Help with playing

[Atticus_Ross]

Alright. I hope this is the right place to post this.

 

I'm just trying to get a little help.

 

The other day, I was at the local gaming shop. I played a game and got beat. I usually almost NEVER win. I swear, take my wins and multiply them by 5 to get my losses. I've been playing for a year and a half and I have amassed about 4k of marines. What I have is unimportant because the real problem is. I can't win. No matter how hard I try, it seems that I can't win. I think the only wins I have were pure luck or that I was playing a REAL noob.

 

I guess what i'm trying to figure out is. How do I win? I have looked into some videos of tactics online and such but for some reason, they never translate!

 

In depth. What do I do when building a list? How do I make it effective to win against my opponent?

How do I play my army?

I don't really know, I guess I just need advice!

[norngahl]

First of all you should post a couple of army lists. If you field the wrong models with the wrong equippment then its almost impossible to win.

 

Tactics are developed for a special army lists. So post your army list, models you like and you would like to keep in an armylist. If you have 4k of marines than we will easily find a solution.

 

Here are some units that rock:

- Vulkan: Pushes your army, but your army has to consist of as many meltas/flamers as possible

- Librarian: In Power Armor best with Nullzone and Avenger, in Terminator Armor with Vortex of Doom and Nullzone

- Sternguard: In Drop Pod with Combiweapons (best are Combimeltas)

- Dreadnoughts: Best with 2xtwin linked Autocannons (Personally I prefer 1x twin linked autocannons and a plasmacannon for a litte bit more versatility)

- Terminators: with Thunderhammers and Stormshields in a Land Raider

- Land Speeder: with either Multimelta/Heavy Flamer for close ranged attack armies or typhoon missile launchers and heavy bolters for longe range support in gunline armies

- Thunderfire Cannons: Lousy 100 points, bolters your defences, puts out a lot of damage, techmarine supports units that hang back (for counter attacks or he repairs mech units)

 

Personally I feel mech lists with lowest amount of bodies work best at 5th edition. I`m one of those absolute players- balanced lists don´t work. Either go with bodies or armor, and either go close or stay away.

[Hellios]

Also with your wins to you seem to win against a certain person or certain armies? Because that might also shed some light on your problem... and have you made the proper prayers to the dice gods?

 

One thing that is worth doing if you are friends with someone is seeing if they are willing to swop armies (just for the battle) this way you get to learn what that army can do (so when you play against it you should have a better chance of beating it) and also you can see how your friend plays your army... Maybe you will find he/she uses the list in a different manner to you but gains better results... Tactics on the internet are all very good but they are all in isolation and you have to mess around with them and combine them and find a play style you like ;)

[spartan249]

Step 1 to victory: Get to know your codex. Study all the different units you have available, get to know the pros and cons of each unit compared to similar units. Translate this knowledge into application: What can each unit do to the enemy?

 

Step 2: Get to know your enemy. You don't have to memorize every facet of your opponent, you just need to know general strategies your opponents will use. What units will they field on a regular basis? What strategy is your opponent's army designed to implement? How do their units compare to yours?

 

Step 3: Counter the enemy's strategy with your own. The easiest way to do this is to start a logical chain down their strategy. For instance, say you're fighting Tyranids. While the updated army has the ability to shoot with some success, most of the codex is geared towards excellent close combat. The main goal of the tyranid army is to get their forces into Close Quarters Battle with your forces and, through superior CC ability, defeat you. How do they accomplish this? With a lack of transports (Mycetic spores are rather useful for getting units into CQB, but it suffers from the same problem that SM Pods suffer), they will generally attempt to run their way across the board into your forces. The biggest threat to this tactic is getting shot up by enemy forces. In order to mitigate this weakness, they will either include units that circumvent running around on the board (Genestealers and their ilk) or they will include shooting units of their own to engage and silence enemy guns. Usage of target saturation and "tank" units to absorb fire are obvious tactics as well.

Your first step is to figure out what units in your codex can give you anti-infantry firepower, single-target firepower, and mobility.

Second step will be to either see/scout/figure out what units the tyranid forces will use to enact their strategy.

