Is Mephiston too powerful?

[haroon]

The skulltaker is my favorite thing to use Vs meph as its guarnteed to kill him.

 

What does it do mate ? i dont play demons

 

 

you would get a 2+ sv vs meph and any roll to wound of 4+ would auto kill him.

[whitewolfmxc]

The skulltaker is my favorite thing to use Vs meph as its guarnteed to kill him.

 

What does it do mate ? i dont play demons

 

 

you would get a 2+ sv vs meph and any roll to wound of 4+ would auto kill him.

 

wow lol thats nice , probably the best counter unit i heard so far

[LordofDeath11]

The skulltaker is my favorite thing to use Vs meph as its guarnteed to kill him.

 

What does it do mate ? i dont play demons

 

 

you would get a 2+ sv vs meph and any roll to wound of 4+ would auto kill him.

 

Owch. ;)

[HERO]

The skulltaker is my favorite thing to use Vs meph as its guarnteed to kill him.

 

What does it do mate ? i dont play demons

 

He has a 2+ invul vs. Force Weapons and Instant Kills on a 4+ <_<

 

Wow.. I got time-warp ninja'd. Swear.. I saw myself as the only one posting.

 

Anyways, Hi guys!!

 

So it does seem that my analysis on Mephiston from before the codex was released came true. Mephiston is really powerful.. but only against some armies that have no answers. Necrons, fresh out of luck. Tau, a little bit weak to psykers, but they have enough rapid fire plasma to kill him.

 

Like I've said many a time.. S10 threatens everything in the game ;)

[Ranwulf]

Mephiston can be killed. However that is not the issue. The issue is that unless you are an utter buffoon he will without fail get you more than his points cost back in kills every game.

 

Wolf Lord with Runic Armour, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Saga of the Bear..... 215 Points and can seriously lay the smack down on Mephiston with a 3++ Save, Eternal Warrior and 5 S8 attacks in the first round of combat (usually), chuck in the fact that if Meph doesn't manage to take him out in one round Meph loses that pretty I7 he's packing for the next combat.

 

Usually Mephiston have some advantage against IC because of his ability of enthralling them, so if he makes it, he will re roll to hit and to wound. Not forgetting that it's unusual to any character hit and wound every attack, so first you have 50% of chance of any of those attacks hitting, them you have to wound and 1/6 you don't, it still a quite small chance that you don't make it.

 

P.S.: I have fought against many SW players using Wolf Lords like that, and yes, it works well to kill Mephiston when his alone AND the enemy is very lucky, but I NEVER let Mephiston fight for himself without backup, that be Baal Predator or a Vindicator or a Squad at his side.

 

P.S. 2: One thing is the strategy on paper, the other is making it work. I cannot tell you the number of people who designed a special ANTI BA list through the lasts months only to have it smashed by some good strategy, luck and practice with the list(the latter in my opinion being VERY important). So altough most of the "How to kill Mephiston strategies" are pretty solid, I must say that does not mean you WILL actually make them work. For instance, I would not send Mephy against the Wolf Lord, instead I would shoot him with Baals and Vindicators while Mephy kills other available stuff.

 

 

Ran

[Brovius]

considering that to get in to hth mefisto needs 1-2 turns he has 2 chances to cast the sword .

 

You can't attempt the same psychic power more than once in a single game turn. If you could, 3 Tyranid Tervigons would give an entire army FNP every turn.

Meph only has one shot each game turn to use the Sanguine Sword, and if it gets blocked by Psy-Hoods, Aegis, Wolf of the Wolf Wolf, etc, he just has to deal with it.

 

My apologies if this is not what you meant to say, the wording of this part of your post is very confusing.

[Blitzkreig]

Mephiston can be killed. However that is not the issue. The issue is that unless you are an utter buffoon he will without fail get you more than his points cost back in kills every game.

 

Wolf Lord with Runic Armour, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Saga of the Bear..... 215 Points and can seriously lay the smack down on Mephiston with a 3++ Save, Eternal Warrior and 5 S8 attacks in the first round of combat (usually), chuck in the fact that if Meph doesn't manage to take him out in one round Meph loses that pretty I7 he's packing for the next combat.

 

Yeah that should do it with a high chance of winning the fight , but don't assume that everyone plays SW and everyone will bring this layout lol

 

And the fact the Mr M has the edge on movement , you dont want to get charged ? sure id like to see how your wolf lord on Foot is going to chase him ? Land raider you say ? another 250 points for you sir and that still might not do the job catching , and this doesn't include any bodyguards either unless you want to throw in more points (its like saying yeah sure an entire SW army will certainly win against Mr M 1 vs 100 models) lol unless now you want to say that the wolf lord alone has more survivability than Mr M on general terms then ok .........lol

 

apples and oranges here my friend lol

 

ps: Am just bloody tired seeing people always bringing up SW entries when they try to justify that something is NOT OP cause something else in another codex is Op (no im not pointing at the poster im quoting) , people get over it , ever since the SW codex came out for a month , there's near no more complain about the codex cause its a very balanced out codex (except like Jaws for players that play nids XD) in the end if you see it through and not just pick an plug entries here and there , and complaining about other codex's doesn't make another book not have its designing problems nor justifies it (But im not aiming this statment at this particular issue this thread is bringing up as i mentioned in my earlier posts already) , end of Rant.

