam can say hi to monoliths. Tau are the only race who LEGALLY* take down even the heaviest armour without problem.

 

*Legally: in terms of how I see it, lance rule is a unique idea but is at the same time somewhat off-beat. Yes each race needs to be able to bring down heavies but come on? aren't eldar able enough with their OP holofield tanks who dump fire dragons next to me turn1-2 without giving them the ability to take down my land raiders. Lascannon vs. holofield falcon:0.047 autocannon vs holofield falcon:0.024 Bright lance vs. land raider:0.072. I'm sure those numbers are right, and they aren't blooming fair (both were applied with the idea of destroying in one turn. The bright lance actually kills a land raider far faster than an autocannon and lascannon combined can take down falcon with holofields.)

[Brother Valerius]

Thanks for the pointers. Lascannon spam it is!

 

I have thought about sticking a lascannon in a tactical squad, and giving them Tank Hunters with Sicarius. It isn't as nice as if I could give it to a devastator squad, but it does at least give me one (effectively) str 10 lascannon shot. Kind of expensive to take Sicarius just for that ability, but as I'm painting my army to be 2nd company UM, it's fluffy, so I'd kind of want to run him anyway. >.>