Third step is to work answers to each threat in your list. Genestealers? Heavy Flamers/Heavy Bolters will mow them down pretty quickly. Zoanthropes? S8 weaponry (TH/SSs, Missiles, whatever) will make quick work of them by instakilling them with every failed save. Carnifexes? Missile Launchers. Hive Tyrants? Lascannons, Multi-meltas, Plasma weapons, and anything else with AP2. All of these threats will also require you to have good mobility to avoid/position.

 

Do this process when contemplating 40k and you'll start getting much better results.

[Atticus_Ross]

Alright. I took the list making into consideration. I will definately plan out some though. As far as the units that were suggested, I have none of those. I do have some dreads but no extra arms so they are played as is. However, I have Sternguard but only two combi weapons to use. On top of that, I have definately wanted a Thunderfire cannon for such a long time.

 

I thought about getting 6 tac squads and 6 rhinos and keeping everything semi-mobile or "fast". I actually think I can post everything I own and let it all hash out for some strategies.

[spartan249]

Ok, before you buy any more models, do some soul searching first. How exactly do you want to win on the tabletop? Once you figure out your strategy, then do an in-depth study of your codex and look for units that will fulfill the requirements for your strategy to succeed. Once you think you have a list figured out, post it and look for feedback. DO NOT BUY MODELS AT THIS POINT. Once you have a list you think will work, proxy it a few times with whatever you can find. If you find that you like the playstyle, then start buying the appropriate models. If you don't like how it's playing out, then go back to your think-tank, try to figure out what went wrong, then do what you think needs to change to fix those problems. Post again, get feedback, fine-tune, then proxy again.

 

If you had none of the units norngahl mentioned, then you probably bought a bunch of wierd models that don't mesh very well. Those units up there are most of the best of what C:SMs offers. This is probably due to listening to bad advice and buying models on a whim. Always play-test lists BEFORE you buy models. Saves you time, money, frustration, and space. I have about 4.5k points of marines, and I can't see myself having to buy any more models for my marines anytime soon. Always plan, consult, and consider alternatives before making purchases.

[Giga]

@ Atticus_Ross

 

It'd be nice if you could give us a list of models you own, and what weapons/wargear they're equipped with.

 

Seems to me you're one of those players who got drawn into the hobby and given the terrible advice to just buy whatever units you felt were cool/fun. While this might seem awesome while you're assembling painting them, once you actually put a mishmash army like that on the table and start getting your ass handed to you by just about everyone, you realize that you've just spent tons of time and money on something that is decidedly not fun. I'm quite positive this results in many new players getting discouraged and losing interest in the hobby.

 

Anyway, here are a couple good loadouts for some of the basic units you want to have:

 

Offensive Tactical squads - run them in groups of 10, with meltagun, combimelta, powerfist, and a free heavy weapon of your choice (I prefer the missile launcher). This tactical squad is well rounded overall, and works as a forward-acting element, supporting the real hitters of your list. You can also turn them into dedicated anti-infantry by giving them a flamer+combiflamer combo instead of melta+combimelta. Either option is good.

 

Rhinos - you should have 2-3 rhinos (or even more, depending on the sort of army you want to run). 40k 5th edition is all about being mechanized, so having plenty of rhinos is a must. You can't go wrong if you buy those.

 

Land Raider - you want at least one Land Raider. It's great for a variety of roles, main of which is transporting terminators and killy HQs. I myself prefer the godhammer (the lascannon LR), but many people swear by the crusader. If you know how to magnetize things, you can buy the godhammer kit and the terminus ultra upgrade kit, convert yourself a TL-heavy bolter, and then you can switch weapon armaments whenever you want and basically have all 3 LRs in one package. :)

 

Land Speeders with multimelta and heavy flamer - get 2-3 of these. They're great, they can kill vehicles and infantry alike, deep strike if needed, block units, provide cover saves, and they can fit into pretty much any list.

 

Assault Terminators - with thunder hammers & storm shields. Even if you're a really poor player, putting these guys into a LR with extra armor will give you a shot at doing some serious damage to the enemy.