 

It isn't apples and oranges, the OP gave asked a question about what can kill Mephiston and I answered it. Every army has something that can go toe-to-toe with the big guy its just a matter of finding out what (hell Arjac would probably do better than the Wolf Lord but I havn't checked it). Besides, what makes you think I am relying on the charge :no: its not like I am dumb enough to send in the Lord with no support.

 

As to your ps, I will freely admit that ALOT of loadouts SW can use are OP, but he, they are in the codex, try em out... for a while I was using a Thunderlord who dismantled entire armies alon but stopped because he was no fun.

 

Mephiston can be killed. However that is not the issue. The issue is that unless you are an utter buffoon he will without fail get you more than his points cost back in kills every game.

 

Wolf Lord with Runic Armour, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Saga of the Bear..... 215 Points and can seriously lay the smack down on Mephiston with a 3++ Save, Eternal Warrior and 5 S8 attacks in the first round of combat (usually), chuck in the fact that if Meph doesn't manage to take him out in one round Meph loses that pretty I7 he's packing for the next combat.

 

Usually Mephiston have some advantage against IC because of his ability of enthralling them, so if he makes it, he will re roll to hit and to wound. Not forgetting that it's unusual to any character hit and wound every attack, so first you have 50% of chance of any of those attacks hitting, them you have to wound and 1/6 you don't, it still a quite small chance that you don't make it.

 

P.S.: I have fought against many SW players using Wolf Lords like that, and yes, it works well to kill Mephiston when his alone AND the enemy is very lucky, but I NEVER let Mephiston fight for himself without backup, that be Baal Predator or a Vindicator or a Squad at his side.

 

P.S. 2: One thing is the strategy on paper, the other is making it work. I cannot tell you the number of people who designed a special ANTI BA list through the lasts months only to have it smashed by some good strategy, luck and practice with the list(the latter in my opinion being VERY important). So altough most of the "How to kill Mephiston strategies" are pretty solid, I must say that does not mean you WILL actually make them work. For instance, I would not send Mephy against the Wolf Lord, instead I would shoot him with Baals and Vindicators while Mephy kills other available stuff.

 

 

Ran

 

Against 90% of lists I have faced, I have won simply due to my playstyle more than the units I take... on paper that wolf lord is the best loadout I have seen for handling Mephiston yes, but it does that to most MCs and guys who are around MC stats (like Mephiston) but routinely gets over run by swarms...

 

I have never designed an Anti-opponent list. It cheapens the game, it makes me feel like I am winning because of the units I took, not my own tactical skill. Sure some of the things I take make games exceedingly easy with a little luck (actually managed to lock down every psychic power an Eldar player cast with Njal's Runic Weapon :wub:).

 

Besides, that Wolf Lord wouldn't be going after Mephiston....... he would be hunting other juicy targets with his Wolf Guard while Mephiston gets harassed by a few Plasma shots every turn. Either you lose Mephiston to the Plasma, defeat my Wolf Lord, pull out a win (god forbid) or eventually Mephiston goes up against that Wolf Lord...

[lounahtic]

considering that to get in to hth mefisto needs 1-2 turns he has 2 chances to cast the sword .

 

You can't attempt the same psychic power more than once in a single game turn. If you could, 3 Tyranid Tervigons would give an entire army FNP every turn.

Meph only has one shot each game turn to use the Sanguine Sword, and if it gets blocked by Psy-Hoods, Aegis, Wolf of the Wolf Wolf, etc, he just has to deal with it.

 

My apologies if this is not what you meant to say, the wording of this part of your post is very confusing.

 

 

wait what? you cant attempt the same psychic power more than once a turn? where does it says that? i understand why you cant use the same power twice, but if you fail to use it what's stopping you from trying to use it again?

[Morticon]

considering that to get in to hth mefisto needs 1-2 turns he has 2 chances to cast the sword .

 

You can't attempt the same psychic power more than once in a single game turn. If you could, 3 Tyranid Tervigons would give an entire army FNP every turn.

Meph only has one shot each game turn to use the Sanguine Sword, and if it gets blocked by Psy-Hoods, Aegis, Wolf of the Wolf Wolf, etc, he just has to deal with it.

 

My apologies if this is not what you meant to say, the wording of this part of your post is very confusing.

 

 

Thats not true. And its been discussed here and has been in agreement that you can do it.

