Rage USR

[shinigami]

...cause people in Italy actually don't, and we're all getting a big headache about that.

I'll try to explain the issue (but my English sucks, so please be patient :mellow ): .

 

The rage universal rule forces any "affected" unit to move towards the nearest enemy on the battlefield. Ok.

Now, suppose the nearest enemy is a unit of 10 gaunts (just an example) and i have a DC dreddy 3' far from said unit.

I'll have to move 2' straight in the direction of the gaunts, and this is (more or less) clear. And now comes the problem.

Having done that, there's still (in theory!) 4' of movement i haven't yet exploited. Can i use those 4' to move "around" the gaunt unit, keeping the 1' minimum distance? By doing that (if possible, i mean!), i could (say) get closed enough to another enemy unit, and charge it on the assault phase.

OR... could I even use those 4' to move in any direction? After all, I have already moved toward the nearest enemy as requested by the rule.

OR STILL... Am I forced to move 2' toward the gaunts and then sit as a moron, cause any other movement would never be "toward the nearest enemy" anymore?

 

My personal answer to this is actually "BOOOH!" (an expression italian people use when they really have no idea about the answer :D ) and that's the reason why I finally ended up asking for help on my favourite forum (this one :) )

 

Another debate had risen some weeks ago, about a similar matter: if the "rage affected" unit is the death company (made of many models, and not a single one, as for the dread), and i have to move it toward the nearest enemy, how do i actually move the dc models?

I'll first move the dc model NEAREST to the enemy unit toward said unit. Having done that, can i move the other dc models AS I WANT, respecting the unit cohesion, or am i forced to move EACH single DC model as closed to the enemy as possible, instead?

I would go with the first solution, and to say the truth this is a problem i had never thought about. But there seem to be people eager to nerf our uncontrollable dc even more, out there -.-

 

Well.... that' all. It has been a long post (at least for my standard!) and i really hope it to be somehow understandable to everybody.

Thanks for your patience!

 

PS on a side note.. do you think it would be appropriate to raise the same issue on the general section of this forum as well?

[daboarder]

.......thats a good question,I'd say that YES provided you stayed the minimum/max 1 away from the guants you could circle the unit.

 

As for the coherency I would say that you are correct in moving the first in a straigh line and then the others may move in anyway so long as they remain in coherency as then the UNIT has moved directly towards the closest not the model.

[Sanguinarian]

A. Why wouldn't you want your Dread to rip those gaunts to pieces? RAW is to move as fast as possible to the nearest enemy. RAI - same and then rip em up!

 

Get them into contact as fast as possible! When they disembark my Land Raider, I try to keep them spread out 2" to minimize being pie-plated.

[Jakobus]

I see what you are saying, so if Squad A was a 5 man unit and 6" behind them was Squad B -a kitted out assault squad (ie 'zerkers) can your DC squad move to the closest unit Squad A then continue moving around them, while staying at 1" distance.

In doing so being able to pick Squad B as your assault target.

 

I think it reads RAW, since Rage only applied to Move and consolidate actions it's OK but maybe not RAI

[shinigami]

Thanks Jakobus, you really helped making the issue clear and understandable.. that's exactly what i meant to ask (and in so saying, I mean to answer to Sanguinarian as well: imagine I wanted my dread to engage something more threatening than those 10 gaunts, but i am not closed enough to do so... )

 

The point is, if i'm able to move "around" an enemy unit, i could get closed enough to charge another one i'm more interested in taking out, or i could even end up multi-charging both of them.... it could end up being a HUGE difference game-wise, and that's the reason why people of the italian gaming community are discussing about it so much.

[LordofDeath11]

It's actually a good question. I have been on this forum for 2 weeks now and I still can't figure out what RAW and RAI stand for...sorry for being ignorant but can someone clue me in.

 

PS You're English is actually quite good.

[Jakobus]

RAW: Rules as Written

RAI: Rules as Intended

 

The difference here being Rage stats moving towards the nearest enemy but nothing about attacking (shooting or assaulting) the closest enemy.

