Stormbrow II Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Stormbrow, I apologize if my asking the question "why" somehow offended you. I have simply had to deal with a number of individuals over time who played the game only to win, and used SPAM lists of the type mentioned here. I've found that the best way in my opinion to change their habits is to simply not play, and spend my leisure time playing with people who actually make the game fun. It doesn't matter if someone uses spam or not, as long as they're enjoying things. The OP didn't say he didn't enjoy it, merely that he wanted advice on how to beat it so asking why he still played it wasn't helpful. His opponent dropped close to €500 buying that army if he bought the majority of it from GW (ha!) or from a local shop. Even buying all that online will still set you back the bones of €350. I'd never advise someone to simply refuse to play the guy because if no-one plays him the hobby loses someone else. That's always a bad thing in my book. Fun is too relative a term to apply here - trying to crack this list might well be fun for the OP (it would be for me) while painful for you. I was disagreeing with you for posting nothing constructive (advice in helping him to beat this army) and simply suggesting he walk away. It was almost as useful as telling people if you faced this guy you'd leave and go cry into your ale while fapping to pics of the Ecclesiarchy's Bolter Bitches (sans armou) purifying heretics. Well, his biases are just as good as ours. *spreads hands* and hes entitled to his opinion as you are to yours. You'll get no argument from me. I'd simply prefer it if it were more helpful to the OP. Eh? Is any ungrouped Wolf Guard not count as a single unit? Surely the three groups of two wolf guard have to remain in a pack of 6? Don't think so. He bought 3 packs of 3 and assigned 1 from each to the Long Fangs which seems fine but then again I thought that the Wolf Guard that didn't split off to become Pack Leaders and remained in a squad had to be a minimum of 3 models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Use his Vendettas against them. EG. Low terrain, stick to one side of the board and keep youre units in vehicles. (and play victory points instead of Killpoints cause Killpoints are the most unbalanced things to use) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Shun You! Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Don't think so. He bought 3 packs of 3 and assigned 1 from each to the Long Fangs which seems fine but then again I thought that the Wolf Guard that didn't split off to become Pack Leaders and remained in a squad had to be a minimum of 3 models. Well this is usually the case because u split of into pack leader once the game starts you still purchased three filling out the requirement. Oh and with the faq even if u lose all the melta squads (and you should their suicide meltas) they don't count as a kill point as long as their pack leader lives. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 This list is by Stelek by the way. No wonder it it looks as bland as wheat bran left on the shelf to long. Sorry, but stelek is one of those players who makes 'spam lists' look like ';) holes'. Nothing at all different in any slot, max our your squads... This list would be owned in a decent KP game, and just prays its got enough units to keep your opponent from making a significant dent, but without actually making any of them tough to kill. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneSniperSG Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Guard Super Cheese Army! 3x Vendetta Squad 3x Vendetta Squad 2x Company Command in Chimeras, heavy flamer, 4x melta 6x vet squads in chimeras heavy flamer, 3x melta each. -9 TL Las Cannon shots from one Vendetta Squad -9 TL Las Cannon Shots from the other squad all the chimeras have heavy flamers for horde. The guy drives up to you and basically unleashes Melta death. Any ideas? Yes. Tell him to throw the skimmers out the window and take the wall-of-steel Leman Russes like a REAL Guard player does. Never before have I seen such abuse of a pathetic unit; the Vendetta. Kay, so he drives up and hoses you with meltaguns. And with that, I guess he keeps the infantry squads inside their chimeras, otherwise it's a total bust for him. Honestly I would try podding in Dreadnoughts with anti-tank stuff behind him. Take, oh.. four pods, put Lascannon dreadnoughts in two of them and Long Fangs in the other two. Get the Long Fangs in wherever is opportune, then when his tanks are up in your face, get the Dreadnoughts in behind to bust the Vendettas and such. I also agree with the deep-strike Land Speeders. Something that can stay out of melta range and suddenly get up in the face of the chimeras to bust them is always handy. Bikes and Speeders staying just out of melta range, then speed them up to get their own meltas into range of the chimera and pop it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 This list would be owned in a decent KP game, and just prays its got enough units to keep your opponent from making a significant dent, but without actually making any of them tough to kill. It would? Nah, just reserve and when you roll on start bagging vehicles and monsters. Its got enough high S and low AP stuff to do damage to both. Besides, KP are only 1/3 of games anyway. Yes. Tell him to throw the skimmers out the window and take the wall-of-steel Leman Russes like a REAL Guard player does. :lol: Subjectivity FTW! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 16 units means youll get reinforcements reliably... but low armor values and incredibly small unit sizes means that those 25 KPs are all easy to get at range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macharim Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Eh? Is any ungrouped Wolf Guard not count as a single unit? Surely the three groups of two wolf guard have to remain in a pack of 6? He uses all 3 Elite choices insted of buying them as one unit. It's legal but rarely worth it except for this purpose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 How can it be legal when it's 3 to 10, if memory serves correctly? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzkreig Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 How can it be legal when it's 3 to 10, if memory serves correctly? Wolf Guard have to be bought in a unit of 3 minimum, but they can go down to 2, 1 or even 0 members through their ability to become Squad Leaders, because they split at the start of the game. In other words, they are legal when the list is written and have a "special deployment rule"which allows them to go below the minimum unit size. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 How can it be legal when it's 3 to 10, if memory serves correctly? Because the 3rd one in each pack are already attached to the LF packs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macharim Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 How can it be legal when it's 3 to 10, if memory serves correctly? He splits off one from each squad to act as sergeants in other squads leaving two guys in each squad. It's a debatable practice (I've had it ruled both ways) but generally it's allowed since you follow RAW and buy 3, just not field them together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Aha, thank you all. I guess the use of WG and penny pinching to take on a list such as this is seen as an option. I'd just use my normal 2K list and hope for the best. That's how we tend to play at my store, build an all-comers list and hope... Sorry if this seems like an aside, it slipped me that he had the proper numbers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Shun You! Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 No wonder it it looks as bland as wheat bran left on the shelf to long. Sorry, but stelek is one of those players who makes 'spam lists' look like ':) holes'. Nothing at all different in any slot, max our your squads... This list would be owned in a decent KP game, and just prays its got enough units to keep your opponent from making a significant dent, but without actually making any of them tough to kill. hey personal incorrect preference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2468975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneSniperSG Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 This list would be owned in a decent KP game, and just prays its got enough units to keep your opponent from making a significant dent, but without actually making any of them tough to kill. It would? Nah, just reserve and when you roll on start bagging vehicles and monsters. Its got enough high S and low AP stuff to do damage to both. Besides, KP are only 1/3 of games anyway. Yes. Tell him to throw the skimmers out the window and take the wall-of-steel Leman Russes like a REAL Guard player does. :wub: Subjectivity FTW! Indeed. Any Guard player who shuns the Leman Russ should get a different army. Turning down that AV14 is suicide. There's a reason why my banner still has our long-lost Exterminator in it; there is no better tank in this game than a Leman Russ. (Land Raiders are not tanks, they're IFV's) 'Course I'm biased, since I have six of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2469010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzkreig Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 This list would be owned in a decent KP game, and just prays its got enough units to keep your opponent from making a significant dent, but without actually making any of them tough to kill. It would? Nah, just reserve and when you roll on start bagging vehicles and monsters. Its got enough high S and low AP stuff to do damage to both. Besides, KP are only 1/3 of games anyway. Yes. Tell him to throw the skimmers out the window and take the wall-of-steel Leman Russes like a REAL Guard player does. :cuss Subjectivity FTW! Indeed. Any Guard player who shuns the Leman Russ should get a different army. Turning down that AV14 is suicide. There's a reason why my banner still has our long-lost Exterminator in it; there is no better tank in this game than a Leman Russ. (Land Raiders are not tanks, they're IFV's) 'Course I'm biased, since I have six of them. Land Raiders are APCs aren't they? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2469042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneSniperSG Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Land Raiders are APCs aren't they? I think we came to the conclusion in another thread (loooong ago) that they are IFV's, due to the fact that they boast heavy weapons and a large transport capacity. But let's not start that discussion here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2469048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzkreig Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Land Raiders are APCs aren't they? I think we came to the conclusion in another thread (loooong ago) that they are IFV's, due to the fact that they boast heavy weapons and a large transport capacity. But let's not start that discussion here. I was under the impression that an IFV was designed to fight Infantry, hence Infantry Fighting Vehicle. If that is true then the Crusader and Redeemer variants are indeed IFV's however the Godhammer pattern Land Raider is most definetly not designed to fight Infantry (if it was, somebody doesn't understand overkill) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2469111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Indeed. Any Guard player who shuns the Leman Russ should get a different army. Turning down that AV14 is suicide. What? No it isn't. It's an incredible points sink. I'd much rather have that spread out in more efficient stuff like Manticores, Hydras, Chimeras and Vendettas. Eldar Falcon with Holofields and Spirit Stones is up there as arguably the best tank in the game btw. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2469178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmurph Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Hmm, I don't understand the whole not wanting to play because the other's guys list is too tough. Sounds like some pretty soft Space Wolves! :) As has been pointed out, squadrons of AV 12 are fragile. They also have to forego their shooting to maximize mobility. So they are either shooting the LCs OR delivering the squads, but not both. Your setup should have LFs with missiles (you may want to roll a LC or two into each squad) in cover- these will be hell on the valks and hard to dig out. (5 missiles/turn is 3-4 hits needing a 4+ to do something. Adding a cyclone ups the firepower even more.) Razorbacks sporting LCs should back them up, preferably using cover. Getting LOS to the Valks should be very easy! If suitable cover is not availible, use rhinos (and each other) for cover. Remember that the RBs can be completely behind something then scoot out 6 and fire the LC. They can also shoot over other rhino chassis. If your opponent is going first, you may want to reserve and roll on in you turn. Stormcaller can also provide limited protection. Your GH squads with meltas are superior to his