Ullanor

[Skirax]

In every book I've read detailing the Ullanor event, nothing goes further than:

 

Emperor says he's leaving.

Thousands of Astartes cry. They aren't sad, they cry.

Horus is named Warmaster.

 

Now, I am hating how little they describe it, they never give anything more and two or three paragraphs over to it, and I think it could go so much deeper. Especially the Astartes part, where they cry; nothing has ever mad an Astartes feel so sad, ever, so surely they could say more than, 'The Asartes cried to know that they were losing their father.'

 

I'm not saying they HAVE to, but I think, now, with the passing of a Thousand Sons, they've lost their chance really to explore it deeper, considering how the next few books move away from it.

 

Anyway, rant over. I'm throwing it over to you guys, like a rack of dead meat thrown into a Lion Cage for you to tear it apart with your fangs of conspiracy and rumours. Enjoy.

[EPK]

What if, in that final epiphany when Horus realizes he is wrong, as his father is about to smite him, his fleeting memories focus back on Ullanor - his defining moment, named warmaster - and what once was - and even what could have been. Could Horus have brought all Astartes together? Together with such a bond as they had for their father that they would shed tears? No, he had divided them in bloodshed and doomed the galaxy to thousands of years of grim darkness.

 

My point is, there is still books between now and the end. Ullanor could be examined at any point in more depth - even the final few pages of the whole series.

[Tutteman]

Perhaps they have avoided it because no matter how they try it, it won't be as good to a reader as what that reader can dream up. Imagine it, thousands of the greatest warriors crying, the sky blotted out by fly bys, columns that span continents...It's like the way the Emperor is just the Emperor, not a name. And why descriptions of him are deliberately vauge. This is why film adaptions of books so often get stick, cos some many go with an idea of how it should be and get disappointed. well, thats what I think anyway :yes: (course I have only just got back from Romania and had little sleep...excuse any rambling.)

[Rain]

Yeah I say leave it vague. As fun as some of the HH books have been, I must say I preferred the old legendary and mysterious portrayal of the Heresy and feel that the really in depth look that the books have given us has cheapened that somewhat. Generally speaking nothing is ever as exciting or epic as our own imaginations can make it. Also, the astartes crying thing was probably a metaphor, I'm not sure if they can cry. And if they can, their tears are probably toxic and melt holes in ferrocrete.

[Legatus]

I too preferred it when the Horus Heresy was the stuff of legend and secret rumours which happened an eternity ago. I have not read any of the Horus Heresy books yet. They may be gripping stories in and of themselves, but there is no way they can be an adequate account of the Imperium's history. Because there can be none, as it is one of the points that there isn't. It's a legend. As soon as you write it all out in a novel style narrative it is not a legend anymore.

 

I am tempted to get "First Heretic", though, mainly to see how the greatest of the Primarchs is being described.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Yeah I say leave it vague. As fun as some of the HH books have been, I must say I preferred the old legendary and mysterious portrayal of the Heresy and feel that the really in depth look that the books have given us has cheapened that somewhat. Generally speaking nothing is ever as exciting or epic as our own imaginations can make it. Also, the astartes crying thing was probably a metaphor, I'm not sure if they can cry. And if they can, their tears are probably toxic and melt holes in ferrocrete.

 

I find it interesting that people want it left in mist and mystique.

 

Hollywood executives have a new movie. It is awesome. They unleash trailers in the form of pamphlets. We are all hooked. We ache for the movie to come. It never comes.

 

You like that?

 

"Grandad was perhaps the most awesome fisherman in the history of the universe." Lil' Jimmy is enthralled. "Tell me more Gran," he cries. "Well because I won't bother telling you the full amazingness of it all (parallel to not writing a great story) I'll just never tell you about it, so just fantasise about it Jimmy and you'll never be disappointed"

 

Such a rich re-telling wasted because Gran didn't put in the effort.

All BL needs to do is leave no-holds-barred when writing them and we would not be disappointed. I was not disappointed by LoTR nor the movies.