[njm3]

"move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy" is pretty clear. You can't move "towards" something by moving past it or maintaining the same distance. You also can't make _another_ unit the closest by moving trickishly away from the (previously) closest unit). If less than your full movement allowance leaves you 1" away from the closest squad... any other movement wouldn't be "towards" that unit. Orbiting it isn't moving towards it, as keeping the same distance isn't towards. :P

 

There are some tricky situations where the movement towards the enemy may not be a straight line (around impassible terrain or some such), but normally it is pretty clear.

 

that deals with the movement phase.

 

For charging? You aren't forced to charge and you can always shoot at a different unit from the closest one, so feel free to maintain that 1" with the enemy unit you moved towards and charge other things. Or that other thing and the closer unit.

[LordofDeath11]

Hey, can you jump pack over an enemy unit you actually end up closer to it? i.e. I am 3" aways from said enemy unit, I jump pack over it and land on the other side, but my closest model(or the majority of my unit) is now only 1" away from it.

 

If this scenario is in fact legal, then I am techinically allowed to assault an enemy uni that was previously out of reach/LoS, provided I am now within 6" of it.

[JamesI]

LOD11, that is a good question. Sadly, no one is sure.

[Zealadin]

Comes down to what you think 'move as fast as possible' means. Some would argue that means the most direct route with the least movement necessary.

You also can't shoot a different unit then charge the closest.... if thats what your trying to say njm3

[Red Fury]

The rage usr states that the unit must move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy. How do you define "fast" in this scenario? I would define 'fast as possible' as the 'fewest inches possible'. Meaning that using more inches of movement then necessary is slower and therefor not the 'fastest'. So no, you would move towards the enemy and not be able to use your 'unused' movement to wrap around.

 

Same would apply to the jump pack question. If you can reach the enemy unit in 7 inches, then you would be moving them slower by jumping 10 inches over top of the enemy.

 

As for the squad question. If you move the closest model up to the enemy unit using the fewest inches possible, then you have followed the rules for rage on that unit and the rest of the members would be able to move normally, keeping in coherency. This may allow you to wrap around or possibly even launch a multi-assault.

 

-Fury

[njm3]

Comes down to what you think 'move as fast as possible' means. Some would argue that means the most direct route with the least movement necessary.

You also can't shoot a different unit then charge the closest.... if thats what your trying to say njm3

 

Rage doesn't force you to charge the closest unit. You can shoot at another unit and charge that unit, even if it isn't the closest, or shoot at one unit, charge it and the closest unit.

 

As for moving over/around/behind/through... none of those would be considered "towards".

 

"as fast as possible" is open to some interpretation, since there might be difficult terrain that could easily be moved around rather than through (for non JP guys), but as was said earlier, shortest distance is probably what is required.

 

The way difficult terrain tests work, you could take the test and see if that would be the fastest possible way (end up the closest possible to the enemy unit) and then move by avoiding the terrain if going around ends up with the figs closer (see P14) if your difficult terrain test dice end up snake eyes or something similar.

 

edit: See Stinkenheim below and later posts, as the above thoughts on moving around the terrain may be wrongo.

[stinkenheim]

except that if you roll for difficult terrain you are bound by the result even if it isn't far enough to get you into the scenery.

[Grimtooth]

No.

 

As soon as you try to move around he gaunts, you are no longer moving towards the closest enemy unit.

[Massawyrm]

There is nothing preventing you from wrapping around. You must end your movement as close to the target unit as possible. Wrapping around for tactical advantage is perfectly acceptable as NOT allowing said additional movement could prohibit:

 

A) getting all of your models into base to base contact

B) setting up potential charges of additional nearby units

C) getting out of the way of friendly fire or additional charges

D) getting a coversave

 

The rules are explicit: "In the Movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy." That's all it says about movement. Once this is satisfied, any movement that does not contradict this is acceptable.

[njm3]

except that if you roll for difficult terrain you are bound by the result even if it isn't far enough to get you into the scenery.

