Is Mephiston too powerful?

[Crynn]

My favourite character of all time, Our sinister looking Lord of death has been living up to his name and destroying everything he lays his eyes upon. I have always loved him and really like small model count armies with 'heros' and thus Meph has always been in the vanguarg of my army.

 

The problem is Meph is averaging about 750 pts worth of kills a game in 1750 and this as well his stats have led to my opponents at the local GW thinking he is totally and utterly broken and I am finding it hard to disagree with them. Sure he has no invuln but his defence is his rediculous initiative allowing him to kill without being attacked. Mephs mobility mean he picks his targets and I never let him get shot unless I choose to, ie hiding behind fast moving vindicatirs and other rhino chassis.

 

So my question is, is Meph to powerful/broken? How have other players in your groups found him and if hes been killed what has been his achilies heal? What have your opponents done to counter him or have you had success in defeating him? Just as a note I play an all comers list.

 

Cheers: Crynn

[Morticon]

Its been said in a few places already but the crux of the matter is this; If your opponents do not adapt their lists to factor in Mephiston, they will pay for it dearly.

 

Mephiston will destroy an unsuspecting/unprepared opponents with reckless abandon, and unless that opponent then adapts and starts to include certain elements in his army, hes screwed.

 

Mephiston is stupid hard, but not unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination.

 

No unit is "broken". Mephy can be shut down in a number of ways. Personally the only army I truly see struggling against him is the Necron race.

 

That being said, ive found that the second time I face opponents with mephy, they're much better prepared.

[Zealadin]

Lots of people screen him with vehicles so he is pretty damn nasty. It stops people niggling down his wounds before he gets into CC, and makes him alot scarier.

He does however rely on psychic powers in many regards (movement, AT)

As others have stated he also lacks an Invuln and can be instant killed (if you can find something that lives through his attacks)

 

I am running him because I use a list with no vehicles and he is an extremely good method of drawing huge amounts of fire.

A LR can soak up fire, but a lucky shot destroys it. This guy screened by say JP troops still gets a cover save and will take nasty amounts of damage to take down. (Some lists can do it more successfully than others)

Perfect for diverting attention from other important stuff.

[Hfran Morkai]

Problem is people who run all comers lists (as I do, no idea who I might be facing) and Mephiston shows up offering up an awful slapping.

 

I know in theory how to deal with Mephiston and each time I've faced him he has died but the problem is I know there are other scary units in the list that need neutralizing such as those fast scouting Baals...

 

Though my Jump Pack Wolf Lord with Power Fist and Saga of the Bear did beat Mephiston to a pulp, but only because Mephiston targetted his Skyclaw pack initially.

[The Thirst]

i think mephiston is an "I Win" button

 

he took out my dante killer;

 

wolf lord on thunderwolf with frost blade and plasma pistol.(trust me this works!)

 

IN 1 ROUND OF COMBAT!

[donnyb]

What can be used to instant kill mephiston?

[thor1234]

I agree that Mehpy is not Broken, just very powerful, in one game where i used him he got shot down by a devastator squad with PC and a tactical Squads Plasma gun, (I knew i should have put in behind the trees!) but as stated, you opponent needs to factor in the idea that he will be facing Mephy, my main opponent is farley new to 40K 5th (though he used to ROCK! with his Eldar in 2nd) he can also be a sore looser at times and keeps saying that Mephy is too powerful, yet if he stopped for a few minutes and realised that if he Guided his 3 Starcannon Armed War Walkers, and Doomed Mephy, instead of shhoting the Tactical squad sitting on the objective, he might actually kill him in one turn!

 

IMO its tactical mistakes like the one above that partly make Mephy as dangerous as he is, your opponent just doesn't Know how or prepare to face the lord of death......

 

the answer to your question Donnyb:

Wraithcannons, Force Weapons, Swarmlord (anything that inflicts ID automatically regardless of Toughness)

[donnyb]

Ah thanks thor, the nids have something else that can instant kill too. If you are wounded you have to take a leadership test, if you fail you die.

 

Or I may be confused...I do play nids a lot. Trialled Meph for a while but then I went back to Sanguinar and Dante.

