Wolves VS. Guard

[obs0l3te]

Guard Super Cheese Army!

 

3x Vendetta Squad

3x Vendetta Squad

 

2x Company Command in Chimeras, heavy flamer, 4x melta

 

6x vet squads in chimeras heavy flamer, 3x melta each.

 

 

-9 TL Las Cannon shots from one Vendetta Squad

 

-9 TL Las Cannon Shots from the other squad

 

all the chimeras have heavy flamers for horde.

 

The guy drives up to you and basically unleashes Melta death.

 

Any ideas?

[Simo429]

Missile Spam

 

15 missiles going for the vendettas

 

Scouts OBEL

 

Meet Meltas with Meltas with your Grey Hunters

 

TWC to stay out of melta range and then eat the :cussers

[obs0l3te]

Tried that....

 

and more.

 

2 units of 6 long fangs each with Las Cannon, Missle Launchers....even had TWLC razor backs in one list, and wolf guard with Cyclones in another.

 

I managed to take out all but one gun ship..... (only got 1... KP for the one squad of them)

 

problem is when all that melta and heavy flamer death hits you, your in trouble....

[wolf363839]

Well he can only shoot at 2 targets per turn with his Vendetta squadrons, so I would expect two tank/heavy infantry units to be hurting each turn. The upside to that means that the rest of your army is free to close with an exposed portion of the enemy chimeras. Focus on attacking one flank. He has 22 kill points if I read it right, so annihilation missions are doable. Use multiple anti-tank stuff to crack open those chimeras and go heavy on TWC to quickly close the distance. I recommend SS's for the TWC to limit his melta madness.

 

I hope success in 40K is not tied to how much money you can pump into an army....($750ish)

 

I would actually like to play this army just to see how well I would do...

[CainTheHunter]

Rune priests with Tempest? Vendettas are skimmers so...

Add WG with Cyclones to Long Fangs, add Rune Priest with master of runes and stormcaller+tempest.

 

Deep striking Land speeders with typhoon launchers or multimelta. Everything non-relevant goes to reserve.

[wolf363839]

edit, 18 KPs

[Heimdall Skullcrusher]

Rune priests with Tempest? Vendettas are skimmers so...

Add WG with Cyclones to Long Fangs, add Rune Priest with master of runes and stormcaller+tempest.

 

Deep striking Land speeders with typhoon launchers or multimelta. Everything non-relevant goes to reserve.

 

The problem with Tempests Wrath is that if he is anything like the IG player i've gone against. He is holding them back anyways so it is most likely out of range of Tempests Wrath anyways. The one thing with that though is if he doesn't move them, you auto-hit. So if you can get some scout units w/ Melta-Bombs or Power fists you can start taking them down. I haven't beat the guy yet, but thats my plan is to go heavy on the scouts next time I play him.

[KiltedMarine]

I don't mean to be impertinent, but my question is this:

 

Why do you continue playing against this guy?

 

He's playing an egregious SPAM list, and in my experience that usually means he's probably not an entertaining opponent. If it's not fun, why play? He may kind of need to have somebody clue him in that his army is no fun to play against.

 

I'm just sayin'. In a tournament, that's one thing. Game Night is entirely another, and IMO, SPAM lists don't belong at Game Night.

[Godhead]

Take out the vendettas. Try to blockade his chimeras, so that he can't split portions of your army off, and keeps some of those meltas out of range. If you can stop the lead transports it will slow down his overall movement. Try to get his vets out on foot and position your charges so that only a portion of your unit is actually in combat so that when you pile in then you should hopefully finish his squad during his assault phase.

 

I fought a list like this during the second round of 'Ard Boyz. It's rough but definitely manageable.

[Blitzkreig]

Well as he isn't using any Main-line battle tanks (Leman Russes... the irony of it) a Missile Heavy list should do quite nicely with adequate support.

 

I would try to include these units although I don't know the points value of that list.

 

Njal Stormcaller (Lord of Tempests is godly against a list like that I find, Vengeful Tornado especially)

Power-Armored Wolf Guard (load them up with combi-meltas and use them in a drop pod.... If a unit of 5 can pop a Vendetta they have made their points back.... I think)

Grey Hunters (Tooled with Plasma over Melta, as he isn't running main line tanks and S7 at 24" can pop a Chimera quite easily, I do it all the time)

Long Fangs (5x Missile Launchers, the attached Wolf Guard packing a Cyclone)

 

All in all it isn't so much a list that will help you beat him as a play-style. Aggresive Guard players like him tend to over look certain short-comings in their list, namely the counter-assault element (which we excel at). If you take small units you can block flamers, grant cover saves and use a larger unit to assault following his attempt at reaching them.

 

Don't play defensively, against a player who is aggressive, be aggressive. Seive the Initiative (not by rolling), force him onto the back-foot, corner him. If you can rob him of his strategy, you can beat him easily. Guard (especially a list like his) focus on a single facet of combat. In his case, close range combat. We may be Wolves be we are still Marines damnit and Marines can take any foe in any scenario. Its just a matter of engaging him either where you are strongest (close range combat) or where he is weakest (extremely long range or hand-to-hand).

[Grey Mage]

Guard Super Cheese Army!

 

3x Vendetta Squad

3x Vendetta Squad

 

2x Company Command in Chimeras, heavy flamer, 4x melta

 

6x vet squads in chimeras heavy flamer, 3x melta each.

 

 

-9 TL Las Cannon shots from one Vendetta Squad

 

-9 TL Las Cannon Shots from the other squad

 

all the chimeras have heavy flamers for horde.

 

The guy drives up to you and basically unleashes Melta death.

 

Any ideas?

Dont rely on vehicles, and laugh at the poor sucker.

 

Seriously, two squadrons? Dead on a 4+? From a Missile Launcher? Wow.

 

This looks like its about 1850?

 

 

Rune Priest- Stormcaller, Living Lightning, Bike- 135pts.

 

Dreadnaught- AC, HF, EA, DP- 165pts.

Dreadnaught- AC, HF, EA, DP- 165pts.

 

10 GHs- 2x PG, PF, DP- 220pts.

10 GHs- 2x PG, PF, DP- 220pts.

10 GHs- 2x PG, PF, DP- 220pts.

10 GHs- 2x MG, PW, DP- 205pts.

10 GHs- 2x MG, PW, DP- 205pts.

 

Whirlwind-85pts.

5xLF- 4xML- 115pts.

5xLF- 4xML- 115pts.

 

1850pts.

[Corby]

Guard Super Cheese Army!

 

3x Vendetta Squad

3x Vendetta Squad

 

2x Company Command in Chimeras, heavy flamer, 4x melta

 

6x vet squads in chimeras heavy flamer, 3x melta each.

 

 

-9 TL Las Cannon shots from one Vendetta Squad

 

-9 TL Las Cannon Shots from the other squad

 

all the chimeras have heavy flamers for horde.

 

The guy drives up to you and basically unleashes Melta death.

 

Any ideas?

Dont rely on vehicles, and laugh at the poor sucker.

 

Seriously, two squadrons? Dead on a 4+? From a Missile Launcher? Wow.

 

This looks like its about 1850?

 

 

Rune Priest- Stormcaller, Living Lightning, Bike- 135pts.

 

Dreadnaught- AC, HF, EA, DP- 165pts.

Dreadnaught- AC, HF, EA, DP- 165pts.

 

10 GHs- 2x PG, PF, DP- 220pts.

10 GHs- 2x PG, PF, DP- 220pts.

10 GHs- 2x PG, PF, DP- 220pts.

10 GHs- 2x MG, PW, DP- 205pts.

10 GHs- 2x MG, PW, DP- 205pts.

 

Whirlwind-85pts.

5xLF- 4xML- 115pts.

5xLF- 4xML- 115pts.

 

1850pts.

 

Another Quality List from Grey Mage.

[obs0l3te]

I simply cannot agree with Grey Mages list at all. That Rune priest can't survive that many multi laser shots. The dread will get popped very quickly by the vendetta. And once the grey hunters get close enough to shot they will eat a ton of heavy flamer me

lta and las cannon fire to kill a good amount of those foot troops.

 

As for playing against, can't help it if its in a tourny. By the great wolf beard is never play this list in a one off game

 

The list is 2k BTW.

[Corby]

I simply cannot agree with Grey Mages list at all. That Rune priest can't survive that many multi laser shots. The dread will get popped very quickly by the vendetta. And once the grey hunters get close enough to shot they will eat a ton of heavy flamer me

lta and las cannon fire to kill a good amount of those foot troops.

 

As for playing against, can't help it if its in a tourny. By the great wolf beard is never play this list in a one off game

 

The list is 2k BTW.

 

I think with all those pods coming down turn 1 , hes gona overlook that lone biker. Also once those pods open his vehicles will be taking a boatload of special weapons fire which will crack open transports to pieplate vets with the whirlwind.