 

Right, which is exactly what the rule says: "If he chooses that they will do so [attempt to enter difficult terrain], the unit must take a difficult terrain test as described above. Even if the distance rolled is too short for any of the models to reach the difficult terrain, the unit is still slowed down..." P14

 

But also:

 

"If you take the difficult terrain test, you are never compelled to move the models, as you may not have rolled high enough to make it worth moving at all. However, if you roll the dice, the unit is still considered to have moved for the purposes of firing, as detailed later in the Shooting rules." P14

 

and also:

 

"It is perfectly fine to measure a unit’s move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all." P11

 

The issue is if the declaration of intent to enter the difficult terrain is binding and overrides the "perfectly fine to... change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else". The rules cover that if you roll the dice, you can choose not to move (but still count as moving), but (at least to me) aren't entirely clear if the declaration can be changed and what the effect of the dice roll on the new direction would be.

 

A difficult terrain test occurs before the models are physically moved (unlike dangerous terrain tests which occur when the models are being moved: "has entered..." P14). If you declare that your troops are trying to enter difficult terrain, you roll. Not enough to reach the terrain after having measured? You are slowed down per the roll if you wish to go towards the terrain. Can you then say "Well, I don't want to move?" sure. Can you say "Well, I don't want to move towards that terrain" and then move in a different direction? RAW aren't explicit for that situation, and the B&C concensus seems to be that you can move in a different direction up to the amount rolled for the difficult terrain test. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=204689 but there are other threads with "that idea is full of crud" last words. Dunno.. more of an endless rules debate than on topic here, and would I try it? No. Would I let my opponent? Sure, rather than argue it.

 

Since we are talking about rage and "fastest possible", it may be that a strip of difficult terrain in the path that can easily be manovered around must still have to be walked through (assuming non jumpers). If you roll crappy on the difficult terrain dice... well, that is still "as fast as [now] possible". You still have to try, since if you rolled awesome on the difficult test you'd be closer than if you tried to go around. At least that's how I'd play it.

 

There are probably more than a few Chaos Raging Dreadnought threads about Rage, since they've had models with rage for longer than we have. Might want to check those out.

 

--

 

Oh and Massawyrm... it isn't " You must end your movement as close to the target unit as possible.", it is you must move -towards- the enemy unit as fast as possible. You can't say "Well, I'm 1" away and now I'm going to move around in an orbit" as that simply isn't -towards- the enemy unit. Over, through, under, around, orbiting, sideways, curly shuffle, none of those are -towards-. If your point is that "any movement that does not contradict this is acceptable", the rule is "must always"... and "always" is not a sometimes thing :)

[Jakobus]

I'm seeing the issue as one slightly different to the Choas Dread, and if the DC was a single model I would think this is cut and dry, but since the DC could number 30 guys it's a slightly different matter. Just ask someone that's played Orks.

Would you expect all 30 DC to move towards the single closest model? Or if the say 10th DC has enough move distance which following coherency happens to wrap around the closest unit, they are moving towards the closest unit as fast as they can and I would say they are getting closer the the closest unit than if they where behind the first guy.

I would be fine if a Rage'd unit moved towards one of mine and they started wrapping around as long as it was it was obviously the closest model in the unit.

Then if for some reason I had another unit within 6" of a model that had wrapped around I would curse myself for a fool move on my behalf but it would be good.

 

I don't know about the jumping over the unit since that doesn't sound like it's the fastest route to the unit, in fact I think it's a valid anti DC tactic to force them through difficult or dangerous terrain

[Massawyrm]

Oh and Massawyrm... it isn't " You must end your movement as close to the target unit as possible.", it is you must move -towards- the enemy unit as fast as possible. You can't say "Well, I'm 1" away and now I'm going to move around in an orbit" as that simply isn't -towards- the enemy unit. Over, through, under, around, orbiting, sideways, curly shuffle, none of those are -towards-. If your point is that "any movement that does not contradict this is acceptable", the rule is "must always"... and "always" is not a sometimes thing

 

Ah, but the rule does not say "must only move". That's the key. It is both a RAI and RAW interpretation. There is NOTHING in the rule that requires you to stop. You are adding that connotation yourself. If you move away from from your target at any time, you are no longer satisfying the rule - but movement that does not move you away from the target after you have satisfied the towards condition does not contradict this rule and thus must be allowed.