All that needs doing is for BL to bring the Legend to life.

 

Disappointed by Star Wars prequols? Me too (though 3 I liked). The reason they cheapened the Legend was because George Lucas insisted that what he wrote for his child/grandchild was good enough to be made into a movie. So 1 was horrid-ish. It needn't have been that way. George could have kept Phantom Menace version 1.0 for his boy and then went full-bore to make a version on par and above that of the Legend 3.

 

That is all BL needs to do.

 

The HH series needs to be their best works ever. Then we would all love them and feel it was the only logical choice for them to write them.

Instead the rush them and write stuff that is okay or even good when it needs to be *angel appearing* HALLELUJAH!

 

They can do it. They just need to put the effort in.

 

I M O :cuss

[A D-B]

I too preferred it when the Horus Heresy was the stuff of legend and secret rumours which happened an eternity ago. I have not read any of the Horus Heresy books yet. They may be gripping stories in and of themselves, but there is no way they can be an adequate account of the Imperium's history. Because there can be none, as it is one of the points that there isn't. It's a legend. As soon as you write it all out in a novel style narrative it is not a legend anymore.

 

This is a subject pretty dear to my heart. In a lot of cases, I think the primarchs should be used sparingly. I'm fine with the Horus Heresy novel series being from the point of view of their closest Astartes, trying to figure out how the primarchs perceive the world. I'm fine with momentary flashes of a primarch's train of thought, or the way they emote about something. I love the delicious conceit of "spying" on two primarchs having a conversation, or witnessing a private moment in a primarch's life.

 

But ultimately, the legend should be preserved. I don't want to know every detail of their lives. I want the rare scenes that will eventually become the fragmentary records of the setting.

 

I think Horus Rising and Legion did this perfectly. We got glimpses of something grand, something not entirely knowable, and then were shut out from seeing it all. I loved that. That was the atmosphere I wanted for The First Heretic, too. While the Fulgrim-style detailed fall, dealing with all the primarch's emotions and actions, certainly has its deserved horde of admirers, I felt something as insanely grand as the first Legion ever falling to Chaos needed a respectful distance where the primarch was concerned. Word Bearers worried about what others in their Legion are saying to the primarch, and how they might be manipulating him. The fears that rise from being away from Lorgar's side for a long time, and wondering what has changed in that absence. The brief glimpses into a primarch's heart, before he closes himself off again, to do what must be done. That's the kinda jazz that interests me. I don't want to see decades of conversations about Chaos and religion between Erebus, Kor Phaeron and Lorgar. That makes it banal and ordinary. I want to see the crucible moments, the fulcrum moments when everything was on a knife edge.

 

Ullanor is a tricky situation like that, because of its grandeur. In some instances - like the Lost Legions - nothing anyone could possibly write will ever match 25 years of speculation, because so many people will have wanted something else or seen it a different way. So I can see why they remain untouched. Something like Ullanor suffers a little from that, too. It's so grand that human description will struggle to do it justice. The Emperor and Horus fighting side by side? How would that work? Would the Emperor use a bolter? Would he reave battlefields clear with psychic force? Maybe, but describing that - even seeing it in real life - isn't the equal of knowing such a concept took place. It may not make for satisfying prose, no matter who was doing it.

 

Sometimes, it's the aftermath of something that holds all the pathos and importance. What matters about Ullanor is the gathering of the primarchs afterwards; the tectonic realignment purely to have a parade; the way they all knew this was the Emperor's last war with the Astartes. The fact the Emperor killed some orks isn't really what matters, and I daresay it's not as fascinating as the aftermath. I don't really want to see the Emperor fight. Seeing Dr. Manhattan popping Viet Cong one by one was stupid. Seeing them kneel before him, though - hearing the voiceover about how they demanded to surrender to him personally and that the war was over in a week - that was amazing.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I am tempted to get "First Heretic", though, mainly to see how the greatest of the Primarchs is being described.

