The dirt-cheap Biker Command Squad...

[ShinyRhino]

Hey all.

I've read a bout a zillion threads about Biker Command Squads, how tokit them for close combat, the dangers of sinking too many points into them, etc etc etc.

 

In my quest to switch to a fully-fast army list, I'm thinking of building a dirt cheap Biker Command Squad. No power weapons, no special shooting, etc. Just four Veterans with bolt pistol/chainsword, and an Apothecary. It runs at 205 points, which is just shy of the cost of 8 Troops-choice bikers without upgrades.

However, it's designed largely as a hard-to-kill backstab unit. I'd hope to use it by charging into existing combats. My Troops Bikers tend to always get caught or forced into a melee, no matter what I do. T5 and a powerfist or power weapon does alright for holding my own for a turn, but after that I get swamped. The cheap Biker Command Squad gets a whole slew of attacks that can add to combat resolution scores. Each Veteran has two base attacks, one extra for the bp/chainsword combo, and another for charging. That's 20 attacks at I4 into an existing melee. After the first round of a combat, all the power weapons/fists SHOULD be tied up with the original unit, so no power attacks coming back at my command squad to deny FNP rolls.

The rest of the game, these guys lay low in support, firing twin-linked bolters, or turbo-boosting around the backfield for cover saves on an open board.

 

Another option I'd like to explore is taking the Company Standard for rerolls on failed Morale/Pinning tests. Nothing sucks more in a fast army than failed Morale tests. It's an inexpensive upgrade that has major utility in a fast-mover list like this.

 

Finally, if I'm really liberal with points, I could snag meltabombs for each Veteran (not the Apoth). Very cheap upgrade, with a lot of utility. The one questionhere, though, is when I'd want to be charging a vehicle. I lose out on all those attacks I have (20 on the charge, remember?). Probably not a wise choice against a transport where the occupants would tarpit me on the opponent's turn, but the meltabombs would be nice against Loganwing/Deathwing forces, against which my deluge of basic attacks wouldn't do more than scratch TDA paintjobs. I can zoom the command squad around the backfield, strapping meltabombs to Predators and suchlike.

 

i feel like this would be a nice unit for my Biker Captain to attach to. Typically, i slap him in with a troops Bike squad, and he loses a lot of his effectiveness as a close combat beast. I kit mine with artificer armor, and a relic blade at the minimum. When targeting the same sort of units the command squad excels at hammering down, he adds further carnage, and takes advantage of the FNP rolls on failed 2+ armor saves.

 

Does this make sense to anyone else? I'm not after a Death Star unit here. I'm looking more for an IG-88 Assassin Droid. lol.

[Duce]

Try even adding in a powerweapon on each of the 4 vets, its only 60 points more and it means they'll clean up quicker. heck even 2 power weapons would be a combat booster for you and the other 2 can soak wounds.

[Koremu]

If you are taking no upgrades whatsoever, you might as well have the regular Biker Squad with 8 guys; more wounds compensates for not having FNP, and gives you more Bolter Shots, which compensates for the loss of 3 CC attacks.

 

Click the "Koremu is more eloquent" quote in my .sig and it will lead you to a thread where I talk about Biker Command Squads. The short form is that to make the unit worthwhile you have to use them to do something the regular Biker Squad doesn't do.

 

This means that while "don't over-equip" is good advice for Biker Command Squads, so is "don't under-equip". You have to use their advantages in terms of equipment to justify their use.

[mowglie]

The short form is that to make the unit worthwhile you have to use them to do something the regular Biker Squad doesn't do.

 

100% agreed.

 

I'd additionally say that the 8-man bike squad is scoring, so it already does something the command squad doesn't.

[ShinyRhino]

Good points, all.

 

The part I'm trying to reconcile is the fact that the command squad has 15 base attacks. The 8-man squad has nine.

 

I already run two 8-man squads with attack bikes, so scoring troops aren't in short supply. That's info I neglected to mention. My bad.

 

Another fact I'm trying to reconcile is that as soon as I start taking offensive upgrades like power weapons, I tend to feel obligated to defend them against shooting, so the temptation lends itself to storm shields, and I've suddenly built a cookie cutter Death Star unit that attracts a lot of fire.

 

I guess the role I envision for these guys is as a "rescue squad". A durable, counter assault unit. If my shootier Troops units get locked up by a unit that doesn't massacre them in the first turn of combat, this command squad can charge in, apply a large number of attacks, and turn the combat res result on its head.