 

Also, everything spartan249 said is great advice. You could do a whole lot of proxying easily and test stuff out. Your Assault on Black Reach terminators could be used to proxy th/ss terminators (I used to do that), your AoBR dreadnought could be used to proxy any dreadnought type (I still do that!), your predators or vindicators or whirlwinds could be used to proxy rhinos, etc.

 

Also, DON'T buy 6 tac squads in rhinos. Tac squads are support units. They don't do enough damage to do the job on their own. The damage-dealing units of the vanilla codex are in elites, fast attack, and heavy support sections.

[greatcrusade08]

When i got back into the hobby a few years back i didnt win a game for over 6 months.. i asked a similar question on here and got some decent advice.. which i will pass on.

 

Try a half company list, thats

3 tac squads in rhinos

assault squad with HQ

devestator squad

 

you could probably afford another unit or two on top, but this force is pretty good (not overly competative), what it does do is allow you to see how your units work, and work together. but at the same time it allows you to build a solid core of troops that will probably be used again and again.

 

My first game with a half company resulted in a win for me, and it just got better and better, i now use a full scout army and have a very good win/loss record

[Atticus_Ross]

~HQ~

Captain Darnath Lysander

Chapter Master Pedro Kantor

Chaplain with Power Weapon (The Rod Of Office he normally carries.), Storm Bolter, and Terminator Armor.

Captain (Assault On Black Reach) I usually buy him Artificer Armor and a Relic Blade

 

Command Squad with Apothacary, Company Champion, Standard Bearer, Veteran with Combi-plasma and power weapon and another Veteran with a bolter and power weapon. (I also started working on an honour guard squad. I only have one custom Marine for that squad. Sometimes I run him in the Command Squad until I can run an honour guard squad. He has a Spear which I pay for as a power weapon and a bolt pistol.)

 

~TROOPS~

Tactical Squad with 9 Bolters and one Sergeant with a Storm Bolter and Power Axe

Tactical Squad (Assault On Black Reach) with 9 Bolters and one Sergeant with a Powerfist and Bolt Pistol

Scout Squad with 9 Sniper Rifles and Sergeant Telion

Scout Squad with 3 shotguns and 1 with Bolt Pistol and Combat Knife. (I have another with a Bolt Pistol and Combat Knife but I don't use any scouts except snipers.)

 

~TRANSPORTS~

(I am trading off my drop pods for a lot of other stuff which i'll update with later.)

FOR NOW , 2 Drop pods

2 Rhinos

 

~ELITES~

Dreadnought (Assault on Black Reach) with Multi-melta and Power Fist

Ironclad Dreadnought with two Hunter-Killer missiles, chainfist, and hurricane bolter.

Venerable Dreadnought (The old brick of metal ones) with Assault cannon and Power Fist

11 Terminators. One with Power Sword, Storm bolter. One Assault Cannon, Chainfist and One Heavy Flamer, Power Fist. 4 Others have chainfists while the rest are standard Power Fist, Storm Bolter build.

6 Assault Terminators, 5 with claws and 1 with Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer.

Sternguard Veteran Squad with 8 Bolters, 1 Combi-Plasma, and Sergeant with Power Mace and Bolt Pistol.

Sternguard Veteran Squad with 3 Bolters, 1 Combi-Melta, and Sergeant with Powerfist and Bolter.

 

~FAST ATTACK~

I have 12 guys in jump packs. I usually run these at Veteran Vanguard Squads. 1 has Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, 1 have Plasma Pistol and Power Axe. Then 5 Have Bolt Pistols, Chainswords. Then the other 5 have Chainswords and Plasma Pistols.

 

~HEAVY~

Vindicator (Home made, so no dozer)

 

I sperated these models for the sake of their paintjob and fluff. I have two devistator SGTs (one of which is the Assault On Black Reach Tac Sergeant) and then a scout heavy bolter, then a scout missile launcher. Then a Flamer, a Melta-gun, and plasma rifle. Then 2 missile launchers, 2 plasma cannons, 2 heavy bolters, and two las cannons.

 

That's the entire WYSIWYG lot of my marines. :)

[Koremu]

Tactical Squad with 9 Bolters and one Sergeant with a Storm Bolter and Power Axe

Tactical Squad (Assault On Black Reach) with 9 Bolters and one Sergeant with a Powerfist and Bolt Pistol

You should, at a minimum, have the free Flamer and a free Heavy Weapon in these qsuads.