 

Yeah, Lorgar was pretty cool :P

 

Oh, you meant Guilliman, silly me. Then you must mean to see how the latest of the Primarchs is being described. :eek

[Hyperion]

It's exactly this care and consideration that makes your books so bloody awesome ADB. I am so looking forward to The First Heretic.

 

On the topic of space marines crying - this has cropped up in a few places now and I was wondering whether Astartes have more primitive emotions than normal humans? We know that they lose some of their humanity when they become Astartes, and given their young age when they are altered (followed by indoctrination and decades of warfare) do they remain childlike in certain aspects, like their emotional ties to their Primarch?

 

Regarding the Lost Legions - we've had a couple of hints so far (eg: The Lightning Tower) and I hope this means their chronology has been at least partly worked out by GW/BL. Speaking personally, I don't want to see a full description for the same reasons as ADB, but I do like the snippets. So perhaps in a future book we'll see the Ullanor gathering from another legion's viewpoint and they could mention in passing a very brief description of the Lost Legions from a distance (say, their colour scheme and heraldry). At the very least, this would make the interwebs explode!

 

I'd also like more snippets about the legions pre-Primarch. Knowing that the Death Guard were the Dusk Raiders and being told their colour scheme was great (particularly from a pre-heresy modelling point of view) and I'd love to know all the others.

[Lucifer216]

Without wanting to sound like a WoW fan-boy, the intro sequence to Wrath of the Lich King used a similar approach, in which you saw the Lich King gathering his army, superimposed with a voiceover in which Arthas (the paladin corrupted into becoming the Lich King) is addressed by his Father, charging him to always do what is right. It was strangely effective. Having flashbacks to Ullanor at the climax of the Horus Heresy, perhaps at the bit when the influence of the Chaos Gods receeds from Horus and he realises what he has done, could be equally effective, although the different medium could prove a challenge.

[The emperors chosen]

I too preferred it when the Horus Heresy was the stuff of legend and secret rumours which happened an eternity ago. I have not read any of the Horus Heresy books yet. They may be gripping stories in and of themselves, but there is no way they can be an adequate account of the Imperium's history. Because there can be none, as it is one of the points that there isn't. It's a legend. As soon as you write it all out in a novel style narrative it is not a legend anymore.

 

This is a subject pretty dear to my heart. In a lot of cases, I think the primarchs should be used sparingly. I'm fine with the Horus Heresy novel series being from the point of view of their closest Astartes, trying to figure out how the primarchs perceive the world. I'm fine with momentary flashes of a primarch's train of thought, or the way they emote about something. I love the delicious conceit of "spying" on two primarchs having a conversation, or witnessing a private moment in a primarch's life.

 

But ultimately, the legend should be preserved. I don't want to know every detail of their lives. I want the rare scenes that will eventually become the fragmentary records of the setting.

 

I think Horus Rising and Legion did this perfectly. We got glimpses of something grand, something not entirely knowable, and then were shut out from seeing it all. I loved that. That was the atmosphere I wanted for The First Heretic, too. While the Fulgrim-style detailed fall, dealing with all the primarch's emotions and actions, certainly has its deserved horde of admirers, I felt something as insanely grand as the first Legion ever falling to Chaos needed a respectful distance where the primarch was concerned. Word Bearers worried about what others in their Legion are saying to the primarch, and how they might be manipulating him. The fears that rise from being away from Lorgar's side for a long time, and wondering what has changed in that absence. The brief glimpses into a primarch's heart, before he closes himself off again, to do what must be done. That's the kinda jazz that interests me. I don't want to see decades of conversations about Chaos and religion between Erebus, Kor Phaeron and Lorgar. That makes it banal and ordinary. I want to see the crucible moments, the fulcrum moments when everything was on a knife edge.

 

 

I think that with Fulgrim,it was actually necessary to have the detailed fall,because the reader really needed to see why. However, when you get to see glimpses of primarchs,that works equally well, like in Flight of the Eisenstein,we see a glimpse of Dorn,but that's it. Slightly off topic, but from what I can tell, The Horus Heresy series is one of the most popular ones that BL makes.

[A D-B]

I think that with Fulgrim,it was actually necessary to have the detailed fall,because the reader really needed to see why. However, when you get to see glimpses of primarchs,that works equally well, like in Flight of the Eisenstein,we see a glimpse of Dorn,but that's it. Slightly off topic, but from what I can tell, The Horus Heresy series is one of the most popular ones that BL makes.

 

The most popular, by a million, bajillion miles.

[Vissah]

What I like seeing is that the Marines are starting to become more and more of a military force. Some of the older books were all about killing, smashing and showing how hardcore they are.

This is what I really liked about Soul Hunter, they are not madmen they are a military force that is fighting the long war (nice one A D-:mellow:. I think this can come to the front a bit more in the Heresy series, let the Marines do the work and let the Primarch's be mysterious :)

[Lord Tharand]

I actually liked Fulgrim the most of the various HH novels. To me it was important to see that Fulgrim was perhaps one of the Emperor's most loyal sons but that he was always afraid of feeling inferior. The Emperor's Children's fall was different than the Sons of Horus. It really started with Fulgrim so the reader was required to see that. How in fact he loved his father and brothers but his mind was weakened and ultimately made the wrong decisions. Even Horus was horrified by what happens to Fulgrim.

 

But I agree that we the readers don't need every detail. I've felt pretty happy with the descriptions of Ullanor so far in the series. I've been told enough to know it was a monumental event and the changing of an Era. Sort of like in Star Wars Episode 3 where Palpatine changes the name of the Republic to the First Galactic Empire. It was a quick moment in the movie but defining for the rest of the series. We don't always need an entire chapter of information about these events!

 

Just my thoughts.

[Rain]

I find it interesting that people want it left in mist and mystique.

 

Hollywood executives have a new movie. It is awesome. They unleash trailers in the form of pamphlets. We are all hooked. We ache for the movie to come. It never comes.

 

You like that?

 

"Grandad was perhaps the most awesome fisherman in the history of the universe." Lil' Jimmy is enthralled. "Tell me more Gran," he cries. "Well because I won't bother telling you the full amazingness of it all (parallel to not writing a great story) I'll just never tell you about it, so just fantasise about it Jimmy and you'll never be disappointed"

 

Such a rich re-telling wasted because Gran didn't put in the effort.

All BL needs to do is leave no-holds-barred when writing them and we would not be disappointed. I was not disappointed by LoTR nor the movies.

All that needs doing is for BL to bring the Legend to life.

 

Disappointed by Star Wars prequols? Me too (though 3 I liked). The reason they cheapened the Legend was because George Lucas insisted that what he wrote for his child/grandchild was good enough to be made into a movie. So 1 was horrid-ish. It needn't have been that way. George could have kept Phantom Menace version 1.0 for his boy and then went full-bore to make a version on par and above that of the Legend 3.

 

That is all BL needs to do.

 

The HH series needs to be their best works ever. Then we would all love them and feel it was the only logical choice for them to write them.

Instead the rush them and write stuff that is okay or even good when it needs to be *angel appearing* HALLELUJAH!

 

They can do it. They just need to put the effort in.

 

I M O ;)

 

First off, saying that something needs to be "the best ever" and making it "the best ever" are two very different undertakings, I'm sure Lucas didn't mean for the prequels to be bad either, though honestly I don't think the original films are really great from any objective standpoint either, and probably just love them from childhood nostalgia.

 

Anyway, I agree with the legion of letters that A D-B has assembled, and agree that if done, it's best done in a manner that at the very least does not delve straight into the heads of primarchs (like in Legion which is my favorite BL book). For this and other reasons, I hated Fulgrim to the point that it killed my desire to play an EC army but I'm not going to retread that again as I've typed up long diatribes about it before.

