Is Mephiston too powerful?

[Grimtooth]

Meph is a crutch. Any tactical wisdom at all has him easily dying just like any other special character.

[Crynn]

Just to let you know once Meph has cast Sanguine sword sword he never has to cast it again just like any lib as the power never ends it's a once cast so really your dread should have gotten stomped. But yes I agree with everything else you say and thunder hammer SS lone wolves are a nightmare for him.

 

However now that I have a solid base to support my arguement that Meph isnt the be all and end all of the game and I can tell those idiots at my local GW to go stick it when they have a whinge if you could write any notes about my army list and what you think of it that would be fantastic, cause I'm just sick of hearing how rediculously hard meph is. (And my army from certain incompotent players)

 

Would really appreciate it guys.

 

you sure about that ? lol havent heard that one before

 

Yeah strangely enough it is true my friend. Unlike the other 2 BA CC psychic powers which state when you can cast them and for how long the bonuses apply, sanguine sword reads only. 'The librarian attacks are made at str 10' or something along those lines. Which is why in many games I put a lib with a jump pack into an honor guard with 2-3 LC's with sang sword and unleash rage. first assault phase that happens even if its the enemies and there is no cc on the table i cast sang sword so that when my HG and Lib charge turn two the only thing he has to cast is unleash rage to get those amazing 4 str 10 attacks with rerolls or 5 if theres a banner in there!

 

I don't think many people know how to use Mephiston correctly for instance. Unleash rage lasts a whole turn not a player turn dont recast it all the time. if you go first cast it in your phase so when the enemy charges you its 1 less psychic power you have to worry about or when the swarm lord charges you and dies on Mephs pointy hand held killing object he'll wonder why you got 3 attempts to use your force sword cause you already had unleashed rage and Sang Sword cast. Small things like this drastically increase Mephs potential, less powers means less perils and less failed casts when you need them. Also you don't want Meph to always beat everything in one round of combat, sometimes its best not to cast rage and draw it out another turn so you dont get shot!

 

This is the kind of thing my opponents are hating. I'll charge meph and an assault squad into a unit they used to bait me and then wipe it out on the charge. Fine they expected that but then I use the assault squads consolidate move and Mephs consolidate move to totally surround Meph with the assault squad if their are any dangerous CC units around like SS/SH termies so he cant be assaulted and suddenly the enemy has to consentrate all there fire on FNP assault marines just to charge Meph. I physically am struggling to loose him in games, he is better that he is given credit for when used well in my opinion, I dont think hes OP but I started this thread to get a better idea of how to kill him or how people should go about it other than saying "shoot plasma at him and he dies"! And just to end that arguement Meph only gets shot by rapid fire plasma if you choose him too. Even in my last example where he was surrounded by assault marines lets look at how hard he would be to kill with rapid fire plasma from bs 4

 

Each shot requires:

66% chance to hit

down to 44% chance to wound

4+ cover save = 22% chance to wound

23 shots to be fired to do 5 wounds.

 

So even with rapid fire plasma you would need to shoot 12 plasma guns at him to down him in a round! Even if somehow your opponent does manage to get 12 plasma guns into range ill go to ground just so you have to shoot him again next turn. Just a note with going to ground it would require 17 plsama guns in rapid fire range to kill him. Not to mention that if you fired 12 rapid fire plasma guns at him you would loose on average loose 1 or 2 plasma marines or 3 imp guard plasma vets. My point here is there are 100 threads where people use this as their solution for killing Meph, so even if you dont believe me that it doesnt really work please post other ideas for myself and my opponents to mull over.

 

By the way the responses have been great so far and generally very well thought out. I do thank you all.

 

Edited for some typing errors

[Crynn]

Well thats just impressive seeing as he can cast it 3 times per player assault phase so my hat goes off to you! An army list comment would be really appreciated to mate!

 

Yeah, lucky die rolls and my opponent didn't know he could cast it twice (he cast Rage successfully, I canceled sword, and he never tried again).

 

HQ

 

Mephiston

 

Honor Guard 2x Lightning claw and 2x Melta gun

 

Troops

10 man tac squad

Rhino with dozer blade, Sargent with PF and combi melta, melta and missile launcher

 

5 man RAS

melta gun

Razorback with twinlinked Heavy Flamers and dozer blade

 

5 man RAS with jump packs

melta and power weapon

 

Fast Attack

 

Baal pred with AC and twin Heavy Bolters and dozer blade

 

Elites

 

Librarian Dreadnaught

Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius

 

Heavy Support

 

Predator

Autocannon Twin Lascannons

 

2x Vindicator with dozer blade

 

Heres my list comments:

1) Mephs ok, doesn't really fit this list as well as others, but still works

2) Your Honor Guard seems... all over the place. LC's are good and well, but if you fail to pop the transport... thats an expensive squad going bye bye. I'd recommend going for 4x meltas, 3x meltas + TH, or no power weps at all. Make them focus on popping tanks or knocking out troops.