 

The issue I had with Meph was trying to use too many powers in one turn, or against the nids and their shadow ability, Meph's psychic powers were neutralised. I imagine the eldar could or should easily be able to handle him too.

[Zealadin]

Force weapons and anything that causes instant death.

ZOMG Wraithguard are finally useful again!

 

@ the puppy players QQ'ing really? REALLY? Your saying you have a model (not even a unit) that is tailored to kill Dante (amongst other similar IC's) and your honestly saying you think only you should be able to do this???

SERIOUSLY????? I wonder why someone swapped from Dante to Mephiston...... Tailoring ftw?

 

Honestly how do you think people feel when they face your codex with all the outdated codexes. Its up there in public perception with the IG leafblower lists.

Esp when your comparing a unit which is 25% cheaper, and is cavalry! (and can join other thunderwolf cavalry).

I mean its a well known fact that TH/SS termies can really squelch this guy.

In fact all the things that are pretty much a joke in the SW codex that should never have been put through got fixed for the BA codex.

 

Yes it is terrible there is a single unit in this codex that you actually need to use some kind of skill or intelligence to beat it is terrible. We feel your pain. Try not to QQ into the Blood Chalice's we don't want them to be tainted. Next thing it will be the Black Rage and Unstoppable Crying afflicting all the BA. On a roll of a 1+ all your units burst into tears at the first sight of anything, and can do nothing for the rest of the game.

 

Yes his Initiative is extremely high... probably because as a single model unit he would be the most useless thing since the tyranid faq otherwise.

 

Also people seem confused by the 'all-comers' list concept. When you can beat a list with Mephiston AND all the old armies then its an all-comers list. Now your just lagging behind the times, and refusing to update because you don't think its fair. Coming from a Space Wolves player its quite the irony.

[Crynn]

I do realize that If an oppnent prepares for him after a few games he should be much more able to deal with him. However, I'll or should the average competitive tournament list have the capacity to deal with him? Also all this yeah shoot him part just hasn't effected my use if him as he literally only gets shot after he's been in combat and won, never gets shot before he makes combat unless I choose him to. Eldar should be fine with him daemons as well but other than that only ss/shtermies worry him. So how does an all comers list deal with him?

[Kapitalist-Pig]

I would say that in friendlies, yea meph is just messed up.

 

I do not know about the meta game in your area but here in Colorado springs, it is las/plas Large blast templates as far as the eye can see. So if your firends are playing meta game lists in friendlies as well, then they are just being whiners. I try not to play him a lot, every once in a while I get the urge to just let him go and see what my opponents will do to try and stop him.

 

Truely, I think that with every new codex something different is supposedly brought to the table. Yes, Meph is a beast, yes he is 250pts. You pay for what you get. If I remember this correctly, a 100pt models in most SM armies (Libby's) can kill him. And thats not to mention all the other crazy stuff that goes down, like people coming up with ways in a DH and -][- way of assassinating him, or things that just remove him from the table (SW players).

 

So while Meph is a beast he costs a lot, I could put in my list two Baal's with no upgrades and have points left over, Take an enitre squad of Sang Guard and tool them up for same cost, I could throw a couple of squads in razorbacks. Everyone as a player has to look at the list they make when adding in a character that costs this much. You have to allocate the points for him, and sacrfice something else, and in those games where meph is shot down before he gets to the enemy lines thats 250pts down the drain.

[Crynn]

That is all good and well but I have never had him comeeven close to getting shot down beforehe makes the enemies lines. To the sw player with the lord on thunderwolf to you I say your Dante killer crap drop that plasma pistol for a stormshield then not only will he not die to meph in a round he may actually beat him. Change your frost blade for a thunder hammer and you will definately destroy meph. In my opinion SW are theo ly army other than eldar who should be able to comfortably deal with him. Maybe imp guard too.

[Morticon]

That is all good and well but I have never had him comeeven close to getting shot down beforehe makes the enemies lines. To the sw player with the lord on thunderwolf to you I say your Dante killer crap drop that plasma pistol for a stormshield then not only will he not die to meph in a round he may actually beat him. Change your frost blade for a thunder hammer and you will definately destroy meph. In my opinion SW are theo ly army other than eldar who should be able to comfortably deal with him. Maybe imp guard too.

 

He is likely to fail his LD check against Transfixing gaze. Which means meph is likely to hit and wound with about 5 shots.

Chances will be he will fail one storm shield save- which at S10 (sang sword) means he gets instant glibbed unless has saga of the bear. Raising his cost to the same as mephy. I dont think theres anything "definite" about that pair up.

 

 

 

You really are pathetically sad players....

 

Zealadin, flame like this again and you will get yourself a warning. Its unwarranted and unwanted.

 

Thats not how we roll in the BA forum. Get with the program.

[Morticon]

Also people seem confused by the 'all-comers' list concept. When you can beat a list with Mephiston AND all the old armies then its an all-comers list.

 

This, however, summed up exactly what I was just about to post.

People here have been saying how can an all-comers beat Mephy. If you know there are mephy players in your area, your list should be able to take that to be an "all-comers".

 

Area meta-game thinking is part of the game. When I play in my Province I have to be certain to account for daemons (The number 1 player here) or be taken out.

 

Again, adapt or die.

[GlauG]

I've been running Mephiston in about 75% of my games, and in all those games, only once has an opponent killed him (as opposed to him Perils'ing himself twice, which has happened like 3 times!), and that was Necrons, and the player in question forgot about Dante's Debuffs on his Necron Lord, so Mephy should have survived at least another round and kicked a lot more ass. That said, I have a friend who also plays BA, and I basically lent him a bunch of my stuff for him to try out, including my Stormraven, some Land Raiders, and Mephiston for a Spearhead game, while I took my collection of IG Tanks. Long story short, Meph just needs to be hit with concentrated anti-tank fire for a turn or two, and his lack of invun means he goes down pretty easy; for me he actually does a much bigger job as a fire magnet, than anything else, I use him to control enemy movement and fire. However, for all that said, he did go through about 750pts of tanks first.

[Hellios]

I can think of a number of units that cost around half the points of meph in various codices that can reliably take him out in 1 turn by themselves... now obviously... this might not be easy... and might require a bit of thought... but I'll give an examle of some units... (that may or may not be over half his points)

 

So a few things to consider have anti-psyker stuff... first it stops him from insta-gibbing everything... also it slows him down and considering most people want to kill him outside of combat... that is a good thing... the other thing iskilling his cover... is he is hiding behind units... blow the units up... and if they are fast (as they often will be so mephy can use wings)... they are likely to cost a few points.... and if it is a rhino... you should have no problems killing it...

 

Eldar: Fire dragons... Wraithguard... you will want a falcon or waveserpent...

Chaos: Plasma Chosen... sweet times... they really will want a rhino as chaos have nothing to stop mephy from casting his powers...

Orks: orks actually have a hard time shooting him to death... do flash gitz have ap2? I never ever see them... but they might work...

Dark Eldar: They have lances everywhere... and might actually have a fairly good chance in combat against him as well... that anti-psyker bomb might be worth a shot...

Tau:... its time to suit up and bring the plasma and fusion... and prey to the greater good you hit otherwise you are going to suck it... rail guns also don't hurt... well don't hurt you anyway...

Imperial Guard:... yay plasma vets... they are like chaos chosen... but who cares if they die... oh and they score... oh and guard have some many other ways at killing meph it isn't funny...

Space Marines: How about sternguard? I'm sure you can get other units as well... but sternguard should be able to do the job...

 

AND SO ON AND SO FORTH...

[GlauG]

Also 'nid warriors with Bone Swords, I've been told. ;)

[whitewolfmxc]

@ the puppy players QQ'ing really? REALLY? Your saying you have a model (not even a unit) that is tailored to kill Dante (amongst other similar IC's) and your honestly saying you think only you should be able to do this???

SERIOUSLY????? I wonder why someone swapped from Dante to Mephiston...... Tailoring ftw?

 

Honestly how do you think people feel when they face your codex with all the outdated codexes. Its up there in public perception with the IG leafblower lists.

Esp when your comparing a unit which is 25% cheaper, and is cavalry! (and can join other thunderwolf cavalry).

I mean its a well known fact that TH/SS termies can really squelch this guy.

In fact all the things that are pretty much a joke in the SW codex that should never have been put through got fixed for the BA codex.

 

Yes it is terrible there is a single unit in this codex that you actually need to use some kind of skill or intelligence to beat it is terrible. We feel your pain. Try not to QQ into the Blood Chalice's we don't want them to be tainted. Next thing it will be the Black Rage and Unstoppable Crying afflicting all the BA. On a roll of a 1+ all your units burst into tears at the first sight of anything, and can do nothing for the rest of the game.

 

Yes his Initiative is extremely high... probably because as a single model unit he would be the most useless thing since the tyranid faq otherwise.

 

Also people seem confused by the 'all-comers' list concept. When you can beat a list with Mephiston AND all the old armies then its an all-comers list. Now your just lagging behind the times, and refusing to update because you don't think its fair. Coming from a Space Wolves player its quite the irony.

 

First , whats QQing ? Second , old codexes depends on what codex some actually do quite well against newer codexes , i dont know what your taking with this but tau makes Tyranids especially the big bugs cry to death , dark eldar still makes all marines scared of em , sisters can still burn everything to ashes , my SW still have lots of trouble fighting eldar. Again i dont see your point bringing out about the old codexes since no one was comparing them to anything.

 

Yes the older books are at disadvantage , no doubt but what your saying the SW codex is in pair with the IG "leafblower" (again i call bull on this so called list as its not really a thing before the internet says so, its been there all along in various forms or armies) is totally unheard of , "razor wolf" "Puppy Calv army" ? you seriously comparing those list saying they are unbeatable ? a 5 model strong wolf cavlavry unit will totally get screwed against Mr M without storm sheilds , "why not give them then ?" cause then your talking to a 400 point unit vs your 240 point poorly written character

 

"Esp when your comparing a unit which is 25% cheaper, and is cavalry! (and can join other thunderwolf cavalry)." im assuming your talking about the wolf lord on a wolf mount, yeah like you said , ONLY 25% cheaper , but is it 25% better ? HELL NO (actaully a full decked out Wolf lord cost a lot more than Mr M , im sorry but thats a fact SW character can go up points as if they are special ) , so i dont see your point there , cavalry oh bad mofo , wait Menphiston can go 12 and fleet AND CHARGE ? you call that bad compared to Cavalry ?

 

"Next thing it will be the Black Rage and Unstoppable Crying afflicting all the BA. On a roll of a 1+ all your units burst into tears at the first sight of anything, and can do nothing for the rest of the game." are you mixing facts here ? confusing the DC and normal troops ? only DC get rage USR now.

 

"In fact all the things that are pretty much a joke in the SW codex that should never have been put through got fixed for the BA codex." Explain , cause all i see is an attempt to insult the codex and its players , or are you actually trying to say "oh the SW codex is so unique in units they dont need codex units , but WAITTTTTT BA actually has a abundance of them even though they have already plenty of unique units and rules ?"

 

 

As to answer the Ops question : no , his rules / stats are overpowered in many sense , but not the unit itself , itself in game terms is not Op at all as many have stated

[lolita23q]

NO he is not OP, having menphiston dont mean that you will win

 

he is a nice HQ but he is not overpowered and he is not undefitebel

 

and he have many downsides

the cost, no inv sv , cant join units ..

[whitewolfmxc]

NO he is not OP, having menphiston dont mean that you will win

 

he is a nice HQ but he is not overpowered and he is not undefitebel

 

and he have many downsides

the cost, no inv sv , cant join units ..

 

I think everyone agrees and understands these points , whats troubling most players out there is the fact that Mr M requires a fixed anti death star / or death star combo pattern to deal with , in which when one is going to a friendly flag game and unaware they will fight BA / Mr M is in serious trouble , hence they think his over powered , but in fact once you know the "guy" his not TOO hard to deal with but will sure put a run to its cost

 

And i still stand the ground of the character even though Not OP , the stats and rules for him is pretty regular matt ward style , "ridiculous /too powerful ? it would be a shame if it wasnt"

[Ranwulf]

Mephiston is a powerful unit, and in my opinion the BEST HQ in the Codex(That's a personal opinion, he is excelent for my game style). 5th Ed. brought I wide number of Deathstar units with it, either by being extremely cheap, either by being extremely powerful. Now, you want to kill Mephiston? SW players can get one of their Drop Pod Grey Hunters with either Plasmagun or Melta and shoot him almost to death with it, you can even use your Rune Priest to deal with him, Jaws or stop him from flying. IG player can shoot him to death with Executioner. Heck, pretty much every Codex have a way to deal with him(Heck,even shooting him to death with a Predator).

 

Now, bringing Death Star units it's a common thing in 5th Ed., so it's not like no one is prepared to fight such unit. Land Raiders, TH/SS Termies, Wolf Cava., Swarmlord(Which IS very killable, but scaringly powerful).

 

Ran

[whitewolfmxc]

Mephiston is a powerful unit, and in my opinion the BEST HQ in the Codex(That's a personal opinion, he is excelent for my game style). 5th Ed. brought I wide number of Deathstar units with it, either by being extremely cheap, either by being extremely powerful. Now, you want to kill Mephiston? SW players can get one of their Drop Pod Grey Hunters with either Plasmagun or Melta and shoot him almost to death with it, you can even use your Rune Priest to deal with him, Jaws or stop him from flying. IG player can shoot him to death with Executioner. Heck, pretty much every Codex have a way to deal with him(Heck,even shooting him to death with a Predator).

 

Now, bringing Death Star units it's a common thing in 5th Ed., so it's not like no one is prepared to fight such unit. Land Raiders, TH/SS Termies, Wolf Cava., Swarmlord(Which IS very killable, but scaringly powerful).

 

Ran

 

very true and whole hearty agree ,

 

exception only that grey hunters in pods dont do the job well , 2 shoots thats it and you get charged , the real star on doing this is wolf guards with combi plasmas / meltas

 

Also using jaws against him is stupid , so you want to try a 1/6 chance every turn ? you cant cause in 24 inches he will get to you in 1 or 2 turns max lol

 

yes everyone who plays 5th ed should have at least one unit dedicated in dealing with dealth star units in a all comers list XD

[lorider2]

Its been said in a few places already but the crux of the matter is this; If your opponents do not adapt their lists to factor in Mephiston, they will pay for it dearly.

 

I think even this is an overstatement. Meph is REALLY good, but there are LOTS of effective counters that are pretty common elements in many "competitive" armies. As mentioned above - spamming plasma, bone swords, runes of warding and fire dragons, and hoods and TH/SS being some of the most obvious examples found all taking advantage of Meph sole weakness. In a greater sense, just basic strategies like bait and counter units and mechanizing up can seriously limit Meph's effectiveness. However, I would say is if you don't gameplan for Meph, you are likely to lose.

[Corby]

However if you look at competitive tournament play , Mephiston does not feature in most properly planned lists. Because both Ba players and the majority know that Mephiston will die easily if properly dealth with.

[soshi kenpachi]

This whole thing strikes me as... strange.

 

From a new player's stand point: I've been playing for 3 months, and I've been rocking Blood Angels for 6 weeks('Nid army is on hold until it gets the models it needs to run correctly). I really, really liked Mephiston but when I was at another site trying to get some information I was told Mephiston was crap. My main opponent is a Necron player so my Psyker nids had felt the sting of his Pariahs, and I'd seen what Shadow in the Warp did to the Eldar. Then I read the entry for Psychic Hood. I thought 'Ehhh... too much Anti-Psyker in 5e'. When making a choice for HQ Units I grabbed Dante.

 

Then last weekend I played in my first tournament and I saw another BA player rocking Mephistup. After he punched through my friend's Monolith and then decided to wreak havoc on the Pariahs. My jaw dropped. His jaw dropped. A few F bombs dropped. I felt the desire to get a Mephistup and he felt a desire to find a way to kill it. We were both impressed and horrified. That being said... a pack of Tyranid Warriors could kill him(Maybe Shrike would have a better chance because they could actually CATCH him). Bonesword+Lashwhip means no armor save and init 1. Heck, a pack of toxic Gargoyles could take him just because there are so many of them and he only gets 5 attacks a turn.

 

He's Superman: Incredibly powerful and nigh invulnerable... unless you have the right stuff and then he's a kitten. That being said, Superman's always at his best when Batman's there to counterbalance him.