Threats to the Sanguinary Priest?

[mlund]

So when I was rechecking the Blood Angels Codex FAQ the note about when you check for distance to the Sanguinary Priest caught my attention. I'd always assumed Furious Charge kicked in when you, you know, charged. But by checking when you would roll to attack it opens up quite a vulnerable situation with the 1W Independent Character that is the Sanguinary Priest. If something you charge has Initiative 6 you probably won't be getting that S5 swings at I5. Your priest will get singled out in Close Combat and killed, leaving all your other Blood Angels feeling rather depressed and unenthusiastic.

 

I think this stuck in my mind especially because I just finished up a match last night with a Dark Eldar player. High Initiative is sort of what they do. What units can you think of that routinely bring Initiative 6+ to the table? I have to check my Codex, but I seem to remember being able to squeeze I6 out of my Chaos Lord. Orks don't have anything that fast. Codex: Space Marines don't have it. Blood Angels might have a Furious Captain or Mephiston. I didn't see anything in Codex: Space Wolves that seemed to give anyone I6. Tau don't have it. Imperial Guard don't have it.

 

So what about Chaos Daemons, Eldar, and Dark Elder?

 

- Marty Lund

[Venerable Jazzman]

I've been running a Captain with twin claws and a jump-pack, alongside a Vanguard squad and a Priest.

 

He tends to shred what I need him to shred at I6, and then the Vanguard kill off the rest of the threat.

 

I was running a Librarian when the codex first came out, but he just kept dying in combat, even with a Priest nearby. Next upgrade of the list will have a Reclusiarch for the re-rolls, and I'll probably downgrade the captain mini to the Vanguard sgt, as I feel every BA army should have at least one model with twin claws on it, somewhere. Just as well i've not painted it yet.

 

I'd love to have my old twin-clawed Librarian back as a legal option again, but I'll make do with a Codex I didn't have to print out myself...

[JamesI]

So far I have found it very rare that the priest is killed before I5 the turn of the charge (so rare I think it has yet to happen to me). My priest has often died at I4 or I1, but lives until then.

 

I was using a Reclusiarch at I6 to clear things out, also have used a Captain with twin claws, and am now using Astorath. I love having some potent character at I6 (or better if using Dante)

[Tame]

Well, almost all Eldar strike at I5... Eldar Exarchs, harlequins, a couple HQs (Avatar, Autarch) and special characters strike at I6 (or more!) ...

[terminatorAM]

Eldar can be a pain when it comes to initiative, our priests only let us breack even in that department against them. Ive yet to actually play a game with the new dex (been working too much), but ive heard alot of people using tactics like keeping him back in a charge and not in base-to-base so he cant be singled out. Is this still helpful for those who tried or am i missing some rule that disallows that?

[Zeller]

For the record, Dante is I6 base. Add in the priest and he is as fast as anything outside maybe an Archon or Keeper of Secrets.

 

I've been keeping my priest in the back of a squad as well. It's almost like baby sitting and it sucks considering the risk of putting him on the front.

[sac_ld]

At a quick glance at the Summary sheets the following are at I6 or higher:

 

Dark Eldar

Archon I7

Dracon I6

Incubi Master I6

Wych I6

Wych Succubus I6

Beastmaster I6

Reaver I6

Reaver Succubus I6

Hellion I6

Hellion Succubus I6

 

Eldar

Autarch I6

Avatar I6

Death Jester I6

Exarch I6

Harlequin I6

Phoenix Lord I7

Shadowseer I6

Troupe Master I6

Yriel I7

 

Necron

Necron Wraiths

 

Tyranids*

Broodlord I7

Deathleaper I7

Genestealer I6

Lictor I6

The Parasite of Mortrex I6

The Swarmlord I6

Ymgarl Genestealer I6

 

Chaos Daemons

Daemonette of Slaanesh I6

Herald of Slaanesh I7

Keeper of Secrets I10

The Masque I7

Seeker of Slaanesh I6

 

Chaos Space Marines

Abaddon I6

Lucius I6

 

Blood Angels

Commander Dante I6

Lemartes I6

Mephiston I7

The Sanguinor I6

 

*Note that Tyranids equipped with Lash Whips will sets the units in Base Contact Base Initiative to I1. this means with furious charge you will become I2.

[Somar]

forgot the howling banshees, first round of the assault they have I10, no matter who charged.

[lorider2]

As you can see, a fair amount of xenos CC specialists are I6 plus, and btw almost all have rending or power weapons. However, I dare ask does the timing of FC matter? Truth is, if you get into hth with banshees, the Swarmlord or Abaddon getting FC simply isn't going to matter to your troops much. They will be going last regardless and feel no pain isn't going to help much either! But if you are concerned about this, just branch off the priest before combat. As long as he is in 6", you get the FC and FNP anyways. He can follow behind combat and hopefully rejoin next turn if he is lucky. But I see this as more helpful to common problems of fists, etc.

[Midnightmare]

If you branch him off he'll most likely get shot to bits in the next shooting phase unless you join another unit.

[Sir Blayse]

wouldn't a lash whip still keep the int at 1, because the FC goes before the contact is made? in our games lash whip really makes CC not a nice idea.