3) I'll be the first to tell you I HATE tac squads. Anywho, for your loadout, I'd drop the ML for a Lascannon. 1 ML in your army won't do much... at all. At least a Lascannon gives you a much better chance to pop stuff.

4) Cut the dozer blade off your razorback and change the melta to a flamer. I'd also find points for a PW. Make this unit focus only on dropping troops (honestly, if your driving your HF razorback to pop a landraider, your doing it wrong lol)

5) Your 5 man AM squad... will die quickly. It just seems so random! I'd recommend throwing these guys in a razorback and find points for a TL lascannon on it or somethin

6) The baals good, they work better in pairs tho. I recommend dropping the other predator to fit a second Baal in, same loadout

7) Libby dreads always fail for me, but if it works for you great

8) Vindis always are great, as I said before tho, drop the Pred for another Baal

 

Those are my recommendations. I understand if your using what you have ATM to play, which is all good. But your army needs more focus!

 

Thanks a heap for your advice all very good points! I have 10 points spare so the HG normally gets an extra melta. This list wasnt designed to be a super competitive list rather a strong solid allcomers list for all my tournies and gw games. It isnt for an equivilant Hard Boys style setting as if it was I wouldnt be taking things like Lib Dreads (I just did I cool coversion of one so I like to use it). I was saying that my local players have complained that this list is way to hard and broken so I was looking for you guys to give me an idea of how tough you thought it was, 0 to 5 scale. 0 being fowl and 5 being a push over. Thanks for your good advice though mate! Taken on board none the less!

[LordofDeath11]

Yeah strangely enough it is true my friend.

 

I don't many people know how to use Mephiston correctly for instance. Unleash rage lasts a whole turn not a player turn dont recast it all the time.

 

So glad I read your post dude. Never would have thought of it.

[Crynn]

Yeah strangely enough it is true my friend.

 

I don't many people know how to use Mephiston correctly for instance. Unleash rage lasts a whole turn not a player turn dont recast it all the time.

 

 

So glad I read your post dude. Never would have thought of it.

 

Glad to be of service. I really believe small things like this can make the difference in games and can seperate a good player from a great player. Not saying I'm in either of those catagories, but I haven't lost Meph to Perils yet and I play him in about 90% of my games. I do realize Eldar are a different kettle of fish and I am yet to play a really good eldar player so my tactical advice/opinions may be lacking there.

[njm3]

Ok, The Sanguine Sword psychic power being a continuing power.

 

Is there any other psychic power in any other codex that has a continuing effect but doesn't list any duration?

 

I agree that RAW there is no duration, and this wasn't covered in the recent FAQ, but dunno if most opponents would agree that you only have to use it successfully once during the game.

 

Might wanna add it to the B&C BA Faq page.

[Crynn]

Ok, The Sanguine Sword psychic power being a continuing power.

 

Is there any other psychic power in any other codex that has a continuing effect but doesn't list any duration?

 

I agree that RAW there is no duration, and this wasn't covered in the recent FAQ, but dunno if most opponents would agree that you only have to use it successfully once during the game.

 

Might wanna add it to the B&C BA Faq page.

 

Maybe but what are we supposed to do argue over weather it lasts a player turn like might of heros or a full turn like unleashed rage? It wouldnt even have a clear answer outside of RAW. I generaly play RAW just to avoid confrontation, I take the good with the bad on it as that way it's not left up to anyone persons opinion. Although I am fully aware that's not for everyone, however strictly speaking it is correct, and thus will always be my answer.

 

Just to finish answering your question mate there is no other conitinuing powers in the dex. The three CC psychic powers all have completely different durations. Odd I know, but it was written by Mr Ward so what do you expect.

Crynn

[donnyb]

The ruling for "turn" is detailed pg 9.

 

Unleash rage does not last the entire turn. If it was meant to last the entire game turn, the wording "game turn" would have been used. "turn" only ever means player turn.

[Morticon]

Shenanigans!

 

 

The first sentence in this rule tells us when this power is used.

"This power is used at the start of either players assault phase"

 

The following sentence then explains the effect.

"The Librarians close combat attacks are made at S10".

 

I feel it is poor reading comprehension to preclude the first half of the paragraph and take the sentence out of context.

The use of the definite article "The" can imply specific attacks (which are related to the use of the power in a certain time frame ie: either player's assault phase.