 

Finally there's the point that there's a difference between telling no story and leaving mysteries within the context of the story that is being told. Warhammer 40k's story is about the 41st millennium, it's right there in the brand name, and within the context of that time, the age of the Heresy is a legend shrouded in mystery. The tales that occur in the "contemporary" age are all well and good to be told in explicit detail, and even reminiscence of Heresy veteran Chaos marines are all good and fine, but all within the frame of a character's memory.

 

It's like the first Alien movie, which I assume everyone here has seen because you're not a sci-fi fan if you haven't and 40kers are probably all sci fi fans. The story is told and there insight into the characters (Dallas is trying to retain some order, Parker is scared and scared to admit it, etc) and concrete things happen, and we know that the alien impregnates people and all that, but we don't know what precisely the alien is, what it wants, how it got to be on the crashed ship, or anything like that. So while there is a definite story told throughout the film, there is a mystery there as well, and that mystery is in large part what makes it interesting. I don't know about you, but I would rather not ever know the alien's family tree and whether it takes its coffee black or with creme.

[A D-B]

First off, saying that something needs to be "the best ever" and making it "the best ever" are two very different undertakings...

 

That, and people's opinion of what "the best ever" might be will always be different. A super-duper description of the Emperor at war on Ullanor would be the exact opposite of "the best ever" for me.

 

...though honestly I don't think the original films are really great from any objective standpoint either, and probably just love them from childhood nostalgia.

 

I think not, sir. Don't sound so resigned and defeated. Remember, they're great, inspiring, funny and ultimately fun family movies, with something for every age group, and expressing a genre brilliantly, by making space opera look good in a way practically no other films do. I'll never argue that they should've won a horde of Oscars, but they don't live on by nostalgia alone.

[Hyperion]

^ Agreed on both counts.

 

One of my favourite series of novels is the Winter of the World trilogy by Michael Scott Rohan. My username comes from the god of fire and smithcraft in the series (not the scandinavian epic) who you only hear about through the descriptions of mortals in the trilogy. In a prequel novel written later, Ilmarinen himself appears to rescue a smith (who he claims as one of his own) and there is a considerable "woh" factor, seeing him at his full power and majesty after all the secondhand descriptions in original books. It wouldn't be nearly as impressive otherwise, and seeing the Emperor fight needs the same buildup (more, in fact).

 

The original Star Wars trilogy, although not flawless, have many aspects that make them enduring classics. Whether its the gritty realism of the original models (rather than the naff replacement CGI in the special editions), the poignancy of many scenes or just the decent dialogue and characterisation (notably lacking in the prequels) they have a depth and soul that the prequels totally lacked. I could go on for a long time about how disappointed I was with I-III, but the two unforgivable sins were the lack of believable dialogue (shudder) and the apparent belief that children need a dumbed-down film. I've just seen Toy Story 3 and once again Pixar have shown it's perfectly possible to have a film that appeals to both children and adults, without insulting either (are you listening Lucas?!).

 

Alien is a great movie, but it does highlight the danger of ruining things in the last 5 minutes. Genuine suspense and creeping horror throughout almost the entire film, then... guy in a rubber suit. Meh.

 

The climax of the Heresy needs to be handled perfectly, or it could suffer a similar fate. I know that Mr Abnett and Mr McNeill will probably be given the responsibility of handling it, but (no offence to either of them) I am seriously hoping that ADB is also heavily involved, as I massively enjoy his scenes and descriptions, which provide many "woh" moments.

[Walter Payton]

I am tempted to get "First Heretic", though, mainly to see how the greatest of the Primarchs is being described.

 

Yeah, Lorgar was pretty cool :P

 

Oh, you meant Guilliman, silly me. Then you must mean to see how the latest of the Primarchs is being described. ;)

 

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones... ;)

 

As for Ullanor, I would prefer to see it as part of the Space Marine Battles series-it would do it more justice to see one of the galaxy's greatest battles presented, well, as a battle. Or even as a pseudo historical document, like the 13th Black Crusade and Sabbat Worlds Books.