Of course, with inly basic attacks against MEQ, I'm looking at 20 attacks applied, 10 hit, 5 wound, and only 1-2 kills. Ouch! A pair of power weapons would definitely help out, or even a single powerfist. Hmmmm.

[Gaz1858]

So your planning on holding back with this unit and charging in where needded?

 

For your 205 points wouldnt 5 Attack Bikes be just as good, maybe better?

 

The Attack Bikes would be better at range given their 5 Heavy Bolters and 5 Twin-Linked Bolters. 20 shots, 15 at strength 5 to your Command Squads 5 at S4. In combat the unit on the charge wouldnt need to fear return hits as theyd be charging an existing combat (presumably) and will dish out 15 attacks on the charge. 10 thereafter.

 

Wound allocation will also work out better as each unsaved wound means one dead command squad member whereas you can allocate the wounds to unwounded models and keep the AB running.

 

The only bit i see the HQ being better is the FNP.

[mowglie]

The part I'm trying to reconcile is the fact that the command squad has 15 base attacks. The 8-man squad has nine.

 

Realistically, the command squad has 20 attacks, the 8-man squad has 17. Not so much in it.

 

If my bikes get caught in combat beyond the turn I charge, I've probably done something disastrously wrong, no?

[Jackelope King]

There is one use I must concede for this idea: against anyone who isn't an assault specialist, you'll tie the enemy up pretty much indefinitely. 5 guys with T5, 3+ saves, and FNP are surprisingly resilient (until power weapons come into play).

 

But 20 WS4 S4 attacks on the charge, non-power weapon, are going to do basically nothing. You know how devastating a Tactical squad is on the charge? Yeah, that's what these guys will do: start a slap-fest with the enemy. A guy at the local shop really likes his Assault Marines, and I won't tell you how many slap-fests I've seen those guys get into with Tactical Squads that drag on for turns upon turns. And they at least are swinging 30 attacks on the charge. This squad you describe will be hoping and praying that the one wound they're probably going to dish out every turn will be the one that will trigger the failed leadership check.

 

With Bike Command Squads, it really is "go big or go home".

[ShinyRhino]

So your planning on holding back with this unit and charging in where needded?

 

For your 205 points wouldnt 5 Attack Bikes be just as good, maybe better?

 

The Attack Bikes would be better at range given their 5 Heavy Bolters and 5 Twin-Linked Bolters. 20 shots, 15 at strength 5 to your Command Squads 5 at S4. In combat the unit on the charge wouldnt need to fear return hits as theyd be charging an existing combat (presumably) and will dish out 15 attacks on the charge. 10 thereafter.

 

Wound allocation will also work out better as each unsaved wound means one dead command squad member whereas you can allocate the wounds to unwounded models and keep the AB running.

 

The only bit i see the HQ being better is the FNP.

 

That would be an interesting option, if it were legal. Attack Bike Squadrons cap at 3 Attack Bikes. Attempting to coordinate the application of a 3-bike, and a 2-bike unit into a similar situation is something I'd prefer not to deal with, lol.

 

 

I think I'll have to proxy the basic Command Squad for a few games, and then make my judgements. I can see them being really great against masses of cheap grunts, like IG Blobs. I can also see them being a major pain in the backside for MEQ units that are heavily tooled for shooting.

 

How much mitigation do you think attaching my Biker Captain to the barebones Command Squad would give me? He swings that Relic Blade at I5, WS6, S6. Good for at least two or three models a turn, with no armor saves. Those are basically guaranteed combat res points against the types if units I'd be throwing theis command squad at.

[ShinyRhino]

The part I'm trying to reconcile is the fact that the command squad has 15 base attacks. The 8-man squad has nine.

 

Realistically, the command squad has 20 attacks, the 8-man squad has 17. Not so much in it.

 

If my bikes get caught in combat beyond the turn I charge, I've probably done something disastrously wrong, no?

 

Dunno. In a vacuum, you could say you never allow yourself to be charged. Realistically, there are times when it's 100% impossible to avoid due to terrain, models, and battlefield situations.

If I advance my meltagun bike unit in order to splatter a Rhino, the passengers will typically charge me, since tying up meltagunners in close combat for ages is preferable for the opponent, since they're 100% useless in melee. This situation tends to happen to me quite a bit. I might break out of the fight after a turn or three, but I'd prefer to break out after just one full turn of combat.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

command squad with bikes:x3 FL+ x2 MB for what? like 230, it's cheaper and more "flexible" than my x4 PG bike Command squad, at 265

[Koremu]

The part I'm trying to reconcile is the fact that the command squad has 15 base attacks. The 8-man squad has nine.

 

Realistically, the command squad has 20 attacks, the 8-man squad has 17. Not so much in it.

 

If my bikes get caught in combat beyond the turn I charge, I've probably done something disastrously wrong, no?

and the Biker Squad has 6 extra Twin-Linked Bolter Shots, which more than makes up for the differential.

 

You don't have to overtool to get the most out of the Command Squad. Take a Champion (WS5 Power Weapon is never going to be a bad idea for the role your are envisaging), and a Storm Shield, maybe upgrade a third guy with a Power Fist. For the points investment and risk/reward curve, you're better taking the one or two upgraded bods in the unit and relying on wound allocation, presence of the Captain, Cover Saves, and FNP to carry you through fire.

[mowglie]

The part I'm trying to reconcile is the fact that the command squad has 15 base attacks. The 8-man squad has nine.

 

Realistically, the command squad has 20 attacks, the 8-man squad has 17. Not so much in it.

 

If my bikes get caught in combat beyond the turn I charge, I've probably done something disastrously wrong, no?

and the Biker Squad has 6 extra Twin-Linked Bolter Shots, which more than makes up for the differential.

 

You don't have to overtool to get the most out of the Command Squad. Take a Champion (WS5 Power Weapon is never going to be a bad idea for the role your are envisaging), and a Storm Shield, maybe upgrade a third guy with a Power Fist. For the points investment and risk/reward curve, you're better taking the one or two upgraded bods in the unit and relying on wound allocation, presence of the Captain, Cover Saves, and FNP to carry you through fire.

 

Yeah, I wouldn't go with less than Champion, Storm Shield, Fist, and a Relic Blade on the Captain. 260 points vs 205.

 

How much mitigation do you think attaching my Biker Captain to the barebones Command Squad would give me?

 

Quite a lot, but you can attach him to an 8-man bike squad too!

 

The part I'm trying to reconcile is the fact that the command squad has 15 base attacks. The 8-man squad has nine.

 

Realistically, the command squad has 20 attacks, the 8-man squad has 17. Not so much in it.

 

If my bikes get caught in combat beyond the turn I charge, I've probably done something disastrously wrong, no?

 

Dunno. In a vacuum, you could say you never allow yourself to be charged. Realistically, there are times when it's 100% impossible to avoid due to terrain, models, and battlefield situations.

If I advance my meltagun bike unit in order to splatter a Rhino, the passengers will typically charge me, since tying up meltagunners in close combat for ages is preferable for the opponent, since they're 100% useless in melee. This situation tends to happen to me quite a bit. I might break out of the fight after a turn or three, but I'd prefer to break out after just one full turn of combat.

 

The bike command squad in question doesn't have a meltagun.

 

How many games out of 100 do you reckon you're going to be unable to prevent your opponent charging them? You can use that to weigh up the comparison.

[Corby]

How about 2 power weapons and 2 storm shields? It will give the bikers some protection from power weapons etc.

[ShinyRhino]

I'd forgotten all about the Champion option! Duhhhhh.

 

So, I'll probably go with at least the champion, apothecary, and three standard vets to test out the setup. Then swap the Company Standard, or a powerfist in from time to time.

 

The thing about attaching my captain to an 8-man biker squad is that I lose a lot of the value of what the captain does. The captain isn't charging, because the bikers with him aren't good at close combat. While a stripped-down Biker Command Squad isn't a "dedicated assault unit", they're far better than standard bikers due to FNP and higher attack numbers.

 

The Captain, Champion, three Vets with bp/ccw, and an Apothecary with bp/ccw should be more than enough to perform rescue squad duties, or surgical strikes.

[mowglie]

The thing about attaching my captain to an 8-man biker squad is that I lose a lot of the value of what the captain does. The captain isn't charging, because the bikers with him aren't good at close combat. While a stripped-down Biker Command Squad isn't a "dedicated assault unit", they're far better than standard bikers due to FNP and higher attack numbers.

 

Careful. 3 more wounds balances FNP (better vs stuff that ignores FNP, only slightly worse vs stuff that doesn't), and as I said it's usually 17 attacks vs 20 attacks.