 

For clarifications sake, Im of the opinion that this is ambiguous in the truest sense of the word. The RAW reading seems stronger, but I believe that since it can be read/interpretted in another way, and in a situation like this its a bit poor form to hold our opponents to this.

99% of them didnt hold us to non-blast vindies.

[tahrikmili]

I'ma a BA player and I have to really admit that Mephiston is in a tier of his own, as far as power goes.

[Corby]

I'ma a BA player and I have to really admit that Mephiston is in a tier of his own, as far as power goes.

 

 

He isn't though? So far the discussion in thread has followed the route that its best to feed him an expendable unit and then shoot him to hell or shoot him off the table turn 1 , Or lock him down with a tarpit/Psychic hood.

[Corby]

Double post.

[donnyb]

Shenanigans!

indeed!

[tahrikmili]

I'ma a BA player and I have to really admit that Mephiston is in a tier of his own, as far as power goes.

 

 

He isn't though? So far the discussion in thread has followed the route that its best to feed him an expendable unit and then shoot him to hell or shoot him off the table turn 1 , Or lock him down with a tarpit/Psychic hood.

 

So far this is agreed to be the best way to do it, however this is just an obvious and ideal case, yet still not a definitive counter. Just because he's beatable doesn't change the fact that he's in a power tier of his own.

[Corby]

I'ma a BA player and I have to really admit that Mephiston is in a tier of his own, as far as power goes.

 

 

He isn't though? So far the discussion in thread has followed the route that its best to feed him an expendable unit and then shoot him to hell or shoot him off the table turn 1 , Or lock him down with a tarpit/Psychic hood.

 

So far this is agreed to be the best way to do it, however this is just an obvious and ideal case, yet still not a definitive counter. Just because he's beatable doesn't change the fact that he's in a power tier of his own.

 

I see and I'll agree to that. I was a bit hasty it reading your post it seems. Sorry :)

While not a definitive counter , It is a reliable counte.

[Oiad]

Let's look at the statistics. If anyone has ever done a rough estimate on the points-to-ability costs for Mephiston they'll know that he is underpriced, despite his flaws. So you get more than your bargains-worth with him. The fact that the majority of the time, if you use him correctly he more than make his points worth back and more. (See the 'Today Mephiston Slayed...' thread), demonstrates that he could never really be called a 'points-sink'.

 

Based on that I'd probably say Mephiston is overpowered. If I was a special character hater it would probably cause much distain if I saw Meph in use too. But then again they're the same people who take a 'fantasy game' too seriously, neglecting part of the fun. Taking a vanilla librarian is probably more economical at a low cost [game] but only a player with a serious aversion to special characters would quickly dismiss him or other BA SC in a 2000pt+ game. He's a good character who adds a unique dynamic to the BA game and that can never be bad.

 

Besides, as Brother Ramses noted, he has his weaknesses. It just takes some preparedness, tactical know-how and a bit of dice luck to bring him down, as with any character.

[Corby]

Okay so the verdict is:

 

 

In friendly games he rocks?

 

In competitive games he sucks?

[soshi kenpachi]

Corby, I think the verdict is that Mephiston is only as functional as the player using him can utilize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses. I mean... come on. He's the ultimate red herring. Let the opponent send a dozen plasma shots down range at him. Those are a dozen plasma shots not going at my stormraven, death company, or assault squads. Mephiston and 2 Furioso Librarians w/ wings are hard enough to kill and a big enough threat to justify concentrating as much firepower as one can gather in an attempt to take them down. The whole thing runs 600 points, but if takes 800 points of attention off my troops choices for a turn or two... it's worth it. A model doesn't have to personally kill enough to cover its cost so much as facilitate that amount of killing. If he goes down without killing a single model, but distracts the opponent enough to get my CC troops in to assault to faceroll their guys... yeah. His worth is totally based on how he's used.

[Captain Idaho]

Actually, I think we are forgetting that many of the people defending him are Blood Angels players who use him, so they would of course have the opinion he isn't over powered.

 

Mephiston is not unbeatable, nor going to win a game on his own, but in the hands of a competetant player is ultimately very powerful. Against some armies he could be considered too powerful, whilst some have easy ways to counter him. A Codex Space Marines player can really struggle against him.

 

The problem is the model is small enough to hide behind vehicles effectively, or at least gain a cover save easily enough. People have compared him to a Bloodthirster, stating no-one complains about a Blood Thirster, but they have failed to notice that you can't hide the Bloodthirster very easily! They are forgetting that the Bloodthirster is more expensive! They are forgetting that the main way to kill Mephiston they have proposed is mass fire, to which the Bloodthirster dies easier!