[Atticus_Ross]

I always run them with the free special and free heavy at least. I usually move them as a full squad though.

[Badaboom]

Forget about the Vanguard Vets or use them on foot, inside a dedicated transport. With jumpacks and at full strength (10 men) I don´t want to think how many useful things you could for the same amount of points. Try also to get some Land Speeders, they are great, versatile, and you have a strong lack of Fast Attack and Heavy Support units.

[Warprat]

When i got back into the hobby a few years back i didnt win a game for over 6 months.. i asked a similar question on here and got some decent advice.. which i will pass on.

 

Try a half company list, thats

3 tac squads in rhinos

assault squad with HQ

devestator squad

 

you could probably afford another unit or two on top, but this force is pretty good (not overly competative), what it does do is allow you to see how your units work, and work together. but at the same time it allows you to build a solid core of troops that will probably be used again and again.

 

My first game with a half company resulted in a win for me, and it just got better and better, i now use a full scout army and have a very good win/loss record

 

 

 

I think greatcrusade has the right of it... choose some fairly basic units.

 

You need to know when to run, when to charge, when to stand still, etc. Learn what each unit is capable of. Then start trying to make them work together. Start with the standard basic gear, then slowly start proxying different gear, giving new combinations a try. Note which combinations seem to fit your style of play. Don't worry about winning, just look at each game as a great oppourtunity to test out different ideas. If you used a unit well, give yourself a good pat on the back. If you used it poorly, try to think what you could change to do better next time. Ask your opponent which unit you used the best, from his perspective, and which one you used the worst. Discuss what your strategy was, and what his was. Try not to let your emotions get in the way, try to think of your play as an experiment.

 

When you approach the table, try to think how your opponent will use it, and how you could use it. If you go first, is it better to deney him what he needs, or better to boost your own army? Try to develop a battle strategy. Some people like to react to thier enemy, some people play agressively. Match whatever style you have developed to the enemy. Most battles are won on deployment. So try to get good at deployment. Then, stick to whatever plan you made for that battle. If you did well, repeat. If you didn't, try something new.

 

Try making small changes, instead of huge sweeping ones. Slowly zero in on what works for you. Read up on tactics in the various internet forums, and generate new ideas. Read various battle reports, to get a feel for what others do.

 

 

Here are some general rules:

 

 

1) Don't go crazy on upgrades.

2) Try to destroy transports before they get close.

3) Use templates on grouped up units.

4) Shoot the assaulters and charge the shooters.

5) Keep the victory conditions in mind, the whole battle.

 

 

All the Best!

 

Warprat ;)

[Ace of Gods]

Switch from playing Space Marines and play Chaos instead. Thats my tip B)

[Brother_Fatiswon]

of what you listed... this is how i would shape and mold what forces you have.

Lysander + libby in TDA or Pa, joins the Tactical terminators, and eithers walks on, or Deep strikes, with the Libby in TDA of course, use bolter drill and null zone to make swiss cheese of near any thing, and those Chain fist, for can opening.

try and have your Ven dread/3rd tactical pod in the turn before the your TDA/Hq lands if they Deep strike. deploy your scouts as far foward as you can and play them as hard as you can. tactical 1, and 2, have rhinos to roll them in, run as LOS screens or if you like, you can use your home built Vindcator to screen for your 1st and 2nd tactical push forward to your Scouts and form a wedge with your 2 Tactical,and the demo cannon. Once that line is draw, you can drop/deep strike the rest of your army in support/cover. the Assault squad is out hunting for SC//MC and your bare bones vanguard are of course is your alpha strike tank/dread busting fly boys not sure the point total here, but it's in the 2k hood

 

~HQ~

 

Captain Darnath Lysander

libby w/ Null zone, and gate (use your AoBr Capt model, chop up a shoulder pad for your 'hood) and/or (chop up your Chaplin's honor of the chapter rod, and paint him like a libby in TDA)

 