[Blitzkreig]

I simply cannot agree with Grey Mages list at all. That Rune priest can't survive that many multi laser shots. The dread will get popped very quickly by the vendetta. And once the grey hunters get close enough to shot they will eat a ton of heavy flamer me

lta and las cannon fire to kill a good amount of those foot troops.

 

As for playing against, can't help it if its in a tourny. By the great wolf beard is never play this list in a one off game

 

The list is 2k BTW.

 

FOR ANNHILATION MISSIONS ONLY!

 

HQ:

Njal Stormcaller, Runic Terminator Armour - 270 Points

 

ELITES:

Dreadnought, Twin-linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher - 145 Points

Dreadnought, Twin-linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher - 145 Points

Dreadnought, Twin-linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher - 145 Points

 

TROOPS:

10 Grey Hunters, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino - 190 Points

10 Grey Hunters, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino - 190 Points

10 Grey Hunters, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino - 190 Points

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

6 Long Fangs, 5 Lascannons, Razorback with Twin-linked Lascannons - 290 Points

6 Long Fangs, 5 Lascannons - 215 Points

6 Long Fangs, 5 Lascannons - 215 Points

 

TOTAL POINTS: 1995

KILL POINTS: 14

 

Lascannon Shots per turn: 19

Meltagun Shots per turn: 6

Missile Launcher Shots per turn: 3

 

Unless you have some seriously bad luck, your gonna blow something before he wipes you out.

 

Edit: When I added up the points I forgot to change Njal's.

[Heimdal]

Grey Mage`s list still is a good one. With the extra points it can be expanded with even more Long Fangs. 15 Missile Launchers shooting at 6 different targets will put out a world of hurt. Cant say I like that Whirlwind though, 3 packs with LF`sscattered around the whole deployment zone will be outright nasty and hard to counter. Get an ablative wound though in the form of Wolf Guards.

 

You will have the first shot most of the time due to drop podding

[Simo429]

It seems to me that the OP is worried about losing any men at all

 

GM's list isnt a defo win list it is however something that will give you a very good chance.

 

18 missles on 6 targets gives you a great chance of not having a lot left to shoot back at you with such weak armour

[Hotspur]

Like others here, I like Mage's list. You should try out something similar, or that list exactly if you have the pieces, and see how it does against your spammer friend.

 

Good luck.

[Grey Mage]

I simply cannot agree with Grey Mages list at all. That Rune priest can't survive that many multi laser shots. The dread will get popped very quickly by the vendetta. And once the grey hunters get close enough to shot they will eat a ton of heavy flamer me

lta and las cannon fire to kill a good amount of those foot troops.

 

As for playing against, can't help it if its in a tourny. By the great wolf beard is never play this list in a one off game

 

The list is 2k BTW.

Why? Lascannons arent that strong... and if your worried, then dont drop it down turn 1- use more GHs. Yes, 9 Lascannons will probly take down 1 of them... but why are you letting him hit you unobscured with 9 lascannons? Drop intellegently, and use cover in your DZ.

 

And the RP isnt running on his own- the bike is for maneuverability at later stages in the game, and a T increase in the meantime- he stays with a LF unit until you need him somewhere else, then turboboosts as needed to the spot you want him.

 

I simply cannot agree with Grey Mages list at all. That Rune priest can't survive that many multi laser shots. The dread will get popped very quickly by the vendetta. And once the grey hunters get close enough to shot they will eat a ton of heavy flamer me

lta and las cannon fire to kill a good amount of those foot troops.

 

As for playing against, can't help it if its in a tourny. By the great wolf beard is never play this list in a one off game

 

The list is 2k BTW.

 

I think with all those pods coming down turn 1 , hes gona overlook that lone biker. Also once those pods open his vehicles will be taking a boatload of special weapons fire which will crack open transports to pieplate vets with the whirlwind.

 

2k Huh? Well, thats even better then.

 

2x DPs for the Long Fangs- 70pts.

Drop the bike on the priest, get a second one- with Tempests Wrath and Living Lightning- 65pts.

2x Meltabombs on the priests, and a WTT on one of the dreads, just in case- 15pts.

 

So now you have 9 pods, and can mix and match wich five come down to your hearts content- Feeling overwhelmed, your opponent got second deployment and went all reserves? Drop your plasmahunter packs in advanced positions with good cover, and run into it- drop the empty pods to block movement on those chimeras, or crucial LOS points as needed. Your opponent is overconfident with his list? Cool- Punish him for it and drop Melta Hunters and Dreads, with a Plasmapack on the flank and remove his transports- then eat the men inside them. Are his vendettas in reserve? If so then LFs can target transports. If not, then make use of the fact that its almost impossible to hide one of those gunships and lay some 48" death on him. Split Fire for the Rune Priests to use their shots on transports, or just hit the vendettas a bit harder.

 

You dont have to remove the whole list in one turn- hes got nothing in the way of hotshots, so AP 3 isnt an issue in this list. Hes lacking artillery... so instead of taking vital time removing that, you just have to get down to the meat and potatos of butchering gaurdsmen.

 

Frankly, its like fighting orks- the trucks are a little more shooty, and the kethkoptas explode, but all in all a balanced list can eat this for breakfast.

 

No, the list isnt tailored... Im sure we could wrack our brains for hours looking for something thats 100% optimized- but its also balanced enough to take the fight to the other 2-4 opponents youll see that day, wich has to be taken into consideration in a tournament.

[Stormbrow II]

Wait - so he's got 6 Valks packed into 2 squads? Nice. When you pen you've got a 50/50 chance to kill one, 66% if you have an AP1 weapon. One very simple way to counter this list is to take a Wolfblob and Long Fangs. As others have already noted the Fangs with Missiles should be taking care of AV 12. Concentrate on pulling the Vendettas down as they are likely his main source of mobility for objective grabbing and cock-blocking your units.

 

The Wolfblob is simply a big unit of Fenris Wolves with a couple of Wolf Lords/WGBL attached. You might worry about the Guard mauling the unit with Flamers but if he's close enough to use them then he's in assault range where you have the advantage. My own unit is:

 

Wolf Lord on TWC with Runic Armour, Storm Shield, Saga of the Bear, Hammer, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman

Wolf Lord on TWC with Runic Armour, Storm Shield, Saga of Majesty, Wolf Claw, Wolf Tail Talisman

13 Fenris Wolves.

 

That's just over 600 points but it can take massive amounts of punishment before the Wolf Lords close in.

 

If I were to recommend one for you I'd suggest:

Wolf Lord on TWC with RA, SS, Majesty, Claw, WTT, 2 Fenris Wolves

Wolf Lord on TWC with RA, SS, THammer, WTT, 2 Fenris Wolves

WGBL on TWC with RA, SS, Fist, WTT, 2 Fenris Wolves

At least 11 Fenris Wolves.

 

If you're shop doesn't mind proxies then use Dreads for the characters as they're about the same size. When he shoots as the unit you laugh - 18 Lascannons? Whoop-de-:cussing-doo. You kill about 9 Wolves assuming you get 4+ cover saves which you really should by taking advantage of cover. If he does shoot all of them he's only moving 6" a turn. You throw your 3 characters into a unit of Vendettas and with 11 S10 attacks hitting on 4's you will pull down at least 1 of them. You should get at least 4 Hits/Auto-Pens. That's 1 on each Valk that dies on a 4.

 

If he wants to blow the unit away then let him. If you want to keep the unit alive then you can put hits onto the Characters Pet wolves. If he wants to Tank Shock let him - you have Ld 10. With a re-roll. He wants to use a Psyker Battle squad? Fine - you have 3D6 with one 5+ needed to stop the power dead.

 

The unit isn't cheap and is likely to be torrented away but it will give you the speed you need to close the gap with the Guard and mash them in combat. All you need to do is use them aggressively and push them up into his face and wait for him to make mistakes. You should the Wolves - fine, you leave my Fangs to shoot your stuff. You shoot my Fangs? Fine, you have a big blob in your lines.

 

Its not the be all and end all of units but it does cause problems for Guard as their anti-tank firepower simply isn't as effective as it is against other units simply because you have to go throw so many turds to even get close to the damage dealers.

 

Why do you continue playing against this guy?

 

He's playing an egregious SPAM list, and in my experience that usually means he's probably not an entertaining opponent. If it's not fun, why play? He may kind of need to have somebody clue him in that his army is no fun to play against.

 

I'm just sayin'. In a tournament, that's one thing. Game Night is entirely another, and IMO, SPAM lists don't belong at Game Night.

Why don't they belong at game night? What if its the only tournament practice someone can get. It might be fun for the OP to try to crack this list before anyone else does. You shouldn't go making assumptions based on your own biases. Its not constructive.

[Grey Mage]

Why do you continue playing against this guy?

 

He's playing an egregious SPAM list, and in my experience that usually means he's probably not an entertaining opponent. If it's not fun, why play? He may kind of need to have somebody clue him in that his army is no fun to play against.

 

I'm just sayin'. In a tournament, that's one thing. Game Night is entirely another, and IMO, SPAM lists don't belong at Game Night.

Why don't they belong at game night? What if its the only tournament practice someone can get. It might be fun for the OP to try to crack this list before anyone else does. You shouldn't go making assumptions based on your own biases. Its not constructive.

Well, his biases are just as good as ours. *spreads hands* and hes entitled to his opinion as you are to yours.

 

Personally, I wouldnt mind fighting this list... though if it was all he ever played I have to admit Id get bored fast.

 

I find however, that beating someones army into the ground on a reliable basis is a good way to get them to change tactics quickly.

[Karack Blackstone]

I have a guard list I'd like to consider trying that's similar in purpose to this one, but I'd find it fun in theory.

 

That said, I'd favor Scouts with Meltas, or the DP lists that have been posted. Is he holding those Vendettas in Reserve when starting against his opponents? If so, then I truly must recommend podding in as well. Just keep in mind a normal list or one with Rhinos/Razorbacks is going to have an issue responding to 24" moves by the Vendettas. There's no way to fire anything with a Vendetta doing that, unless it scout moves before the game and then empties...

 

The tactics as pointed out here inform me that podding of some variation would be best. A Nice setup might include Logan and a Meltapod if you wish, but having the LF's in cover in the start of the game is going to force you to lose some to the shooting the Vendettas can put out. That's 3 TLLC shots each.

[KiltedMarine]

Why do you continue playing against this guy?

 

He's playing an egregious SPAM list, and in my experience that usually means he's probably not an entertaining opponent. If it's not fun, why play? He may kind of need to have somebody clue him in that his army is no fun to play against.

 

I'm just sayin'. In a tournament, that's one thing. Game Night is entirely another, and IMO, SPAM lists don't belong at Game Night.

Why don't they belong at game night? What if its the only tournament practice someone can get. It might be fun for the OP to try to crack this list before anyone else does. You shouldn't go making assumptions based on your own biases. Its not constructive.

Well, his biases are just as good as ours. *spreads hands* and hes entitled to his opinion as you are to yours.

 

Personally, I wouldnt mind fighting this list... though if it was all he ever played I have to admit Id get bored fast.

 

I find however, that beating someones army into the ground on a reliable basis is a good way to get them to change tactics quickly.

 

GM, thank you for the good word.

 

Stormbrow, I apologize if my asking the question "why" somehow offended you. I have simply had to deal with a number of individuals over time who played the game only to win, and used SPAM lists of the type mentioned here. I've found that the best way in my opinion to change their habits is to simply not play, and spend my leisure time playing with people who actually make the game fun.

 

As for solutions to the problem, I echo the arguments that GM's list is a definite way forward. That many MLs will cause a lot of hurt.

[I Shun You!]

How is his list cheese? If the codex allows it to be taken then its not cheese, if he doing anything to win, or tailoring that's a different story. With a good of codex as we have it unnecessary to tailor, the only range unit in his list is from the vendettas, so tasking the long fangs to kill themis an effective move with those disabled even if your rhino's are lost you can charge the veterans and destroy them with gray hunters or other assault units. Also heres a list non tailored but has the ability to wreck your opponent.

 

 

1 Rune Priest in Power Armour w/Chooser of the Slain; Tempest's Wrath; Living Lighting.

 

2 Wolf Guard in Power Armour w/ Combi-Meltagun x2 w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

2 Wolf Guard in Power Armour w/ Combi-Meltagun x2 w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

2 Wolf Guard in Power Armour w/ Combi-Meltagun x2 w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

 

5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

 

1 Land Speeder (Heavy Bolter; Typhoon Missile Launcher)

1 Land Speeder (Heavy Bolter; Typhoon Missile Launcher)

1 Land Speeder (Heavy Bolter; Typhoon Missile Launcher)

 

1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour, 2 Long Fangs w/Missile Launchers, Squad Leader in Rhino.

1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour, 2 Long Fangs w/Missile Launchers, Squad Leader in Rhino.

1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour, 2 Long Fangs w/Missile Launchers, Squad Leader in Rhino.

 

Total Roster Cost: 1997

 

Lascannon shots: 10

Missle Shots:12

Melta guns: 6

 

This list is by Stelek by the way.

[Wysten]

Eh? Is any ungrouped Wolf Guard not count as a single unit? Surely the three groups of two wolf guard have to remain in a pack of 6?