 

He is definitely too cheap for his abilities, except perhaps when facing Eldar or an opponent who can effectively shut down his powers, and then he is about right. But being too cheap for his abilities doesn't make him or the Blood Angels unplayably difficult to beat. Most Special Characters are over powered for their points cost, the ones who aren't never being chosen. If Mephiston was the correct points cost, say about 275-290pts, he would be way too expensive and no-one would use him.

 

And when we consider that killing a unit of Assault Terminators or a Landraider often requires sacrifice, then we can apply that to Mephiston without getting worked up about it. When a unit or model is so expensive, you can't expect to kill it every game without loss. Mephiston is powerful, so the trick is to hopefully get him to charge something you can afford to lose, then get another turn's shooting in, as expressed in this thread already.

 

What I'm trying to do here is put some perspective from an unbiased point of view (ok I'm a little biased seeing as I do love Blood Angels) of the reasons why people feel the way they do, but also that it isn't an unfair thing to take face him any more than it is unfair to face an Ork Nobz Mob, Calgar in a Landraider or Abbaddon the Despoiler. Each of those are unstoppable in the right circumstances, but we accept that because of their cost.

 

Remember most Blood Angels players that include Mephiston are essentially taking away another squad or Landraider out of their army. Advantage and disadvantage to both players.

[JamesI]

Most Special Characters are over powered for their points cost, the ones who aren't never being chosen. If Mephiston was the correct points cost, say about 275-290pts, he would be way too expensive and no-one would use him.

If the cost was raised to the point that no one would use him, then I would say the cost was too high.

 

Now, I don't use Mephiston (except in apoc games). I don't have enough experience either using or facing Mephiston to say if his cost is fair or if he is broken.

[Grimtooth]

Besides, as Brother Ramses noted, he has his weaknesses. It just takes some preparedness, tactical know-how and a bit of dice luck to bring him down, as with any character.

 

Let me give you an example,

 

Last Meph list I played against I ran my three GH Rhinos right at him because he was trying to come up a flank with an assault squad in a rhino as his mobile cover. I ALWAYS run my three GH squads in close support of each other. If one GH squad can kill something, three GH squad can kill it more. The BA player actually laughed at this tactic. So he charged one of the rhinos with his Str10 sword and wrecked it. My GH got out, waved to him, and with the two other GH squads still in rhinos shot him with out in the open with 6 melta gun shots. He killed a 35pt transport.

 

Like I said, a crutch for bad tactics.

 

However lets say he had not moved his rhino flatout and had been able to fire his melta from the assault squad, kill my rhino, and then assaulted with Meph to wipe them out. I still have 4 meltagun shots from the safety of the other two rhinos to waste him while I play my own version of mobile bunkers against Meph.

[yodaid764]

I have to agree with Captain Idaho.

 

Put a daemon prince behind a rhino and you can see him clearly enough. You can see him well enough from most parts of the board (pending terrain) to see him using his Slaneeshi Protrusion to violate the aft of the rhino giggling gleefully the whole time.

 

Put Mephiston behind a rhino and it is a whole different story. He could be doing the Emperor knows what back there. By the time you see him clearly, it will probably be the last thing you ever see.

 

I would, however, like to see him die by "gets hot!' from his own plasma pistol.

[Oiad]

Actually, I think we are forgetting that many of the people defending him are Blood Angels players who use him, so they would of course have the opinion he isn't over powered...

 

True, this is the Blood Angel forum after all. Though personally I play Grey Knights. This thread is interesting as such topics normally throw up alot of herohammer hate, which both attracts and narks me. Unexpectedly, so far it hasn't been so bad. It could still happen. Or possibly I'm just envious of these guys having such an option. :)

 

I don't think most people mind swapping LR's or squads for Meph because he can essentially/potentially move as fast as one and take out whole squads and vehicles quite easily.

 

I would, however, like to see him die by "gets hot!' from his own plasma pistol.

 

Lol, spot on. I think most players using him actually forget he has that pistol. Or feel that he's too bads*s to need it. Wasn't there a Mephiston conversion thread with someone proclaiming so recently?

 

---

 

EDIT- Grammar

[Spam Monkey]

If its an "all comers" list it needs to be able to handle ALL COMERS.

So don't complain if your all commers list is geered to the normal meta of your region. So you play against alot of mech armies.

Don't complain that someones all 0 mech army gives your trouble beacuse you only have Melta Guns.

List design is about balance and trade offs.

any "all comers" list should have the ability to deal with 1 hard, ok rock hard, modle.

[Burningblood]

Shenanigans!

indeed!

Seconded!

Thats rules lawyering at its worst! If you tried to pull that on me I'd walk from the table.