[Rain]

I think not, sir. Don't sound so resigned and defeated. Remember, they're great, inspiring, funny and ultimately fun family movies, with something for every age group, and expressing a genre brilliantly, by making space opera look good in a way practically no other films do. I'll never argue that they should've won a horde of Oscars, but they don't live on by nostalgia alone.

 

I suppose I mean compared to how they are often perceived, especially by the shall we say, nerdy crowd that I would think the regulars of this forum belong to. Yes they are a well done space opera, but at the end of the day it's all a pretty formulaic Hero's Journey that checks off all of the boxes and has laser swords. But yeah it's fun, and it does what it intends to, but I still think they are a bit over-praised. That said, I used to love Boba Fett as a kid and always wondered about who he was, where he came from and why he always wore that mask. Then the prequels came along and ruined it by making him a clone from New Zealand. Hmm there's a metaphor for the HH series in there somewhere, and not a well hidden one.

 

@ Ilmarinen: Oh and as for the "rubber suit" at the end of Alien, I assume you mean the scene where the creature is dangling in the turbine/exhaust port thing and it looks like a guy in a suit with a big tail attatched? Yeah that scene is bad, but it just goes to show, that sometimes less is more. Also, I dread McNiell being given part of the Heresy climax. Yeah he is the only HH author that was actually involved in the uniformly excellent IA series, but the man just cannot write fiction prose to save his life; depending on descriptions of just how smashed a bolter round causes a person's chest to be instead of characters that the reader should actually give two craps about.

[calgar101]

I personally think that more light needs to be shed on Ullanor; not a sun amount of light maybe a candle or 30watt bulb. Its such an important role in the crusade, nay the Imperiums history that to leave it with barely anything? well...

 

 

Also if Dan and Aaron don't do the Seige of Terra and the HH climax well i just wont read it.

[The emperors chosen]

I would actually prefer them not to cover Ullanor, as I think they should leave some things uncovered, so that we(the readers) can fill it in.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

First off, saying that something needs to be "the best ever" and making it "the best ever" are two very different undertakings, I'm sure Lucas didn't mean for the prequels to be bad either, though honestly I don't think the original films are really great from any objective standpoint either, and probably just love them from childhood nostalgia.

 

Finally there's the point that there's a difference between telling no story and leaving mysteries within the context of the story that is being told. Warhammer 40k's story is about the 41st millennium, it's right there in the brand name, and within the context of that time, the age of the Heresy is a legend shrouded in mystery. The tales that occur in the "contemporary" age are all well and good to be told in explicit detail, and even reminiscence of Heresy veteran Chaos marines are all good and fine, but all within the frame of a character's memory.

 

Cool.

My opinion on Star Warses iv - vi, is that for the time they were as good a movie could be for a SciFi. The effects were exciting and one was left with a sense of wonder about the Universe. Leiya and Solo were such great characters, Solo actually much more stimulating now as an adult (29) than Luke was when I first was watching them (5ish).

The Aliens were fun, the impersonal Storm troopers made for great goons and Vader, the Emperor, Obi-wan and Yoda were great in personifying the forces of good and evil.

 

Star Warses i - iii had very flat story lines. JarJar made dudes angry, Darth Maul was used up far too quickly, and Vader learning Pad Mae's fate was cringeworthy.

The superior age of technology (parallels to HH v 40K) was excellent and I did enjoy the politics Palpatine used. So it did have good bits, but other bits were let downs.

The next generation of a product should become better, in all aspects, from its predecessor. Manufacturers fail in this because they are driven by shareholders howling for increased share value.

 

Lucas and BL need not succumb to such pressure - they can pay the bills with products that are not held so dearly to the customers hearts. HH and Star Wars i - iii are not just entertainment to us. They are a modern mythos that we treasure and delight in.