 

 

second, would a priest in say a rhino/back, still give off a 6" to squads around that vehicle?

[Liltom]

I2 with furious charge against lash whips. FAQ said such modifiers are done after the reduction to I1, I think.

[sac_ld]

I2 with furious charge against lash whips. FAQ said such modifiers are done after the reduction to I1, I think.

 

Like Liltom said the FAQ states to do stat modifiers after the reduction to I1. That's why Eldar with Banshee Masks also remain at I10.

[LordofDeath11]

wouldn't a lash whip still keep the int at 1, because the FC goes before the contact is made? in our games lash whip really makes CC not a nice idea.

No furious charge takes affect when the attacks are made, so after b2b contact I'm thinking.

 

second, would a priest in say a rhino/back, still give off a 6" to squads around that vehicle?

Yes, it sure would.

[Brother Biskit]

Interesting question, Can you lose a rule you already have in effect. In the BA FAQ it gives that a rule applies to a unit when it is used. Since FC is used to determine Initiative at the start of combat, before blows are struck, then the rule is then in effect. For example, My RAS and priest charge the Swarmlord. We work out Initiative and the FC rule from the priest kicks in, giving my guys I5 vs the Swarmlords I6. The Swarmlord then chooses to split his attacks between the priest and the squad, mullering the priest and a few of the RAS. Since FC was applied to the unit at the beginning of the combat can it then be removed with the death of the priest, wouldn’t this then cause massive confusion if the unit was also in combat with a squad of I4 guys. Would the RAS strike first still and if so would they strike at S4 or S5?

[Deus_Sanguinius]

No! If you loose the priest before you could make your attacks you also loose the benefit of FC.

[TrentL]

When I charge with my units and a priest is attached I tend to move my priest last to make sure that what he's fighting he can surive. Or if possible at times I will even leave him out of base to base contact sure he cant' participate but his 2 attacks or the whole squad having +1str/init... I'll take the +1.

 

I almost always try and protect my priest if possible and only take him out when I'm charging something that him + the sgt + HQ if possible are all striking the high value target (Like an Ork Warboss)

 

Of course I have yet to fight any of the truly high initiative armies yet.

[SDarmy]

When using my SP i try to start the assault phase with him pinned in the center. ICs move first after the inital charger has reached btb. dont leave space enuff for him to pass between the bases of his unit and he has to move more then 6" to reach btb. then whn you move the regular guys in the unit he wont be in btb and therefore not targetable. this is very easy with the 40mm termmy bases but tricky with te standard bases but buried in a 10man squad he pretty well insulated.

Edit. Quick note. in the rules for assaults the nearest model to the targeted unit must move the shortest route to make BtB contact with the targeted unit. after that the IC MUST move up to his maximum assault distance to make btb contact with an enemy model not in btb. then all members of the squad must attempt to make btb with any further models not in btb. so you really gotta be tricky and block the IC from slipping in between the bases of his unit members. if his base can not fit between the gaps the he cant move even if it is models in his unit. hope that was realativly clear.

[Brother Nathan]

dont forget many other units can also get furious charge, ragnar, khan etc. and isnt one of the marine powers that makes the libby init 10? Also on the tryinads lash whip thing, does it usually matter if furious charge brings you up to initive 2 as most, if not all of their attacks are likely to have already hit you...

[Wicksy]

What this tends to mean is that you need to pick your fights wisely. If you face a squad of I6+ close combatters, dont let the buggers get near you! Kill them at range and let your guys get at stuff they can easily kill. It can be very tough to make sure this happens but its the best way forward IMO. Keeping the priest at the back is difficukt as you generally have to make IC's a viable target for close combat though if you're beardy and make sure they can only engage the combat by being at the back you can keep them safe(ish). I like sticking a power weapon on them and using them as an extra source of unsavable wounds. Today i had a unit of 5 assault marines (sgt with PW), a sanguninary priest with a PW and a captain all charge a unit of 10 plague marines. There wasnt anyone left to retalliate :P (i did get lucky though).

[Valerian]

When using my SP i try to start the assault phase with him pinned in the center. ICs move first after the inital charger has reached btb. dont leave space enuff for him to pass between the bases of his unit and he has to move more then 6" to reach btb. then whn you move the regular guys in the unit he wont be in btb and therefore not targetable. this is very easy with the 40mm termmy bases but tricky with te standard bases but buried in a 10man squad he pretty well insulated.

Edit. Quick note. in the rules for assaults the nearest model to the targeted unit must move the shortest route to make BtB contact with the targeted unit. after that the IC MUST move up to his maximum assault distance to make btb contact with an enemy model not in btb. then all members of the squad must attempt to make btb with any further models not in btb. so you really gotta be tricky and block the IC from slipping in between the bases of his unit members. if his base can not fit between the gaps the he cant move even if it is models in his unit. hope that was realativly clear.

 

You got this all wrong; ICs don't have to move before the rest of the unit on the charge. That's only for the countercharge/reaction move and Pile-ins. Read the part about Assaults in the rulebook again.

 

V