 

It's not that much better - I certainly wouldn't say "far better", and you're losing scoring status and three twin-linked bolters already for the price.

 

Different story once you start tooling up, but don't be fooled into thinking they're good at assault because they do 20 S4 attacks. Remember, a vanilla tactical squad does 21-22 - how good does the community think they are in assault?

[Koremu]

I'd forgotten all about the Champion option! Duhhhhh.

 

So, I'll probably go with at least the champion, apothecary, and three standard vets to test out the setup. Then swap the Company Standard, or a powerfist in from time to time.

 

The thing about attaching my captain to an 8-man biker squad is that I lose a lot of the value of what the captain does. The captain isn't charging, because the bikers with him aren't good at close combat. While a stripped-down Biker Command Squad isn't a "dedicated assault unit", they're far better than standard bikers due to FNP and higher attack numbers.

 

The Captain, Champion, three Vets with bp/ccw, and an Apothecary with bp/ccw should be more than enough to perform rescue squad duties, or surgical strikes.

You're still not that much in advance of a standard bike squad. The Bikers have (reasonably) a Sgt with a WS4 S4 A2(3 on charge) Lightning Claw and 7 A1(2) Bikers, giving 14 standard attacks and 3 LC on the assault. The Vets have WS5 S4 A3(4) Power Weapon and 4 A3(4) Vets, giving 16 standard attacks and 4 PW in the same circumstance. The Bikers also get 6 extra Bolt Shots, which hit on 3+ with a re-roll - making them better than a CC attack.

 

I would strongly advise adding at least one Storm Shield (it will save lives vs. the odd krak missile and Rend, if nothing else), and another weapon upgrade. Otherwise just run the Troops choice - they are about the same and Scoring too.

 

I also don't understand what you think the Captain is losing by being with the Troops that he wouldn't by joining a Command Squad. Other than FNP (not a major concerm for a W3 2+ 3++ IC), the situations are identical.

 

Your command squad with no upgrades is just as prone to being bogged down in CC as the Troops are. Your only advantage is that for your proposed role you have more attacks and less reliance on the Bolters (better for charging into an already engaged combat), but without the Power Weapons to take advantage of that you don't actually do anything other than get bogged down yourself...

[Lysimachus]

Was just thinking I'd go:

 

Bike RB Captain

+

Biker Comm squad with:

Champ

P. Fist

2x Storm Shield

Apothecary

 

3 models with PW/PF attacks, 4 models with an invulnerable save of some sort, comm squad still not extortionate at 275 pts

 

just struck me though, if I replaced one SS guys bolt pistol with the shield and the other guys chainsword with the shield, that would make no difference at all in terms of what they could do, but would be better for messing about with wound allocation, is that right?

[ShinyRhino]

just struck me though, if I replaced one SS guys bolt pistol with the shield and the other guys chainsword with the shield, that would make no difference at all in terms of what they could do, but would be better for messing about with wound allocation, is that right?

 

Yes, I think that's right. They're technically armed differently, so would be a different "group" for wound allocation.

 

 

Another factor in the decision is the fact that in objective missions, 9 times out of 10 I combat squad my 8-man group into two smaller squads. Typically I go with the sergeant, two bolter bikers, and two special weapons in one group, while the attack bike peels off with three bolter bikers. I can't decide if the command squad's value goes up, or down in the MSU configuration. On one hand, they're stronger for the captain to ride with for melee encounters since all the other units are much smaller than 8-man plus attack bike. On the other, a combat squad of bikers that gets charged won't typically need much "rescuing" because they're likely to be dead by the time the command squad arrives to help them out.

[Warp Angel]

The one thing that a bike command squad can do that a regular bike squad can't do would be to take power weapons. You don't need to kit everyone out heavily, but one fist/hammer, and a champion turn that 5 man squad into a wrecking ball even after a couple casualties, especially if you have the captain with them.

 

Other than that, not much reason to take the command squad instead of a scoring full squad.

[ShinyRhino]

You guys have definitely sold me on including at least the Champion with his power weapon, and maybe a powerfist. I have been in the process of switching over the sergeants of my existing Troops-choice bikers to shooty weapons instead of melee weapons.

Formerly, I was using a powerfist sergeant in one squad, and a power weapon sergeant in another. i think these guys will end up swapped out for sergeant with combi-bolters, or a plasma pistol. That frees models to be used for the command squad.