Wolf Claw v. Frost Weapon

[Brother Caleb]

Is it better to get the re-rolls to wound or have a higher strength?

 

Example: I get two opportunities to roll a 4 or one opportunity to roll a 3.

[Kanis]

I'm glad you asked this! I've been having this debate with myself for my Wolf Guard for a week. I like the idea of re-rolls for the claw, but having one more attack with S5 is also great. It's really a tough call...

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

wolf tooth necklace with frostblade

[Brother Caleb]

wolf tooth necklace with frostblade

Why not WTN with claw?

[Vorion]

if you want statistics its simple

 

Wolf Claw -

roll 10 dice and half will get that 4 up. Take those five that didn't make it and reroll them giving you 3 more that make it (Im rounding up) and now you have 7 wounds

 

Frost Blade -

roll 10 dice and 2/3 will make that 3 up. That means 7 (again rounding up) wound

 

fact is statistics do you no good here. Even on a toughness 5 model you get the same number of wounds for each. What it comes down to is if you want the bonus from the wolf claw when you roll to hit

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Frost Blade usually beats wolf claw simply because +1 Strength and +1 Attacks is better than rerolls. If you combine a frost blade with a Storm Shield however, you would lose your bonus attack for an offhand weapon. In this case, it is very likely that a wolf claw would result in more wounds.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

if you want statistics its simple

 

Er...

 

fact is statistics do you no good here.

 

Complete and utter baloney. For one thing, you didn't even do statistics, just some super rough estimates. Show everyone with actual numbers, going through the whole process, against a few different targets of varying toughness. THEN if everything comes out the same between the claw and the blade, AND ONLY THEN, can you claim statistics do no good here. (Hint: it won't be the same)

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Wolf Claw -

roll 10 dice

 

Frost Blade -

roll 10 dice

 

Explain to everyone why you are rolling the same number of dice for each weapon? You need two Wolf Claws to get a +1 attack bonus. Who said anything about two claws, which of course is far more expensive than a frostblade?

[Brother Caleb]

Wolf Claw -

roll 10 dice

 

Frost Blade -

roll 10 dice

 

Explain to everyone why you are rolling the same number of dice for each weapon? You need two Wolf Claws to get a +1 attack bonus. Who said anything about two claws, which of course is far more expensive than a frostblade?

To clarify, and simplify, I had a storm shield in mind for each.

[WG Vrox]

- If I remember the math hammer done more than a few times on this forum, when you don't factor in the additional +1 attack they come out about the same until you start going up against T5 units, then the frost blade takes the lead.

 

Even though the FB does come out slightly better in the math hammer, it's more expensive point wise. So if you are going to do a SS/FB or WC, it comes down to personal preference. When you are doing BP/FB or WC the FB is the better choice due to the additional attack and the advantage it has against T5 models so is worth the extra points.

 

-Vrox

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

To clarify, and simplify, I had a storm shield in mind for each.

 

I ran the numbers for exactly this, except it was for a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf. At those strength levels, 6 and 5 for the blade and claw respectively, I found that the wolf claw came out ahead. If you took a belt of russ with the frost blade so that you got another attack with it, the blade would come out ahead. It isn't a huge difference, but it is a difference. I don't have the numbers on this computer and it is bedtime so I can't retrieve them now, but honestly, it shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to figure this out using the charts in the back of the 40k rulebook and either Excel or a calculator, a pencil and paper to do the math. Assume a target's weapon skill, figure out the odds to hit it, assume a toughness value, figure out the odds to wound, multple the to hit percentage times the to wound percentage. That's how likely you are to wound for each attack from the given weapon.

 

For the claw you'll have two numbers each time you figure out the to hit or wound odds. The normal odds, and the odds with rerolls. Since you can only reroll to hit or to wound, you are going to have to do it both ways and see which way is better.

[Roland Durendal]

I did this math a while ago but here we go...

 

We are assuming a WL on a Thunder wolf with a WTN and a SS as base. Also assumign the charge. So...

 

WL w/ FB (against T3):

6 attacks * (2/3) = 4 hits

4 * (5/6) = 3.333 unsaved wounds

 

WL w/ WC (against T3)

6 attacks *(2/3) = 4 hits, reroll 2: 2*(2/3) = 1.333

5.3333 hits * (2/3) = 4.44 unsaved wounds

 

WL w/ FB (against T4)

6 attacks * (2/3) = 4 hits

4 * (5/6) = 3.333 unsaved wounds

 

WL w/ WC (against T4)

6 attacks *(2/3) = 4 hits, reroll 2: 2*(2/3) = 1.333

5.3333 hits * (2/3) = 3.5555533333 unsaved wounds

 

WL w/ FB (against T5)

6 attacks * (2/3) = 4 hits

4 * (2/3) = 2.666677 unsaved wounds

 

WL w/ WC (against T5)

6 attacks *(2/3) = 4 hits, reroll 2: 2*(2/3) = 1.333

5.3333 hits * (1/2) =2.6666666665 unsaved wounds

 

WL w/ WC (against T5)

6 attacks *(2/3) = 4 hits

4 hits * (1/2) =2, reroll 2: 2 (1/2) = 1: 3 unsaved wounds total

 

WL w/ FB (against T6)

6 attacks * (2/3) = 4 hits

4 * (1/2) = 2 unsaved wounds

 

WL w/ WC (against T6)

6 attacks *(2/3) = 4 hits, reroll 2: 2*(2/3) = 1.333

5.3333 hits * (1/3) =1.7777777767 unsaved wounds

 

WL w/ WC (against T6)

6 attacks *(2/3) = 4 hits

4 hits * (1/3) =1.3333 (4/3), reroll 2.667777 (8/3): (8/3) (1/3) = .888889: 2.22222 unsaved wounds total

 

WL w/ FB (against T7)

6 attacks * (2/3) = 4 hits

4 * (1/3) = 1.333333 unsaved wounds

 

WL w/ WC (against T7)

6 attacks *(2/3) = 4 hits, reroll 2: 2*(2/3) = 1.333

5.3333 hits * (1/6) = .88888888883 unsaved wounds

 

WL w/ WC (against T7)

6 attacks *(2/3) = 4 hits

4 hits * (1/6) =.666667 (2/3), reroll 3.33333333 (10/3): (10/3) (1/6) = .555555556: 1.22226 unsaved wounds total

 

This is also for charging only and doesn't factor in extended rounds of combat (though even then it would still be equal for the most part due to WC re-rolls to hit), and it doesn't factor in Sagas such as Warrior Born, which would greatly benefit the WC in extended rounds of combat.

 

Overall though, the WC is a better choice for T5 and below, and only at T6 does the FB begin to really start to pull ahead. Even then, at T6, the re-roll to wound makes the WC marginally better and at T7 and higher the difference in superiority of the FB over the WC is negligible. If you're going to use a Thunderlord with a SS and WTN, then the WC is the best choice overall.

[Chalx the grey]

I did the math too some time ago, and the bottomline is Wolf Claw is better if the model does not have a bolt pistol.

 

This means, WC is better for terminators and to combine with a Storm Shield, but if you plan to field a basic power armor Lord without a shield he will be better of with a Frost Blade!!!

[Stormbrow II]

It depends.

 

For a S4 model it's better to have the Frost Blade. Re-rolls against T6+ isn't as good as a 5+ to wound and you get the extra S against AV but not the re-rolls to AP rolls with Claws.

 

For a S5 basic model i.e. TWC the Re-rolls are better. The extra pip of S only comes into if for Instant Death against T3 models while getting the extra hits/wounds (especially against fast moving tanks) is well worth the loss of 1 point of Strength. It comes into its own against MC's that you are hitting on 3's and wounding on 5's. When to use the re-rolls comes down to whether or not something is T5+ or not. If it is then use re-rolls to wound, if not then go for re-rolls to hit.

[Wolfsrage]

It depends.

 

For a S4 model it's better to have the Frost Blade. Re-rolls against T6+ isn't as good as a 5+ to wound and you get the extra S against AV but not the re-rolls to AP rolls with Claws.

 

It is not. The Wolf Claw is always statistically better at wounding.

 

Second, you don't get to reroll AP attempts.

 

The only argument that supports a Frost Blade over a Wolf Claw is the free extra attack if you take a basic bolt pistol. I'd always take a Storm Shield though.

[CaptainForge]

I like to break down the problem to simple terms.

 

Wolf Claw = Re Roll to hit OR Re Roll to Wound

Frost Blade = +1 to Strength of User

 

Wolf Lord to hit with a WC or a FB or a Baseball bat = Equal...otherwords no advantage on the initial strikes of any weapon. He needs a 3+ or a 4+ depending on his opponent's weapon skill.

 

So in the first attempt if you have a WC you want to always choose to re roll hits when you need a 4+ to hit. You can do the math, but take my word for it...it's harder to hit with a 4+ than it is with a 3+. So advantage goes to WC, since you can't re roll to hit with the Frost Blade.

 

Now we have wounding. Here is where it gets a bit dicey ( pun intended) or to clarify, The +1 strength that a Frost Blade provides gives you a better chance to wound and it also allows you to wound one more opponent - Toughness 8. So the advantage goes to the Frost Blade on the too Wound catergory. You get a better chance to wound earlier and you get a better chance at wounding a larger opponent.

 

But since you can re roll on a WC you increase your chances of getting that wound, but you have to give up your chance to take on a WraithLord.

 

So in my opinion I would say that I would choose a WC over a Frost Blade or Axe if given a choice. Because you are increasing your chances to either hit or wound by getting the Re Roll.

 

My rule is "The more dice you roll and the more times you roll, the better the chances of doing damage"

 

Remember you have to declare whether you are re rolling to hit or wound before combat, so if you need a 4+ to hit, then declare to hit, but if you only need a 3+ to hit, then declare re roll on wounds.

[Wolfsrage]

You shouldn't be attacking a Wraithlord or C'tan though. Sure, you might end up in combat with one after a horrid chain of events. However, you're better off shooting it.

 

Nothing else is higher than T6.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

frostblade simply because its a better modeling opportunity. all the wolf claws look like crap imo and are extremely set in their stance.

 

and its wtn and frostblade so all you have to roll is 3s and 3s vs meq and 2s against geqs and you have a better chance of hurting 5+ toughness.

[Stormbrow II]

It is not. The Wolf Claw is always statistically better at wounding.

S4 re-rolled vs T6 has less chance of wounding than S5 vs T6. So you're wrong on that already. And before you slate it, Tyranids are where it comes to the fore. The Storm Shield is a required piece of kit so you are right on that count.

 

Second, you don't get to reroll AP attempts.

Where did I say that?

 

you have a better chance of hurting 5+ toughness.

Wolf Claw at S4 > S5 Frost Blade vs T5 (~51%>50%).

Wolf Claw at S4 < S5 Frost Blade vs T6 (~31%<~33%).

[Wolfsrage]

It is not. The Wolf Claw is always statistically better at wounding.

S4 re-rolled vs T6 has less chance of wounding than S5 vs T6. So you're wrong on that already. And before you slate it, Tyranids are where it comes to the fore. The Storm Shield is a required piece of kit so you are right on that count.

 

Second, you don't get to reroll AP attempts.

Where did I say that?

 

you have a better chance of hurting 5+ toughness.

Wolf Claw at S4 > S5 Frost Blade vs T5 (~51%>50%).

Wolf Claw at S4 < S5 Frost Blade vs T6 (~31%<~33%).

 

Ah, crap. For some reason I wasn't calculating 31% properly. I blame it on 7:30 am.

 

What is this referring to then?

 

you get the extra S against AV but not the re-rolls to AP rolls with Claws.

 

AV = Armor Value & AP = Armor Penetration... right?

[moltenchicken]

Based on the numbers above and assuming a storm shield and Wolftooth necklace I think that its as simple as saying that if the toughness if 2 higher than the model's strength then the AXE is better but if its only 1 higher, even, or lower then the CLAW is better. You can also get into penetrating and such but I wouldn't really use my wold lord for that.

[Stormbrow II]

AV = Armor Value & AP = Armor Penetration... right?

Good catch - I was editing the post and switched 'AV' for 'AP' for some reason.

 

It should read you get the +1 S against vehicles but not re-rolls to damage them. There, that makes more sense.

 

You can also get into penetrating and such but I wouldn't really use my wold lord for that

No you shouldn't. She probably wouldn't be impressed. Just remember to wear a condom - you don't know where she's been.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

as simple as saying that if the toughness if 2 higher than the model's strength then the AXE is better but if its only 1 higher, even, or lower then the CLAW is better.

 

I am new to this, so while I know Space Wolves real well, I am not too familiar with other codexes. Are there many Toughness 7 creatures in use in armies? I ask because on a thunder wolf mount a wolf claw has Strength 5. If there are barely any Toughness 7 models in use, then a wolf claw is the obvious and clear choice for a mounted lord with a storm shield.

[moltenchicken]

I think that most tyranids are 6 (or lower) and then for other races there are a few 8s. I dont know of any 7s. I like the claw on my lord.

[Stormbrow II]

If there are barely any Toughness 7 models in use, then a wolf claw is the obvious and clear choice for a mounted lord with a storm shield.

Yup, as I've been saying.

 

I prefer the Claw's re-rolls to the Blade and Warrior Born saga as I'm a huge fan of Saga of Majesty. Re-rolling your Ld tests makes them a fantastic tarpit and the Claws re-rolls helps to make up for the loss of the extra attacks you get from Warrior Born.