~TROOPS~

x10 man Tactical Squad w/ PF+bp, Laser cannon + plasma gun + Rhino (or w/ PC)

x10 man Tactical Squad w/PF+Mg+LC + Rhino (or with PC)

x10 man tactical squad w/PW+SB+Mb+Flamer + Pod (use your sternguards and command squad to fill out this unit)

x10 man Scout Squad w/ sgt telion 3 w/ shotguns, 2 w/ Bp/Ccw x1 heavy bolter, x3 w/ sniper rifles

 

~ELITES~

Venerable Dreadnought w/ Assault cannon/Power Fist (add the Heavy flamer from the terminators) 185 (in a pod if you can)

and/or

x10 man Tactical Terminator squad w/ PW+AsC+ x5 Chain fists (idk, could work) SB on 9 of them.

 

~FAST ATTACK~

x7 man Assault squad x1 plasma pistols, and PP/SS on Sgt. (replace/convert the Thunder hammer for plasma pistol)

and/or

x5 man Vanguard squad x5 jump packs + x5 Melta bombs (your SGT here gets a free Power weapon btw)

 

~HEAVY~

x10 man devastator squad w/ 2 plasma cannons, 2 heavy bolters

and/or

Vindicator (Home made, so no dozer)

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

my .02 ( +1 to GC08 bout 1/2company advise)

[bystrom]

First of all you should post a couple of army lists. If you field the wrong models with the wrong equippment then its almost impossible to win.

 

Tactics are developed for a special army lists. So post your army list, models you like and you would like to keep in an armylist. If you have 4k of marines than we will easily find a solution.

To quote the first poster, post a typical army list (also so we know at what points you play), the models you like and would like to keep in the army list, and your general playing style (offensive, defensive, fast, gunline, reactive, aggressive etc.). That allows us to comment on the models you're using. Its also easier to give specific tactics or tips if we know what type of force you want to play.

 

As for mistakes you do during your games, we can comment on these if we know what you do during your games, which we can do if you give a summary of how your battles pan out.

 

Another way of trying to learn is going to the basics as mentioned by greatcrusade and Warprat, maybe play slightly smaller games if you usually play large ones, otherwise what Warprat's said already.

[chapter master 454]

Sounds like you need to take a small breather before anything, for one this is a hobby and not something you need to do. Winning isn't the main objective of the game, it's having fun. Speaking as someone who has played against tournament lists of varying shapes and forms I understand what it feels to be tabled turn2 or know you've lost before you even began. However I looked at what I was facing, I looked at what I needed and tested, used, re-adapted and kept at it and continued to learn from mistakes and what worked.

 

I now have a rather reasonable amount of experience at playing earth armies and I am currently enjoying my raider rush list (3 land raiders ^.^) and while it is pretty sledgehammer in it's approach, I need to consider carefully where I put my men and even my HQs and such because such things can turn the tide of critical combats. I am still learning and so far I enjoy everygame for what it is and even have laughs. Heck I ocassionally face the lists I know I can't beat just to see how I fair (so far some have turned out to be draws, against a tournament list I call that a victory).

 

I would second GC08s suggestion (however I still say scouts are useless but then again yours I guess can hit something XD). Know what the basic stuff can do first then use the fun stuff, I used to roll 3 raiders with min troops and it caused me misery because even though I had high hitting power I had near on no staying power despite the AV14.

 

You however must enjoy the hobby and gaming though, if it just brings misery then I would advice to find something else. I hate to even mention such a thing but I wish not to see people playing and not enjoying the game. You must remember that even though winning is the aim of the game, the aim of any game regardless is to have fun and meet other people. Enjoy the game first before you even think about making a game winning army, I may get faced-rolled by others at GW falkirk but I love the fluff, I love to assemble and I love painting up great models and I enjoy it before I even get my hands on dice which I run countless scenerios with like tactical marines vs. orks and such. I enjoy the game before I even start playing. It's about enjoying the game, not winning.

 

(Let me guess: I sound cheesey as heck? :))

[greatcrusade08]

however I still say scouts are useless but then again yours I guess can hit something XD

 

when there are enoguh of them then they are capbale of great things... strength in numbers and make the enemy roll lots of dice :rolleyes: