Meltaguns vs Flamer/Plasma

[Warprat]

Thanks for the pointers. Lascannon spam it is!

 

I have thought about sticking a lascannon in a tactical squad, and giving them Tank Hunters with Sicarius. It isn't as nice as if I could give it to a devastator squad, but it does at least give me one (effectively) str 10 lascannon shot. Kind of expensive to take Sicarius just for that ability, but as I'm painting my army to be 2nd company UM, it's fluffy, so I'd kind of want to run him anyway. >.>

 

 

Rules question: If you combat squad the Tactical squad, does the Sicarius bonus apply to both? If so, then a melta, combi-melta, las cannon squad begins to look pretty sweet.

[pattison]

Thanks for the pointers. Lascannon spam it is!

 

I have thought about sticking a lascannon in a tactical squad, and giving them Tank Hunters with Sicarius. It isn't as nice as if I could give it to a devastator squad, but it does at least give me one (effectively) str 10 lascannon shot. Kind of expensive to take Sicarius just for that ability, but as I'm painting my army to be 2nd company UM, it's fluffy, so I'd kind of want to run him anyway. >.>

 

 

Rules question: If you combat squad the Tactical squad, does the Sicarius bonus apply to both? If so, then a melta, combi-melta, las cannon squad begins to look pretty sweet.

 

It says: "One Tactical squad in an army that includes Sicarius can have one of the following special rules at no additional cost:"

That means that he needs to be attached to the squad. Technically a combat squad is a 5 man tactical squad, and obviously he cannot be attached to 2 squads at the same time.

So unfortunately no.

What about having Multi-melta, meltagun and combi-melta in a tactical squad and combat squadding them in a way to have all these in one half?

Yeah, the other half will be kind of unusable, but they may still sit on a home objective in a rhino...

 

Other solution may be to have a multi-melta and a plasmagun as heavy/spec weaponry. S8 AP2 rapid is not that bad, plus it has the same max range as the MM.

So that way you can have a mid-range tank hunter squad, and the other half may still include the sarge with arbitrary equipment.

[Cedric]

Rules question: If you combat squad the Tactical squad, does the Sicarius bonus apply to both? If so, then a melta, combi-melta, las cannon squad begins to look pretty sweet.

 

It says: "One Tactical squad in an army that includes Sicarius can have one of the following special rules at no additional cost:"

That means that he needs to be attached to the squad. Technically a combat squad is a 5 man tactical squad, and obviously he cannot be attached to 2 squads at the same time.

So unfortunately no.

What about having Multi-melta, meltagun and combi-melta in a tactical squad and combat squadding them in a way to have all these in one half?

Yeah, the other half will be kind of unusable, but they may still sit on a home objective in a rhino...

 

Other solution may be to have a multi-melta and a plasmagun as heavy/spec weaponry. S8 AP2 rapid is not that bad, plus it has the same max range as the MM.

So that way you can have a mid-range tank hunter squad, and the other half may still include the sarge with arbitrary equipment.

 

You're reading Secarius rule wrong.

"One Tactical squad in an army that includes Sicarius..."

Note that it doesn't read "a squad lead by Sicarius or similar.

Thus you get the squad bonus as long as Sicarius is in the army list.

 

I also believe that both combat squads would get the same bonus.

They are bought as a full tactical, given the bonus, and then possibly split upon deployment.

[pattison]

You're reading Secarius rule wrong.

Now I think I get it.

It's actually "One Tactical squad in an army that includes Sicarius..." instead of "One Tactical squad in an army that includes Sicarius...".

[minigun762]

One thing I always do is back up a melta gun with a power fist. Both have the same effective range (point blank) and both can threaten any tank. This gives my troop squads some added anti tank and frees me up to use other weapons elsewhere. I mentioned at the start that I have a plan. Currently its a rough ratio of 2:1:1 for melta plasma and flamer. I find the plasma and flamer.keep me honest against MC and hordes while still focusing on the mech meta game.

[Warprat]

One thing I always do is back up a melta gun with a power fist. Both have the same effective range (point blank) and both can threaten any tank. This gives my troop squads some added anti tank and frees me up to use other weapons elsewhere. I mentioned at the start that I have a plan. Currently its a rough ratio of 2:1:1 for melta plasma and flamer. I find the plasma and flamer.keep me honest against MC and hordes while still focusing on the mech meta game.

 

What heavies do you pair up with them? How about combi-bolters on sarges, do you double up?

 

 

I have found flamer, combi-flamer, plasma cannon to be an effective combination. When running the squad whole, the plasma cannon rarely fires, unless something really, really nasty is approaching, usually the squad is manuvering for rapid fire and flamer shots, or assaulting with flamer and pistols. If the squad takes a big hit and is down to 3-4 men, the plasma cannon opens up (assuming it survived of course), annoying the hell out of people.

I run the squad whole in kill point missions, and when facing shooty armies. If forced to play kill points against close combat armies, the squad will try to get off a couple long range shots standing still. Shooty armies get assaulted.

 

When facing assaulty armies, I generally combat squad. The plasma cannon is deadly enough to waste a whole five of my men on, and usually the target of any heavy weapons. I get at least half of my kills with those things, usually 2-4 guys per shot. I blow up transports and nuke the huddled survivors. I play against the mech army's weakness. Stranded troops have to group up. The double flamer combo is fairly deadly as well, for a small 5 man unit. I run them without power weapons and only back them up with melta bombs. I save the power weapon points for more tactical termies, or a good chunk of dreadnought. Both of those options help to add more firepower to take down transports, setting the enemy up for more plasma cannon shots.

 

I am not suggesting that All Foot is the best option to take. The lack of mobility is a huge handicap. But, it does force you to learn how to really use your squads abilities to the max, which is why I am doing it.

 

Land Raiders and other heavily armed tanks give me fits, of course. Which is why I have been trying out a combi-melta, melta, las cannon squad. Might do well with a power fist as backup, instead of the melta bombs... So far, I have just been going with the meltas. Since I run (literally sometimes) an all foot army, I just don't have the mobility to make melta super effective. I am a bit underwhemed so far, because my foot squad lacks the mobility to make the meltas effective, and the las cannon has a low rate of fire. Might be the time to bring in my drop pod... I am considering scouts/storm, as well.

 

Warprat ;)

[minigun762]

Heavy weapons are for the fools of the corpse god.

I play 2x special with my chaos marines

[Warprat]

Heavy weapons are for the fools of the corpse god.

I play 2x special with my chaos marines

 

I've always enjoyed playing against Chaos. Love to use my foolish plasma cannons on them... it makes my loyalist heart chuckle.

 

Sorry, forgot you only play the "bad guys." Anyone else?

[minigun762]

Heavy weapons are for the fools of the corpse god.

I play 2x special with my chaos marines

 

I've always enjoyed playing against Chaos. Love to use my foolish plasma cannons on them... it makes my loyalist heart chuckle.

 

Sorry, forgot you only play the "bad guys." Anyone else?

 

I can toss in my 2 cents on what I would do if I played the good guys.

 

Naturally the PG is the first choice for a sit and shoot squad, but with the option to combat squad your units, there is alot less incentive to try and pair the weapons up because in either case, you're going to have wasted Bolter shots. If you want to keep the unit together, I think the Missile Launcher is the best option. At long range range its all about the Missile Launcher but at medium range, the Bolters and Plasma can join in. Against an exposed infantry squad, the Bolter/Plasma/Frag combo will help stack wounds on them fairly reliably. Against armor or an MC, the Plasma/Krak have a decent chance of killing it. Up close, you are normally better moving and rapid firing and in that case, the extra Bolter shots cover the lack of a Frag against infantry and the extra Plasma shot helps mitigate the loss of the Krak missile.

 

I make the assumption that the primary heavy weapon of a Tac squad is the Plasma Cannons simply because its only 5 points and it is a valid threat to everything besides AV13/14 armor. This immediately brings to mind the option of taking a Meltagun as your special, as its made to handle those high AV targets that the PC fails at. Of course to use this well on the battlefield, you have to combat squad the unit, either that or keep the Meltagun as a "what if" weapon only which might be too wasteful for most people.