Vets in chimera. If you can counter the valks early with missiles, your guns can turn on the chimeras. Beware the multilaser, however, as they can mass to take down a rhino and leave the squad footslogging- however the multi lasers aren't very scary to the marines on foot thanks to the 3+ save. If you can get his vets out of a chimera, bolter fire will shred them. Three drop pods so you can drop melta squads (either GHs or WG's w/Combis) in his backfield turn one can also devastate such a mech list when combined with the LFs and RBs ranged threat. I wouldn't do a dread, though, as their is easily enough melta fire to quickly neutralize it. OBEL scouts can wreak similar havoc. They key is going to be developing a coherent plan starting with deployment. Focus fire to bring down key targets then move on to the next. prioritze based on threat level. He has a solid mechanized list, but you have plenty of answers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2469357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 No wonder it it looks as bland as wheat bran left on the shelf to long. Sorry, but stelek is one of those players who makes 'spam lists' look like ':D holes'. Nothing at all different in any slot, max our your squads... This list would be owned in a decent KP game, and just prays its got enough units to keep your opponent from making a significant dent, but without actually making any of them tough to kill. hey personal incorrect preference. Personal Preferences are never incorrect, but some tactics are just sub-par. *shrugs* Ive said as much to steleks 'face' when he posts in the army list section things like you just showed... I think theyre badly thought out, and rely on the idea that your opponent doesnt have the right tool to obliterate any of the squads your spamming. In my experiance, thats a horrible gamble to make, and one youll lose alot against balanced lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2469567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanct Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 no love for the wolfguard combi-wep unit? 2x WG x10 - TA/CMLx2, Combi-MG x8. DP - 345 Stick one cml in long fangs. Pod the rest in his rear and start shooting. Every vehicle is RA 10 so you should plug a couple in the first drop (hell if you drop behind those vendetta's they are GONE!) He has to turn around to deal with them - delaying attacking movment and firepower against the rest. If he doesn't you got mobile missile shots from behind followed by a charge (on t2+) In a logan wing army they're even scoring and logan can buff the long fang/cml unit to relentless or S9. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2469757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymirl Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 A couple of solid long fang units in cover ought to have a decent shootout with vendettas, speeders attacking from reserve with typhoon launchers or deep striking with multi-meltas also hand out lots of damage. At the end of the day its a lot of firepower its quite fragile. If worse comes to worse try getting up close and assaulting them (wolf scouts are ideal as things like vendettas tend to hung their board edges), when they fly slowly to use all their guns they're easy targets for assault. Get base contact with one and your hits get distributed thoughout the whole enemy squadron.... Also of course if you feel brave, consider a land raider. Lascannons aren't that great at stopping one, and either it can attact enough fire away from the rest of your army for you to kill his firepower units and either put a unit into combat for good results, or start pelting firepower back their way. The lascannon version is actually pretty good for this, valks/vendes have a hard time getting cover saves and godhammer lascannons have a good effect against medium armour targets like these. Drop pods with melta weaponry also a good option, remember that you might lose the unit but as long as you get something for your loss thats ok. If thats simply an exchange of units or even oppotunity for you to bring other units up to position then maybe its worth sending a unit on a suicide run. Problem with pods is they can sometimes be easily countered by reserves and they give away kill points easily. This list is by Stelek by the way. Then take it back to him and tell him to write a legal list next time, Wolf guard have a minimum unit size of 3 not 2. And secondly while this list might suit this one opponent its going to bleed KPs and die against other armies. Thats quite apart from the fact that its so damn boring, cut and paste, cut and paste, cut and paste - any soft scoring is likely to beat this army with a stick. Stelek is in the buisness of mouthing off and throwing monkey poop at people from his little soapbox box, I'd suggest not taking too much of what he says as anything more than that. His commentary on lists is for entertainment purposes only. <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2469793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokafort Stonewolf Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 Well in real life he's mostly in the business of cheating, gambling on 40k, and otherwise being a bastard nobody except his little gang of groupies really likes, so how about we just put him in the "ignore bin"? By the way, children, read your books. That wolf guard list is legal for reasons already explained. What would I do against this evil list full of spam? Honestly, I don't even know. This looks like the kind of thing most wolf lists will scoop to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2469829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzkreig Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 Ok, max your lascannons and go to town on him. Or, max your missile launchers and go to town on him. Or, max your multi-meltas and drop pod in then go to town on him. At 2k points you could try this.... HQ: Wolf Guard Battle Leader w/ no extra equipment - only here to fulfill Force Org, let him die. ELITES: 3x Dreadnoughts w/ multi-meltas and drop pods - to drop in first turn near the Vendettas. TROOPS: 5x 10 Grey Hunters w/ 2x meltaguns and drop pods - 3 to drop in first turn near the Vendeattas, 2 to drop in with 2nd wave to claim objectives. HEAVY: 3x 6 Long Fangs w/ 5 missile launchers and drop pods - to drop in with 2nd wave and mop up guardsmen with frags, bust chimeras with kraks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/206773-wolves-vs-guard/page/2/#findComment-2469837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.