[njm3]

Ah, but the rule does not say "must only move". That's the key. It is both a RAI and RAW interpretation. There is NOTHING in the rule that requires you to stop. You are adding that connotation yourself. If you move away from from your target at any time, you are no longer satisfying the rule - but movement that does not move you away from the target after you have satisfied the towards condition does not contradict this rule and thus must be allowed.

 

No, it doesn't say "only", it says "always". Not sure how you can argue that "always" only modifies how fast and not the direction, or that as long as you move to within 1" of the closest visible enemy, other types of movement are permitted.

 

"In the Movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy."

[Jux2p0ze]

What a fun, innovative, and yet dirty interpretation of the rule. I believe the movement issue in Rage would be very clear if they intend for the shortest displacement toward the enemy similar to a charge. Yet I have to agree that there's nothing in the rulebook/s saying you have to stop once reaching 1" from the "raged" model. I can see a lot of shenanigans and fisticuffs if say your opponent screens a countercharge unit and you use the most outlying DC model to skirt the screen and charge said unit. I've never had that come up, but I'll have to add that into my repetoire.

[Massawyrm]

Not sure how you can argue that "always" only modifies how fast and not the direction, or that as long as you move to within 1" of the closest visible enemy, other types of movement are permitted.

 

That would be because I am *not* arguing that. My argument is that as long as you satisfy the requirements of the rule - that you move towards the nearest enemy as fast as possible - you are not breaking the rule by using any additional movement to further surround or overrun said enemy. Once you reach 1" - as long as no model moves AWAY, they can continue to move as allowed by standard rules.

 

For an additional complication to the argument, note that the rule states CLOSEST ENEMY and not CLOSEST ENEMY MODEL. A unit sweeping around to the flank of an enemy unit is still moving TOWARDS the enemy, just not the closest model.

 

Your reading of the rule actually creates more problems than you believe it solves. Let me ask you this: If you must STOP once you've satisfied the rule's conditions, WHO stops? The unit? Or each individual model? Must each raging model converge only on the single closest enemy model, or does the whole unit stop once the foremost model comes into contact with the closest enemy model? Or can they, as per my reading of the rule, each use their movement to get into 1" of an enemy model in the unit closest to them?

[njm3]

Not sure how you can argue that "always" only modifies how fast and not the direction, or that as long as you move to within 1" of the closest visible enemy, other types of movement are permitted.

... as long as no model moves AWAY, they can continue to move as allowed by standard rules.

 

...A unit sweeping around to the flank of an enemy unit is still moving TOWARDS the enemy, just not the closest model.

 

Uh... maybe there is a translation issue here, but I simply can't see how moving around something is towards it or how the always aspect only matters for part of the movement phase.

 

Let me try some examples, and we can see where we differ. All of this movement is during the movement phase, so shooting/running/assaulting isn't at issue.

 

Situation 1:

X <--8"--> 0

Single DC model on foot (no JP) vs. single enemy model (a tank, an IC, a dread, whatever). No terrain is on the table. Models are 8" apart.

 

The DC has to move 6" in a straight line towards the enemy model, ending up 2" away.

 

X <--2"--> 0

 

 

Situation 2:

Same two models, now 3" apart, still no terrain.

 

X <--3"--> 0

 

I'd say that the DC has to move 2" directly straight line towards the enemy model and then stop at 1" away. You are saying that the additional 4" of movement can be used to go around (while maintaining 1" buffer) and end up on the other side (or any side) of the enemy model 1" away (depending on how big the enemy model is.

 

X <--1"--> 0

vs.