 

Lastly, I would take Flamer/Multi-Melta together. The reason is that while the two weapons don't overlap at all, they both excel in their respective field so it gives that squad some real options. This is the kind of "backup" squad that I'd use to support other units or replace an anti-tank unit that was destroyed for example. Keep this squad together in a Rhino and include a Power Fist to maximize your options.

[Warprat]

I can toss in my 2 cents on what I would do if I played the good guys.

 

Naturally the PG is the first choice for a sit and shoot squad, but with the option to combat squad your units, there is alot less incentive to try and pair the weapons up because in either case, you're going to have wasted Bolter shots. If you want to keep the unit together, I think the Missile Launcher is the best option. At long range range its all about the Missile Launcher but at medium range, the Bolters and Plasma can join in. Against an exposed infantry squad, the Bolter/Plasma/Frag combo will help stack wounds on them fairly reliably. Against armor or an MC, the Plasma/Krak have a decent chance of killing it. Up close, you are normally better moving and rapid firing and in that case, the extra Bolter shots cover the lack of a Frag against infantry and the extra Plasma shot helps mitigate the loss of the Krak missile.

 

I make the assumption that the primary heavy weapon of a Tac squad is the Plasma Cannons simply because its only 5 points and it is a valid threat to everything besides AV13/14 armor. This immediately brings to mind the option of taking a Meltagun as your special, as its made to handle those high AV targets that the PC fails at. Of course to use this well on the battlefield, you have to combat squad the unit, either that or keep the Meltagun as a "what if" weapon only which might be too wasteful for most people.

 

Lastly, I would take Flamer/Multi-Melta together. The reason is that while the two weapons don't overlap at all, they both excel in their respective field so it gives that squad some real options. This is the kind of "backup" squad that I'd use to support other units or replace an anti-tank unit that was destroyed for example. Keep this squad together in a Rhino and include a Power Fist to maximize your options.

 

 

You make some interesting points...

 

A good part of what to take depends on if you combat squad or not. I have been appoaching the decision based on the full squad splitting to face a certain enemy. So, melta/las cannon divides against armor, plasma cannon/flamer divides againt infantry. Giving me the twice the tools.

 

My squads, when whole, are still geared for a specialty, but still have massed bolters and the bodies to do the normal jobs a Tac squad takes on. There is a long range weapon in each squad, and a double special (special + combi-special.)

 

 

Your approach seems to be more to generalize and be able to take on a wider number of different targets when using the whole squads. When combat squadding, each of the two halves support each other. The multi-melta has a short range, but so do the flamers. If the multi melta blows up a vehicle, the flamers can hit the huddled survivors. Same thing with the melta/plasma cannon, except in this cases the ranges are far different.

 

I can see both aproaches having merit. I find it amusing, however, that you prefer specialization for your Chaos squads with special weapons, but would give Loyalist squads a more generalist touch. Am I allowed to say that...

 

The plasma gun/missile launcher does seem to be a good all around. Will have to start using that, as it pretty much meets in the middle of both our systems (If you played Loyalist, of course...)

 

 

Thanks for the post!

 

Warprat ;)

[minigun762]

Funny you should mention specializing my chaos squads because my all time favorite loadout for CSMs is flamer/melta/fist because its the ultimate in flexibility

[Warprat]

Funny you should mention specializing my chaos squads because my all time favorite loadout for CSMs is flamer/melta/fist because its the ultimate in flexibility

 

See what happens when I assume something...

 

 

What's your strategy minigun? How do you use your flexability?

 

Warprat ;)

[minigun762]

Basic plan with chaos is simple. Field many flexible units of CSMs in rhinos and support them with princes and defilers. Not having a death star unit means that I don't have a vulnerable linchpin unit that has to live for me to win. For tactical squads though, you're best net is to use them as support for your specialists like TH/SS terminator. They are your backup option which lends itself to a generalist loadout.

[Warprat]

Basic plan with chaos is simple. Field many flexible units of CSMs in rhinos and support them with princes and defilers. Not having a death star unit means that I don't have a vulnerable linchpin unit that has to live for me to win. For tactical squads though, you're best net is to use them as support for your specialists like TH/SS terminator. They are your backup option which lends itself to a generalist loadout.