 

I guess why I'd like the HH to be fleshed out is that showing its Golden Era quality (for the Imperium anyway) reveals how defunct and messed up 40K is. Grimdark is just weird to be honest. But showing it in contrast to 30K (which is much more what our, or at least my, fantasy for humanity would contain ~ us reaching greatness. Sorry Mr Alien. :P ) shows you how wack-job 40K is, and what lead to it being so messed up. Weird for weird's sake just seems like "oh, let's make this as goofy as we want" but juxtaposed to clarity of purpose gives Grimdark foundation and meaning.

 

I never watched the Aliens movies ~ I was not allowed to watch them and when I grew up, I never had a want to watch them. Maybe I should ;)

 

^ Agreed on both counts.

 

One of my favourite series of novels is the Winter of the World trilogy by Michael Scott Rohan. My username comes from the god of fire and smithcraft in the series (not the scandinavian epic) who you only hear about through the descriptions of mortals in the trilogy. In a prequel novel written later, Ilmarinen himself appears to rescue a smith (who he claims as one of his own) and there is a considerable "woh" factor, seeing him at his full power and majesty after all the secondhand descriptions in original books. It wouldn't be nearly as impressive otherwise, and seeing the Emperor fight needs the same buildup (more, in fact).

 

This is what I'm talking about. It needs to be of the calibre that makes fans and none fans go woah!

 

+++

 

I do get what you "mists" people are talking about. However, I think that they will be done - they are to tempting to tackle both for dollars worth, challenge to the BL authors skeeyulz and if nailed, would be a tremendous feather in the cap of the GW universe, to not be attempted.

 

No matter what is done, someone will always be offended. Even the very best penmanship will leave those wanting it veiled feeling something that should not be touched was touched, and those wanting it covered will always feel a longing unfulfilled if it isn't covered.

C'est la vie.

 

*I have learnt to lay down some of my preferences and relaxed into the hot-tub, so to speak, when something inevitable is coming.

An example was that we moved house recently. I did not feel it necessary. But I live somewhere new and instead of wishing for yesteryear, I choose to love this new house and new suburb.

Silver lining, half-full, etc. :)

[Rain]

Yeah I can understand that, and it's not like I've boycotted the HH or anything, I've read quite a few of them, actually probably more than all other BL combined, so I guess after all of my -----ing I still did what GW wanted, but hey that's life, we are all good little predictable worker bees. That said, you haven't seen Alien? Wow.

 

I first saw it when I was 6 years old and though it scared me quite a lot it has gone on to become my favorite sci fi film ever and that's no small order. Then again, it's probably a your mileage may vary kind of thing as its a very bleak and pessimistic movie with some Freudian undertones about beat and the death drive which I actually didn't pick up on until much later. In fact, in the original scripted ending, the alien kills Ripley and then sends a message to Earth in her voice claiming to be a survivor that needs to be rescued. Fox vetoed that seeing it as too well, grimdark but it still presents a very different universe from Star Wars.

[Skirax]

I personally think that more light needs to be shed on Ullanor; not a sun amount of light maybe a candle or 30watt bulb. Its such an important role in the crusade, nay the Imperiums history that to leave it with barely anything? well...

 

 

Also if Dan and Aaron don't do the Seige of Terra and the HH climax well i just wont read it.

I'm with Calgar101 all the way here. Agree on both accounts. I reckon they should do the similar thing they did with the Tragedy of Prospero with the Final Battle; have Dabnett write the Emperor's point of view, and ADB write Horus' point of view.

 

And I maintain that the last line of the last book should be, 'I was there. I was there the day the Emperor killed Horus' as a mirror comment to the first line of the first book.

[Donkey Kong]

And I maintain that the last line of the last book should be, 'I was there. I was there the day the Emperor killed Horus' as a mirror comment to the first line of the first book.

 

While I agree that a mirror like that would be brilliant, I think that saying the "Emperor killed Horus" is pretty silly, what is Horus the name of an Ork Warboss?

 

"I was there. I was there the day Horus save the Emperor." would be one of the most important lines of simple father-son love between the Emperor and Horus and just show the true tragedy behind the Horus Heresy and 40k in general.