[insert blank space] 0 <--1"--> X (the DC is now on the opposite side of 0 from the start)

 

Is that a clear summary? If it is, gonna have to agree to disagree and move on to other topics :woot:

 

edit: to fix numbers and add additional examples.

 

 

I don't think there is a consensus for other situations (and I'm just bringing them up, I don't want to argue about them because it appears that there is a giant grey void in this area).

 

Same two models, 4" apart, narrow strip of difficult terrain between them but can be gotten around if you don't travel in a straight line.

X <--4"--> 0

 

The DC, to move "as fast as possible" if that was a straight line would have to take a difficult terrain test. If he rolled double ones, he would end up 3" away from the enemy model (and may not get to the terrain or through it). If he went around the terrain, he could end up 1" away from the enemy model. Again, this is probably a non-consensus area. Can you "trick" raging enemies into entering difficult or more importantly dangerous terrain? I'd probably say maybe, and ask the opponent before the game if possible.

 

Now adding in jump packs... must ragers use jump packs? What about if the enemy model is in difficult terrain but less than 6" away? Can the Jumpers walk in? What about if the models are more than 6" away?

 

And I think you are also discussing multiple enemy models in a unit. If a DC is moving towards -any- enemy model in that unit, even if they are moving past another enemy in that unit, you'd say that is allowed? Rage doesn't discuss what order the DC models are moved, so if I moved the farthest back first, by your reasoning I could end up surrounding or possibly on the other side of a multi-model enemy unit?

[Massawyrm]

Uh... maybe there is a translation issue here, but I simply can't see how moving around something is towards it or how the always aspect only matters for part of the movement phase.

 

The problem here is one of Aristotelian Logic. You are focusing on the word TOWARDS when your problem is your use of the word ALWAYS - confusing it with the word ONLY. Lets remove game mechanics for a moment.

 

Consider the example: When you go to the grocery store, you must always buy bananas. Can you buy peaches? Your argument is "No, you must always buy bananas." My argument is "As long as you buy bananas, you may also buy peaches." You have confused the word Always with Only. They are very different words when it comes to logic puzzles like this one.

 

Back to RAGE. Since the rule does not require you to stop, nor does it discuss forfeiting movement, there is nothing stopping you from making lateral movement once you have satisfied the "as fast as they can" portion of the rule, as long as that movement is not AWAY from the enemy in question.

[njm3]

"In the Movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy."

 

I simply don't see how you can say that units must always move [as fast as possible] [towards the closest visible enemy]" can be interpreted to allow movement that isn't as fast as possible or interpreted to allow movement that isn't towards the closest visible enemy.

 

"must always" applies to both 'as fast as possible' and 'towards the closest visible enemy'.

 

"In the Movement phase" also is clear that it applies to the entire phase (not just the beginning) so every type of movement done by that raging unit during the entire phase "must always" be both be as fast as possible and "must always" be towards the closest visible enemy.

 

"In the Grocery store, units subject to B&C must always buy bananas." Sure. Great, go ahead and buy other things. Try this analogy tho:

 

"In the Movement phase, units subject to rage must always move in a straight line". Can you move in a straight line and then move in a curve?

 

"There is nothing stopping you from making lateral movement once you have satisfied the "as fast as they can" portion of the rule".

 

The "must" and "always" are. Must always move towards. Lateral is not towards. When must you move towards? Always. When can you not move towards? Never (unless some other rule such as 1" distance stops you). The "always" is for -the entire phase-, so how is that different form "only" for the entire phase?

 

edit2:

 

Thought about it, thought about it s'more. You're viewing it as a conditional that once satisfied allows normal movement. It isn't a conditional, it is the only type of movement that is permitted.

 

Otherwise you'd end up with this:

 

Raging landspeeder (fast/skimmer) starts 1.1" away from an enemy model. You say "I move .1" towards the enemy model. I have now satisfied the requirements of rage. I am now moving 23.9" in any direction I want, however I want." Sure, yes, your interpretation of the rules would allow this. Would any opponent?