 

 

Which is probably why I specialize my Tac squads somewhat, because I am running Tactical Terminators, which are far more generalized than TH/SS. So, I specialize my generalists while you counter ballence your specialists with generalists. Did I get it right, this time? Like you, I don't like death stars much. My terminators can be divided into two squads, and contribute as much fire power as a Tactical and Devestator unit combined. I like the toughness of TH/SS, but they don't fit in as well with my army strategy.

 

If I fought more Chaos armies like yours though, I'd probably have to get some Thunder Hammers in there to defend against your CC monsters. So, I see your suggestions as being very good advice. Thank you so much for taking the time to post...

 

When I start mechanizing, I'll probably have to consider switching my Termies over, and going with your counter ballence strategy. Altough I'm then stuck with a death star unit. Maybe I can substitute with Sternguard armed with combi-plasma/combi-melta, add in a Librarian w/ Null Zone. How many plasma shots does it take to kill combat monsters/uber units? I am leaning towards plasma, despite the Gets Hot rolls.

 

Which kind of brings us back to meltas vs. flamer/plasma.

[chaplain belisarius]

i used to be all about powerfist, meltagun and multimelta but ive since realised that my tacticals need to keep the enemy at arms length and am having some success running tacticals with lascannon and plasmagun in a rhino with a h/k missile (i can use it as a transport or a bunker...depending on the tactical situation...)

[minigun762]

i used to be all about powerfist, meltagun and multimelta but ive since realised that my tacticals need to keep the enemy at arms length and am having some success running tacticals with lascannon and plasmagun in a rhino with a h/k missile (i can use it as a transport or a bunker...depending on the tactical situation...)

 

Which is a whole other issue, namely that the SM codex functions much better as a "shooty" army then it does as an "assault" army whereas Chaos is the opposite. Having access to troops with 2 base attacks always makes you feel safer.

 

Warprat: You're right on with your assessment. I can't say that my way is best, just that it works for me.

 

I suppose this topic really needs to be clarified to "Meltaguns vs Flamer/Plasma" in Codex X (or Y or Z) because I feel that choices would be different in each army.

[chaplain belisarius]

@minigun-that is it exactly! i struggle o get the best out of tacticals when i use them as anything but a shooting unit(if i use a tactical squad like a chaos marine squad or grey hunter pack...the results are unimpressive to say the least!).

 

I could play SW (their dex is pretty good plus GH are a brilliant troops unit...but i dont really like the wolves fluff, mostly because of what they did to the poor thousand sons:(

 

I have found my tacticals are performing better since i use them like so-

 

lascannon, plasmagun, sgt with bp and ccw.

in rhino with H/K missile.

 

This squad sits in the rhino and the plasma and lascannon shoot from the firepoints (this keeps my tacticals safe from being assaulted and hit by anti personnel fire). If required my tacticals (i have 2 of these squads in my 1k list) can advance in their rhinos to take and hold objectives but ideally i want to keep my tacticals out of assault.

 

Meltaguns are the weapon of choice for my captains command squad (or any squad which is likely to have to assault the enemy) and i never use flamers...ive tried them out but they arent much good (unless they are used by an assault squad before thy charge...then they are ace!)

 

Hope my rambling has been helpful...

[Warprat]

@warprat-that is it exactly! i struggle o get the best out of tacticals when i use them as anything but a shooting unit(if i use a tactical squad like a chaos marine squad or grey hunter pack...the results are unimpressive to say the least!).

 

I could play SW (their dex is pretty good plus GH are a brilliant troops unit...but i dont really like the wolves fluff, mostly because of what they did to the poor thousand sons:(

 

I have found my tacticals are performing better since i use them like so-

 

lascannon, plasmagun, sgt with bp and ccw.

in rhino with H/K missile.

 

This squad sits in the rhino and the plasma and lascannon shoot from the firepoints (this keeps my tacticals safe from being assaulted and hit by anti personnel fire). If required my tacticals (i have 2 of these squads in my 1k list) can advance in their rhinos to take and hold objectives but ideally i want to keep my tacticals out of assault.