Mephy can cast 3 powers.

It does not specify what those powers need to be. If he fails with one of them, theres nothing stopping him doing it again.

 

EDIT: And as for the Tervs- why would they be able to cast two powers a turn ?

[donnyb]

Come on now, we seem to be going over the same things again and again.

 

Time to sticky this.

 

Meph can use three powers per player turn, he can't use the same power twice as per normal pysker rules. They get one power normally per turn and can be upgraded to use two powers. Not the same power twice.

 

These rules are covered page 9, and 50.

[Morticon]

Come on now, we seem to be going over the same things again and again.

 

Time to sticky this.

 

Meph can use three powers per player turn, he can't use the same power twice as per normal pysker rules. They get one power normally per turn and can be upgraded to use two powers. Not the same power twice.

 

These rules are covered page 9, and 50.

 

You may wanna check those rules again. There is nothing preventing you from using the same power twice.

[donnyb]

Yes there is, the wording psykers can use one psychic power per turn, if upgraded they can use a second psychic power. This does not allow them to use the same power again, merely allows the use of a second power. Following this line of thought...

 

page 50, direct quote.

 

"...but still can not use the same power twice in one turn".

 

Eldrad can do it, I'm unaware of anyone else that can though.

 

There is nothing that says you CAN do it.

[Morticon]

You're misrepresenting your quote.

 

You quoted the rules pertaining to psychic shooting attacks.

 

As to the "nothign saying you can"

 

 

Pg 47 BA dex:

 

"He (Mephiston) can use three Psychic powers each turn."

 

Pg50. under Psykers has nothing which prevents you from using one of those 3 on the same power.

 

So we have been given permission via the BA dex and Mephy's entry.

[donnyb]

I'm sorry but you are wrong.

 

The allowance is for a second power per turn.

 

meph can use three separate powers per turn. No-where does it state you can use the same power twice.

 

Under the shooting section, still is used, they still can not use the same power twice. The only time we are told how many powers can be used is in the opening paragraph, the still refers directly to this as there can be instances where some models can shoot two powers a turn if they can normally shoot two weapons. They STILL can not use the same power twice.

 

Eldrad and the 1000 sun character are the only two psykers that are allowed to use the same power. They are given this allowance in their rules specifically.

 

It isn't hard to do a google search and find many more instances of this question being brought up, the answer is you can not use the same power twice.

[Corby]

If Mephiston failed to get Sanguine sword off and failed to wound typhus to force weapon him then Typhus could force weapon him.

a yeah and technicly speaking a 3 A RAS can kill tyfus too. sang has higher I . more attack , tyfus can be ID , strikes slower. considering that to get in to hth mefisto needs 1-2 turns he has 2 chances to cast the sword . tyfus cant do nothing about it[chaos has no anti psyker powers] and even if the mefiston doesnt get sword somehow he still can ID him with normal force weapon attacks . even without the force weapon working there is a good chance that tyfus dies from normal attacks alone.

saying that tyfus kills mefiston is like saying a single melta gun is good enough anti tank for anyarmy.

 

 

ah and by the way tyfus is LR costly too.

 

More than likely Typhus had a bodyguard of terminators which for some reason the Ba player decided to kill first.

yeah and termis and a LR transport too. 800 points in a single unit that start to slog after 2 melta deep strike near. no one is talking here if mefisto can be killed with twice as many points , most units/models can [if not then we get 4th ed falcon circus] one on one mefiston will not kill tyfus .and if you get BA termis + mefo vs tyfus and his termis the chaos termis die without even striking.

 

But you misread what I posted. I wasn't saying it was an effective solution to killing Mephiston, I was merely speculating how Typhus could have killed Mephiston. Two very different things.

[SamaNagol]

You can attempt to recast a failed psychic power. You cannot cast a successful power twice unless given express permission.

[Grimtooth]

You can attempt to recast a failed psychic power. You cannot cast a successful power twice unless given express permission.

 

This.

 

You can't cast the same power twice and say get, Str20 for casting Unleashed Rage x2. But if you fail to cast it the first time, you can indeed cast it again.

[yodaid764]

This was indeed discussed within the last month IIRC. You cannot use more than 1 shooting attack per turn, but nothing in the psychic rules prevents you from using a power more than once per turn unless it specifically says in the power entry or it is used in the shooting phase.

And nothing lets you get STR 20. IIRC, the entry says it increases the users strength to 10, not by +10.

[Morticon]

I'm sorry but you are wrong.

 

The allowance is for a second power per turn.

 

meph can use three separate powers per turn. No-where does it state you can use the same power twice.

 

Under the shooting section, still is used, they still can not use the same power twice. The only time we are told how many powers can be used is in the opening paragraph, the still refers directly to this as there can be instances where some models can shoot two powers a turn if they can normally shoot two weapons. They STILL can not use the same power twice.