 

Meltaguns are the weapon of choice for my captains command squad (or any squad which is likely to have to assault the enemy) and i never use flamers...ive tried them out but they arent much good (unless they are used by an assault squad before thy charge...then they are ace!)

 

Hope my rambling has been helpful...

 

 

I think you can only use our Tacticals as CC troops like Grey Hunters or Chaos, when you are facing weak shooty armies like Tau or IG. Against those types of a armies, Grey Hunters and Chaos squads would be overkill, while ours are just about perfect. But when facing CC armies, I think our best option is to combat squad. We have to shoot them up a bit, before they hit us hard.

 

I've tried the las cannon out in Tacticals, and I'm not that impressed. I want my bolters in there as well, and that means an infantry target, not vehicle. I am far more enamered with plasma cannons. But I like the rest of your combo, in fact, I think I would add a combi-plasma to the sarg. Also, after using the BP/CCW sarges for a while, I have found the 2nd rapid fire shot of a bolt rifle to many times make the difference. While an extra CC attack is shruggable.

 

I think HK missiles are great for what they can do. I take my armor killers in the form of Dreadnoughts and Terminators. Both are on a movable platform. When I start mechanizing, I will fire first with the dreads and termies, then fill in with HK's where needed. My plasma cannons will then blast the huddled former passengers into goo. Or, shoot up transports if all my regular anti-tank missed, and there is no one to transform into boot scrapings.

 

As for flamers, I really love them... almost as much as plasma cannons. I attacked a podding Grey Hunter squad with 2 combi-flamer, flamer combat squads the other day. I wiped them out in one round. 8 models under both flame templates from the first squad, and 5 models under each template from the 2nd squad. That's a lot of hits, and they are ALL hits cause there is no rolling to hit needed. Meltas can't put out that kind of total damage output against infantry.

 

But each to thier own...

[Meatman]

Dual flamers in any form is generally awesome, especially against units that have just disembarked. Getting 8 or 9 under each template is just epic.

 

Normally I buy the melta I need first, once I'm happy I have enough fast melta or general anti-tank/transport, I stock up on flamers. I rarely take plasma. While I recognize it can be useful in some situations, more often then not, it is just an over expensive way to take out your own guys.

[Nougat]

I think it depends on your army set up. As vanilla SM, melta is almost a necessity somewhere in your army. But if you have lots of it through elites or fast attack slots, then you might go for plasma or flamers in your tactical squads. I personally like to specialize a unit's role, so I have both flamer and plasma-armed tacticals in my army. I take an approach learned from playing against Necrons a lot... If my dedicated anti-tank units can't take out a given vehicle, I'll just ignore it and concentrate on the opponent's infantry. The chances of using a 200-point tactical squad for a single melta shot being worth it seem low to me.

[chaplain belisarius]

I use my tacticals to take out armour, mcs and other nasty things. This is why lascannon, plasma gun and rhino with h/k is how i equip my tacticals-i use the rhino as a bunker in the first turn and hammer anything i dont like whilst my pair of vindicators hammer the enemy some more. If the enemy get close my captain and command squad (supported by their heavy bolter armed razorback) will counter charge.

 

Tactical squads are tactical...you have to choose your targets and concentrate fire in order to be successful-tacticals are not superunits of doom...they need to be used with thought and they have to be supported.

[Gothical]

I like the Combi-Flamer, Plasma Gun & Multi-Melta set up, all jumping out of a Rhino.

 

It's designed for take-and-hold warfare, so it has the Flamer-template for the "taking" (denies cover) and the Plasma Gun for the "holding" (good power and high rate of fire). The Multi-Melta is just an insurance piece against things like Dreadnoughts, Vindicators etc. that may try to counter-charge the unit - or for taking out armour once you're in a fairly dominating battlefield position. I like the unit as it is primarily anti-infantry (high number of shots, flamer template) but it can take on things like Monstrous Creatures, Terminators and so on without a huge amount of hassle.

 

One thing I waver on is including a Power Fist - it makes the squad shockingly expensive at 250 points - that's a platoon or 6 TH/SS Terminators! However it would mean the squad can take on anything in the game - which I find ideal in a short-ranged army such as the Salamanders. I don't know - I know the common theory is to always take one on a forwards squad, but I've got a Command Squad with some Thunder Hammers in it that tries to support the Tactical Squads as it is.

 

As to the topic at hand, I find that all the Special Weapons have their place in the army list - even in Tactical Squads. It all depends on playstyle and what is lacking in the army - as well as what role you want the unit to play. I like my Tactical Marines to be generalist, as they are played quite offensively and I can see them taking casualties - were I to go with one Melta unit and one Flamer unit, I may find myself stuck unable to deal with the target at hand. With flexible wargear, any unit can "have a go" (usually not too badly) if the specialists are taken out by the opponent.

 

Flamers are quite handy though - they are even lethal against Marines because of the number of models that you can hit with the template, doubly so if you have a Combi-Flamer in the unit too (and a Librarian with Avenger...but that's just being frivolous!). Meltaguns, I find, belong in specialist units like Command Squads and Sternguard, where the sheer number give reliability over the single-shot nature and you don't have the Bolter-marines kicking around which become wasted points if you fire at a vehicle - though of course Flamers can be used in these self-same squads, depending on what battlefield role you have in mind for the unit (4 Flamer templates hitting ANY squad will cause a lot of pain - be it Terminators or Hordes).

[Grey Mage]

This is a two part question.

1) Is there a point that using more Meltaguns becomes, well pointless?

2) In an all-comers list, how highly do you rank the Flamer and Plasmagun as alternatives to the Meltagun?

 

I have my own beliefs on these points but I also know that good generals need to reevaluate their tactics and weapons from time to time and the meta-game is always changing with each new release.

1) When you have about twice as many meltaguns as your opponent has tanks youve achieved 'overkill' status. Frankly, a 1-1 ratio, particularly if theyre maneuverable, is more than enough.

 

Now of course some armies thisll be different- fire dragons for example dont nearly count as 10 Meltaguns in this equation, despite their numbers... more like 3-4.

 

2) Plasmaguns and Pistols are my first choice for Tactical Squads and Grey Hunters- because they are powerful, effective, and flexable. They can damage most anything in the game, and are quite effective against all the main targets for either of these units. Grey Hunters in particular benefit from having up to 5 plasma shots per pack, wich really stacks on the casualties they can inflict. Also, it has great synergy with the bolter- same weapon type, same ranges.f

 

I find that a 2:1 or 3:2 ratio is what I like of Plasma to Melta, as it allows me to deal with the plethora of light armor, heavy infantry, and monstrous creatures in my area without sacrificing anything in terms of horde killing power. The Meltagun squads are more than enough to take on the heavy armors like Battlewagons and Landraiders, wich are somewhat less common *if just for their large points costs*. If Im in a particularly large battle, or playing cityfight, Ill take slightly fewer Flamer squads than I will Meltasquads, and have a 1:1 ratio of Plasma to melta do to the increase in cover saves.

 

An increase in cover saves works both for and against a plasma toting squad- on one hand the higher number of shots means more are likely to get through that 4++, but on the other hand the AP 1 from the melta becomes a more important edge simply because fewer shots are likely to get through. The lower range on a meltagun is likewise less important, simply because everyones LOS is less than it would otherwise be.

 

Planetstrike likewise sees an increase in my Melta compliment, as the free AV 14 bastions are going to need popping, and fewer people bring light armor to these kinds of games as theyre often destroyed via firestorm.

[minigun762]

1) When you have about twice as many meltaguns as your opponent has tanks youve achieved 'overkill' status. Frankly, a 1-1 ratio, particularly if theyre maneuverable, is more than enough.

 

Well thats damn near impossible when fighting Chimera spamming IG. :P

Seriously though, I think its a fair yardstick to use, especially if you consider that Melta is really only needed on AV12+ units since you can Krak the rest the armor.

 

I also like how the Plamsa is a perfect compliment to the Bolter, it makes using the squad fairly easy.