 

 

I dont mind being wrong - but i need to be shown where.

The rule for Meph says three psychic powers.

Not three "separate" psychic powers as you misquoted.

 

Under the shooting section "still" is in reference to rules under psychic shooting attacks.

 

The word "still" must reference a previous stated rule for it to mean what you say it means.

 

Sadly, there is no previous rule- therefore that "still" completely inconsequential for what you are arguing.

 

 

The rules for psykers read:

 

"Pskyers can use one psychic power per player turn. To use a psychic power...."

 

Where is the rule that the still references?

 

There is none.

 

I have shown you where we are given permission:

 

"Mephiston may use three powers"

 

So...

 

1. Mephiston tries to cast "wings".

2. He is blocked.

3. Mephiston may now use two psychic powers.

4. Is wings a psychic power? Yes.

5. Do the rules prevent us from using this? No. (its not a psychic shooting attack).

6. Then we try again as he can still use two powers.

 

 

You need to show where it says we cant - and the "still" is not good enough for reasons stated above.

[LordofDeath11]

I think that about sums up the debate, but I am still not 100% on wether Sanguine Sword only needs to be cast once for it to last the entire game or continually. Or if does need to be cast and re-cast, does i last the entire turn or just the player turn?

[JamesI]

I think that about sums up the debate, but I am still not 100% on wether Sanguine Sword only needs to be cast once for it to last the entire game or continually. Or if does need to be cast and re-cast, does i last the entire turn or just the player turn?

I would say only player turn.

[Crynn]

Except for the "you cant recast powers" debate this thread is really good guys. Mort as always is on the money and i retract one of my statements but stick by the other.

 

For psychers. No you cant cast the same power twice, but you may recast if failed! You wouldn't cast wings twice if you passed it the first time so it's also irrelivant for most buff psychic powers.

 

As for unleash rage, while the wording does say turn I agree by other examples it should be played as player turn however Sang sword clearly, Let may say that again CLEARLY reads you only have to cast it once. Just because it lets you cast it in an opponents assault phase is completely irrelivant. Lets say I come up against eldar and meph gets charged by a wraithlord. I cast Sang sword then cause I'll need it and I didn't cast it before incase I risked taking a wound off Meph, that is just one example. I won't be letting a bunch of people who don't work for GW interperate the rules differently to how GW wrote them because they say it's fair when the rule is hardly even ambiguous. If you play it differenty how is it done? Lasts a player turn, a full turn? It doesn't even have an obvious answer there. As for making it relevant to our old vindicator shell, that's different because there is a precedent for a vindicator and its weapon in such numerous circumastances more specifically than precedent, the exact same weapon.

 

 

On that note If anyone reading the start of the thread might have noticed, I was looking for ideas other than 'rapid fire plasma' to kill Meph because unless your playing an idiot it doesnt work. There was even someone who commented on taking him out first turn. Really? Be realistic, I don't know who your versing but BA players don't put Meph out the front of their army with no cover during deployment. Baiting him to then fire plasma sure, someone pointed out that when using vehicles for cover you are effectively paying for a unit to follow Meph which adds to his cost, good point and wolf lords and skull taker are all good ideas as well if you can catch Meph, again baiting. But quit the plasma option!!!!! Like i showed before with simple Math in cover which he will always have it will take you 12 rapid firing plasama guns to kill him at BS4, plain and simple you dont have that in your army and if you do I'd love to see you play orks.

 

One of the best examples I've read is destroying the vehicle he is hiding behind, which is a perfect idea for an inteligent player and to this I would also add, try using a melta based weapon or ap 1 weapon to do that with as it increases the chance of you turning a vehicle into a wreck which he will still hide behind and just annihilating it leaving him completely out of cover. (insert plsama idea here) The chance increse goes from 50% to 66% for those who care.

 

Anyway Many thanks again.

 

Crynn

[SamaNagol]

Killing Mephiston is no different to killing a C'Tan.... it's really not worth the effort and resources.

[Crynn]

Killing a C'tan is worth it if you have Mephiston. Dead with no wounds taken on Meph. Presuming average dice rolls of course. So I'll take that as you don't think Meph is broken?

 

Can anyone tell me how to add a pole to this thread so that people can vote on what they think so I can get a rough Idea?

[Firedrake28]

Killing Mephiston is no different to killing a C'Tan.... it's really not worth the effort and resources.

 

I'd have to disagree with the last part there. It absolutely is worth killing Mephiston, because unlike a C'tan, Meph is quite capable of getting into combat with units that the opposing player would really prefer he kept away from. C'tan move 6" per turn and for the most part have minimal ranged combat abilities. Meph can move like jump infantry, is Fleet and is small enough that his not having an Invulnerable save isn't a problem against shooting attacks. C'tan are easily avoided. Meph is not.